Questions on Intercession of the Saints

[ozso]

You don't ask a spirit to pray for you, you ask your friends or neighbors or the saints in Heaven. Remember that God is the God of the living. You could say the Bible alone does not "prove" the intercession of saints any more than it does the existence of the Holy Trinity. No one is forcing you to ask your friends or the saints to pray for you. It is another avenue given to us by God, but I would encourage those who believe to take advantage of it. Saint Augustine did:
'So then, as we celebrate with our festive gatherings the birthday of this great man, the Lord's forerunner, the blessed John, let us ask for the help of his prayers."

E02433: Augustine of Hippo preaches in Latin a sermon on the feast of the birthday (natale) of *John the Baptist (S00020), condemning sacrilegious customs, still kept on his day, mostly by young people. Sermon 293B, preached probably in AD 401 in Car

Augustine of Hippo, Sermon 293B[In natale sancti Iohanni'On the birthday of St John']1. Natalem hodie magni hominis celebramus. Nemo, inquit scriptura, surrexit maior inter mulierum natos. Hoc de illo dixit uirginis natus: hoc testimonium perhibuit testi suo: hanc sententiam protulit iudex de...

portal.sds.ox.ac.uk

401 A.D.

That's all fourth/fifth century philosophy. For whatever reason going into the fifth century the church decided to incorporate the spirits of people who died into James 5:16.

And as I've pointed out many times the passage is "Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another". Now if the spirits of saints in heaven are to be included in that, it would mean the living in heaven are confessing their sins to us. It's plainly obvious that confessing our sins is relegated to the living on earth, rather than the living in heaven.

The only way to make James 5:16 apply to the living in heaven is to remove half of the verse ie Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another.

Or is it supposed to be that the living in haven are committing sins that they need to confess to us and each other?

 

[christian-surfer]

I only pray to Saint Anthony occasionally because he keeps hiding stuff on me and unless I pray to him he won’t tell me where it is

 

[ozso]

I only pray to Saint Anthony occasionally because he keeps hiding stuff on me and unless I pray to him he won’t tell me where it is

Sounds rather mischievous.

 

[Valletta]

That's all fourth/fifth century philosophy. For whatever reason going into the fifth century the church decided to incorporate the spirits of people who died into James 5:16.

And as I've pointed out many times the passage is "Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another". Now if the spirits of saints in heaven are to be included in that, it would mean the living in heaven are confessing their sins to us. It's plainly obvious that confessing our sins is relegated to the living on earth, rather than the living in heaven.

The only way to make James 5:16 apply to the living in heaven is to remove half of the verse ie Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another.

Or is it supposed to be that the living in haven are committing sins that they need to confess to us and each other?

Where do you get this "spirit of saints' stuff from. What is your religion? My comment in regard to James was "We are told that the prayer of a righteous man has great power. All in Heaven are righteous." As to praying for one another, I quoted Timothy:

Instructions concerning Prayer​

2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1–4 RSVCE

 

[ozso]

Where do you get this "spirit of saints' stuff from.

Okay strike that and go with saints in heaven.

My comment in regard to James was "We are told that the prayer of a righteous man has great power. All in Heaven are righteous." As to praying for one another, I quoted Timothy:

Instructions concerning Prayer​

2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1–4 RSVCE

How does that include saints in heaven? How can it be ascertained that's what Paul meant?

 

[David Lamb]

If someone has been canonized as a saint then they are a saint. Also: "61 The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church's liturgical traditions."
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 61
Likewise those in purgatory can pray for you, although the Bible does tell us the prayers of a righteous man have great power, and those in Heaven are for sure righteous. There are different kinds of prayers, while all are for God's glory, prayers for intercession are quite acceptable. Of course God hears all prayers and also lets the saints hear our prayers.

But we don't find in the bible any instructions to pray to Christians who have died. Prayer in the bible is always addressed to God. The only exceptions I can think of are where the bible records the prayers addressed to false gods, such as the praying of the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel.

 

[christian-surfer]

There are many amazing stories about saints. Some of these saints did pray to Mary etc. The catholic argument were it mentions Jesus had a brother that perhaps he was a brother in the sense of a deep friend , I can’t discount that because there’s not enough details

The false gods in the Bible such as Baal were Canaanite deities and represented very dark or decadent forces.

 

[David Lamb]

There are many amazing stories about saints. Some of these saints did pray to Mary etc. The catholic argument were it mentions Jesus had a brother that perhaps he was a brother in the sense of a deep friend , I can’t discount that because there’s not enough details

The false gods in the Bible such as Baal were Canaanite deities and represented very dark or decadent forces.

There may well be stories about people known by Roman Catholics as "saints" praying to Mary etc. but I don't find any of them in the bible.

Regarding Baal, yes I realise Baal and similar were Canaanite deities representing dark and decadent forces. I only mentioned Baal as an exception to what I had said about all prayers in the bible being addressed to almighty God. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Valletta]

That's all fourth/fifth century philosophy. For whatever reason going into the fifth century the church decided to incorporate the spirits of people who died into James 5:16.

The angels in Heaven interceded many times in the Old Testament. In Psalm 103 the angels are addressed. The saints in Heaven are not mentioned in the Old Testament. Those in Heaven do intercede for us, and the angels were joined by the saints in New Testament times.

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd of Hermas 3:5:4 [circa 80-160 A.D. 80]).

“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Origen, Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

 

[Valletta]

But we don't find in the bible any instructions to pray to Christians who have died. Prayer in the bible is always addressed to God.

The Bible is not an instruction manual. In Psalm 103 we address the angels in Heaven, and certainly Mary, as the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom, makes requests to the our true King on our behalf. Understand that we are SURROUNDED by the saints.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; RSVCE

 

[ozso]

The Bible is not an instruction manual.

Despite the fact that it is loaded with instructions. Including specific instructions from Christ on how to pray, what to pray for, and who to pray to.

 

[jas3]

Including specific instructions from Christ on how to pray, what to pray for, and who to pray to.

Then you don't pray to Christ or the Holy Spirit?

 

[ozso]

Then you don't pray to Christ or the Holy Spirit?

Personally when I pray I often use names and titles that apply to all three. One time recently I said "I love you Jesus" out loud. But that's me.

The real question is are we all instructed to and or are we supposed to pray specifically to Christ and the Holy Spirit?

The formula of prayer laid out by Christ and Paul is to pray to the Father in Jesus' name and the Holy Spirit hears our prayer and intercedes of us, basically translating even our groans to the Father (Romans 8:26).

 

[jas3]

Personally when I pray I often use names and titles that apply to all three. One time recently I said "I love you Jesus" out loud. But that's me.

Strictly speaking, Jesus never instructed us to pray to Him, nor to the Trinity together, only to the Father. Obviously there's nothing actually wrong with praying to God, nor to each Person of the Trinity, but you see that requiring an explicit instruction for something to be allowed is absurd.

The real question is are we all instructed to and or are we supposed to pray specifically to Christ and the Holy Spirit?

We are instructed to via Sacred Tradition, yes.

 

[ozso]

Strictly speaking, Jesus never instructed us to pray to Him, nor to the Trinity together, only to the Father. Obviously there's nothing actually wrong with praying to God, nor to each Person of the Trinity, but you see that requiring an explicit instruction for something to be allowed is absurd.

I'm not dictating any rules. I'm just pointing out what Christ and Paul say about prayer.

We are instructed to via Sacred Tradition, yes.

That's fine. The issue is when scripture that doesn't actually support the sacred tradition is applied to it. I think it's better to leave inapplicable scripture out of it and just say it's scared tradition period end of story.

 

[Valletta]

I'm not dictating any rules. I'm just pointing out what Christ and Paul say about prayer.

That's fine. The issue is when scripture that doesn't actually support the sacred tradition is applied to it. I think it's better to leave inapplicable scripture out of it and just say it's scared tradition period end of story.

As I've said before, there is a huge variance in Holy Scripture evidence for Christian beliefs. Many beliefs, like the Holy Trinity, are not explicitly spelled out in the Bible.

 

[ozso]

As I've said before, there is a huge variance in Holy Scripture evidence for Christian beliefs. Many beliefs, like the Holy Trinity, are not explicitly spelled out in the Bible.

The Trinity is explicitly spelled out in the Bible though. It's true that scripture doesn't use the word "trinity" and doesn't have a passage that says, the "Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God", but scripture most definitely spells it out. Jesus commands us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) as just one of many very clear passages connecting the Three. Praying to Mary and the saints has nothing like that in scripture. There's no point in trying to make it something that it's not. Just stick with it being Sacred Tradition and let it stand on those legs instead of trying to prop it up with scripture that doesn't really support it.

 

[Valletta]

The Trinity is explicitly spelled out in the Bible though. It's true that scripture doesn't use the word "trinity" and doesn't have a passage that says, the "Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God", but scripture most definitely spells it out. Jesus commands us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) as just one of many very clear passages connecting the Three. Praying to Mary and the saints has nothing like that in scripture. There's no point in trying to make it something that it's not. Just stick with it being Sacred Tradition and let it stand on those legs instead of trying to prop it up with scripture that doesn't really support it.

Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would not lead most people who knew nothing of God and picked up a Bible to conclude there was one God, three Persons. It's not explicitly stated. Saints are not found in the Old Testament, the only ones in Heaven were God and the angels, and the angels interceded many times. In the New Testament the saints are in Heaven and their prayers are spoken of. And we know that the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom makes requests of the king. My point is that the Bible does not tell us explicitly to pray and ask saints for their intercession nor does it explicitly state God is one God, three Persons. I'm not making anything up, as with most of Catholic beliefs there are passages that are supportive, for some beliefs more than others, but you're right it doesn't tell us to address the saints in our prayers. As Catholics we realize that the core of our faith was given to us before one word of the New Testament was written.

 

[ozso]

Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would not lead most people who knew nothing of God and picked up a Bible to conclude there was one God, three Persons. It's not explicitly stated. Saints are not found in the Old Testament, the only ones in Heaven were God and the angels, and the angels interceded many times. In the New Testament the saints are in Heaven and their prayers are spoken of. And we know that the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom makes requests of the king. My point is that the Bible does not tell us explicitly to pray and ask saints for their intercession nor does it explicitly state God is one God, three Persons. I'm not making anything up, as with most of Catholic beliefs there are passages that are supportive, for some beliefs more than others, but you're right it doesn't tell us to address the saints in our prayers. As Catholics we realize that the core of our faith was given to us before one word of the New Testament was written.

People did read the Bible and conclude there is one God, three persons through. The more one reads the Bible the clearer such things become. I get what you're telling me about praying to Mary and the saints. I'm as familiar with it is you are by now. But it's a Sacred Tradition that's loosely based upon scripture. If people want to add praying to Mary and their Patron Saints and their Guardian Angel and their Aunt Mabel etc in addition to praying to God, that's up to them.

 

[Valletta]

People did read the Bible and conclude there is one God, three persons through. The more one reads the Bible the clearer such things become. I get what you're telling me about praying to Mary and the saints. I'm as familiar with it is you are by now. But it's a Sacred Tradition that's loosely based upon scripture. If people want to add praying to Mary and their Patron Saints and their Guardian Angel and their Aunt Mabel etc in addition to praying to God, that's up to them.

Yes, when people ask for prayers on these forums I never think "Why don't they just go straight to God?" Our Creed, the Apostles Creed, speaks of the "communion of saints," so it is very natural to ask for prayers from them as it is asking people here on earth. From your words I think there might be a little misunderstanding in regard to Sacred Tradition. Our beliefs as Catholics come from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, we believe Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture to be the Word of God. In fact, Sacred Scripture sprang forth from the Living Sacred Tradition passed down from Jesus. Sacred Tradition was first, so we would never say Sacred Tradition comes from Sacred Scripture. We can say that various Catholic traditions, liturgical traditions, etc. may come from either Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture or both. Finally, we realize God hears all of our prayers, but too we realize how powerful the prayers of the saints are and thus often ask the saints to pray for us.