Questions on God's wrath and the Fall

[mcarans]

I have some questions about some commonly held views within Christianity:

1. How can we believe that God is just if people are born guilty deserving of God's wrath given they didn't ask to be born nor did they have any choice in whether they should be given a sinful nature?
2. How can we believe that God is all powerful if Adam's fall is more significant than Jesus's resurrection in that it is collective, damning all humans while salvation is individual, saving a small minority?

 

[Richard T]

1. Since we have a chance to repent from that sin nature, God is entirely just.

2. Who says the fall of Adam is bigger than the resurrection and saving power of Jesus? Adam was a man lower than angels. Jesus was a man lower than angels, then raised to be higher than angels. As we are children of God, heirs to God and joint heirs with Jesus, we too are now higher than angels. God has given man the choice. Why should God grant salvation to those in rebellion, to those that do not want the free gift of salvation?

You are correct about the change, the whole human race under Adam, The whole human race with Jesus is available too. If we assume that Adam had sons before the fall perhaps I would assume they too would be subject to the choice. To me it is a good deal. Plus the rewards of heaven are now in play for our service and faith. It is all just. one simply just has to choose God for a better life on earth and the better status than even Adam had.

Other evidence our status is improved under Jesus.
1 Corinthians 6:3 (KJV)
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Hebrews 1:14 (KJV)
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.​

 

[tdidymas]

I have some questions about some commonly held views within Christianity:

1. How can we believe that God is just if people are born guilty deserving of God's wrath given they didn't ask to be born nor did they have any choice in whether they should be given a sinful nature?
2. How can we believe that God is all powerful if Adam's fall is more significant than Jesus's resurrection in that it is collective, damning all humans while salvation is individual, saving a small minority?

Firstly, God Himself is the standard, and since He said He is just, we are obligated to believe it, and adjust our reasoning accordingly. God is not subject to our sense of justice. Rom. 3:4 "Let God be true, though every man be found a liar." We aren't competent to judge God. Then:

#1. Rom. 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all." and Gal. 3:22 "But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." The cause of sin is a distrust of God - Heb. 11:6 "without faith it is impossible to please God..." So then, sin becomes an obstacle to trusting God, because we find ourselves as autonomous creatures. We were made to trust God and follow His Spirit, and it takes faith in Jesus to overcome that obstacle, which is possible for the believer but impossible for the unbeliever. Therefore, a person must convert to believing in Christ, or they will be subject to the 2nd death. It shows that sin is a grave matter, and requires the supernatural power of God to defeat it. This Jesus did on the cross, and we have no recourse but to believe it. 1 Pet. 2:21, Jesus "bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness, for by His wounds we are healed."

#2. God being all powerful means that He is sovereign in all things. It doesn't mean we can sit in judgment of Him claiming He should have done thus-and-so. The basis of our relationship with God is faith. That means He set up this universe in such a way that He is hidden from our eyes. When a person is converted by the gospel, then God becomes sovereign over our life, because we are aware of Him. But if someone is an idolatrous person and unrepentant, then they will exalt themselves so that their ego reigns over them, and they are faithless. Therefore, it becomes extremely significant for every person to make a choice to surrender to God, because He is God and we are not. So then the resurrection of Christ points to the resurrection of the believer so that we understand the great privilege we are in by believing in Christ. Adam wasn't grateful enough to God for his life, so he sinned. But this privilege we are in should make us all the more grateful for the mercy and love of God. Evil exists solely to compare with the good, so that we will give thanks to God for His goodness.

Hope this helps.

 

[eleos1954]

I have some questions about some commonly held views within Christianity:

1. How can we believe that God is just if people are born guilty deserving of God's wrath given they didn't ask to be born nor did they have any choice in whether they should be given a sinful nature?
2. How can we believe that God is all powerful if Adam's fall is more significant than Jesus's resurrection in that it is collective, damning all humans while salvation is individual, saving a small minority?

People aren't born guilty. We are born into a sinful world and we will indeed sin. This is why we have a sin nature ... because of our exposure to it ... we are born into a sinful world ... it is the natural state of our world so it is natural for us to sin.

Sin is transgression of the law .... one must be of a mind of what that is. We most certainly do have a choice. Nothing is forcing us to sin ... we get tempted and often yield to the temptation. Temptation is of the devil ... God does not tempt anyone. He does allow satan to tempt us.

God looks at the heart and only He knows it ... we do not ... so that is how He is able to be just. He knows everything! The law of God is written on everyone's heart, whether they admit that or not. All will be judged by the same standard ... we know those in Christ will be fully pardoned ... however judgement is totally up to Him ... because He knows everything !!!!

Mankind was created in His image (His image is Love)

As human beings we are relational just like God. It is this capacity for a relationship with God that sets us apart from everything else God created. We were created to have a loving relationship with Him and among ourselves (family). God is love. True love must be a choice .... it can not be forced.

Even though there will be a "smaller majority" .... there will still be multitudes that are saved.

 

[St. Helens]

ADMIN HAT ON

ADMIN HAT OFF​

 

[mcarans]

1. Since we have a chance to repent from that sin nature, God is entirely just.

Thanks for your reply. If life were a law court, it would assume that defendants are guilty until proven innocent, an approach which doesn't naturally lead to believing that God is just.

God Himself is the standard, and since He said He is just, we are obligated to believe it, and adjust our reasoning accordingly. God is not subject to our sense of justice

Thanks for your reply. In that case, it seems like there is little reason to use words for which we have clear understandings when talking about God. We should invent alternative words for "just" (or "loving" etc.) that apply only to God to avoid confusion because what they look like for God is alien to our human definitions.

 

[tdidymas]

Thanks for your reply. If life were a law court, it would assume that defendants are guilty until proven innocent, an approach which doesn't naturally lead to believing that God is just.

Thanks for your reply. In that case, it seems like there is little reason to use words for which we have clear understandings when talking about God. We should invent alternative words for "just" (or "loving" etc.) that apply only to God to avoid confusion because what they look like for God is alien to our human definitions.

I reject your sarcasm. Perhaps you were convicted of the guilt of judging God, and you struck out at me, I understand that. But the point is that we have to use words the same way the Bible uses them, and not invent definitions that are based on culture or fleshly feelings or our own opinions. It's the devil that redefines words by using them out of context of what God calls right and wrong. This is why the apostle Paul wrote that in the last days men will call good evil and evil good. The real question is, are we submitted to God, or do we judge Him according to our own personal opinion?

Since Jesus said He is the only way to the Father, it means we better submit and start trusting that the Bible (the word of God) will change our thinking and how we view the world and how we understand the nature of our relationship with God. If you're looking for answers to your questions that will satisfy you before you surrender to Christ, then I'd say you may never get to that point. In my experience (50 years as a Christian), God doesn't just give out answers like popcorn. If we are willing to submit to Him and develop a deep relationship with God by following Jesus, then God is willing to give us answers we need. Otherwise, you might find that you're on your own.

 

[Richard T]

Thanks for your reply. If life were a law court, it would assume that defendants are guilty until proven innocent, an approach which doesn't naturally lead to believing that God is just.

Thanks for your reply. In that case, it seems like there is little reason to use words for which we have clear understandings when talking about God. We should invent alternative words for "just" (or "loving" etc.) that apply only to God to avoid confusion because what they look like for God is alien to our human definitions.

Sometimes ignorance of the law allows you some mercy in the court system or bureaucracy if it is something minor. God is far more just than that because no single person lacks a basic understanding about God. Thus, there is no excuse for ignorance once the rejection has been made.

Romans 1:19-22 (ESV)
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Now look at how man is born.
John 1:9 (KJV)
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

So you are lit coming into the world. At the age of accountability, once you reject God according to the Romans 1 scripture, "your foolish heart is darkened." So now you go from lit, to dark. So you have mercy up until you are presented with God and deny Him. Sounds like you are innocent until proven guilty to me. The unpardonable sin is not murder etc. it is the rejection of God. He simply allows you to choose and is not required to overturn your will on this unless you repent of your rejection of God.

If anyone is searching about God there is no injustice at all that I know of. Lots of accusations out there but no real proof because no one knows what is fully behind the veil. So there are speculations about this. For myself, I think that the unborn and other children before the age of accountability die, that they do go to heaven. Even rewards from God are likely distributed according to the foreknowledge of God, since He knows exactly what we could have accomplished had anyone lived a full life. This I can't prove, but neither can it be disproven.

As to an individual who has rejected God, I would look back at why the rejection? When did it start? If I still did not know God after that I would plead with Him for more understanding, and ask others to pray as well. I do think that honest seekers find God. Sometimes the devil may hide or create barriers though but if the heart is sincere, God will respond. I would not test God and the devil though on many extra days or years.

As the topic is justice, and of course no one asks to be born, I noticed this recently.
Matthew 27:24-25 (KJV)
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

So while man was unjust to put the most innocent person who ever lived on earth to death, God is far more just in his sentence to man. So to accuse God of injustice might seem wise, but I think when a person gets to judgment day they will be quite amazed. I can say that with confidence because every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Sadly, for some that will be too late. Too many also think that it is personal sins that are the big issue with God. They do not help, but neither do good works get you closer to God. It is all about the acceptance and free gift.

As some preachers say there is "heaven to gain and hell to lose," I would search God very carefully. Like why is the "fear of God the beginning of wisdom?

I don't know the condition of you or any reader's heart but I just implore everyone to look further as to God's perfect justice since he is all knowing, all powerful, and all present, among other things. No human has all that. It may seem unfair, but can anyone count on their own sense of unfairness or justice in heaven's court? Humans have been proven wrong so many times while God remains still at least in part an unknown quantity except by faith. God bless.

 

[mcarans]

I reject your sarcasm.

What I said wasn't meant as sarcasm. It was a real observation.

"Martin Luther famously distinguished between a theology of glory and a theology of the cross. Whereas a theology of the cross foregrounds the suffering of Christ crucified, a theology of glory desires power through works. Among the theses of Luther’s Heidelberg Disputation is this: “A theology of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theology of the cross calls the thing what it actually is.” In other words, theologians of the cross cannot equivocate when faced with good and evil; they must call a thing what it is." (Calling a Thing What It Actually Is - Working Preacher from Luther Seminary) If we call actions good that in any other situation would be regarded as evil simply because God was supposed to have commanded them, then we are in danger of calling those actions good if someone else does them now and claims to be commanded by God. Hence, I think we should use words the way we have defined them and not redefine them when applied to the Bible or God because those definitions did not come from nowhere. Since all positive inspiration comes from God, those definitions we have settled on have almost certainly been guided by God.

God is far more just than that because no single person lacks a basic understanding about God.

Thanks for your reply. What evidence do you have for the statement above? If the Bible is the means by which people are to know God, there are many Christians who don't read the Bible let alone non-Christians and there are many who've never set foot in a church. The Christian witness is fragmented and confused and hence often ineffective so I can't see where this basic understanding that every single person has is supposed to come from.

 

[tdidymas]

What I said wasn't meant as sarcasm. It was a real observation.

"Martin Luther famously distinguished between a theology of glory and a theology of the cross. Whereas a theology of the cross foregrounds the suffering of Christ crucified, a theology of glory desires power through works. Among the theses of Luther’s Heidelberg Disputation is this: “A theology of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theology of the cross calls the thing what it actually is.” In other words, theologians of the cross cannot equivocate when faced with good and evil; they must call a thing what it is." (Calling a Thing What It Actually Is - Working Preacher from Luther Seminary) If we call actions good that in any other situation would be regarded as evil simply because God was supposed to have commanded them, then we are in danger of calling those actions good if someone else does them now and claims to be commanded by God. Hence, I think we should use words the way we have defined them and not redefine them when applied to the Bible or God because those definitions did not come from nowhere. Since all positive inspiration comes from God, those definitions we have settled on have almost certainly been guided by God.

If it wasn't sarcasm, and you wrote what you sincerely believe, then I would say you misunderstand what is said. Words are defined by the context in which they are used. This is for any conversation in all languages. There are connotations, nuances, idioms, etc. We have to try and understand what's being said. If we try to force a definition on a word in scripture just because that definition exists in the English language dictionary, then we are erroneously applying definitions of words. The proper way to understand scripture (or any conversation for that matter) is to pay lots of attention to the context of what is being said.

I made an attempt to answer your questions according to what the Bible says, but you seem to reject it. That's your prerogative. I naturally thought that your curt answer was sarcasm, since it appears you disregarded my initial answer. If my answer is not satisfactory, then why not ask questions about it? But if not, then I guess I'm done here.

 

[Jonaitis]

I have some questions about some commonly held views within Christianity:

1. How can we believe that God is just if people are born guilty deserving of God's wrath given they didn't ask to be born nor did they have any choice in whether they should be given a sinful nature?
2. How can we believe that God is all powerful if Adam's fall is more significant than Jesus's resurrection in that it is collective, damning all humans while salvation is individual, saving a small minority?

You know, these are some important questions that people don't think a lot about, or if they do they avoid directly following its implications and attempt to explain it in a way that they have been convinced it is not otherwise.

It is astonishing that Jesus stated that the way is narrow and the gate is small that leads to everlasting life, leaving few to find it, when that implies that most of humanity created in the image of God under this illustration is for certain doomed to perish away from his glorious presence in eternity. Was it in the timeless and decretive purpose of Yahweh to create a whole race of creatures only for them to be eternally damned as the object of his wrathful vengeance? Or furthermore, be born under a broken covenantal and federal transaction that all but their first ancestors were not solely responsible for? Surely, in one sense, Yahweh wins in that he is seen in the end as the Judge of wickedness and the Savior of sinners; but in another sense, sin wins in that death swallows up a majority of those created as the crown and glory of his works intended by his original design to render the highest praise to his jealous name among the other animals created on this planet. Such a rigid framework may bring the highest comfort for those that believe themselves to be numbered among the redeemed, considering themselves to feast in the bliss and glory of this divine reality, but terrifying for the mind, though finite, to contemplate in the attempt to grasp its comprehensive horror for those outside. The love that breeds within the renewed heart of a believer does not fully develop until it become more aware of the whole picture of this worldview, and like you, begins to feel a love that extends beyond the supposed description of this same divine reality for those considered unworthy. What do we make of this? Shall we like Job stay silent if our case has no standing before him? What would his answer be if we could present it? Would it fully capture what we are ignorant of in this, or would he state that he is sovereign and shall do whatever he pleases?

So I understand your concern in this post and am still, myself, trying to figure out what is satisfactory to answer this profound dilemma!

I hope you find the answers. Cheers!

 

[Jeff Saunders]

People aren't born guilty. We are born into a sinful world and we will indeed sin. This is why we have a sin nature ... because of our exposure to it ... we are born into a sinful world ... it is the natural state of our world so it is natural for us to sin.

Sin is transgression of the law .... one must be of a mind of what that is. We most certainly do have a choice. Nothing is forcing us to sin ... we get tempted and often yield to the temptation. Temptation is of the devil ... God does not tempt anyone. He does allow satan to tempt us.

God looks at the heart and only He knows it ... we do not ... so that is how He is able to be just. He knows everything! The law of God is written on everyone's heart, whether they admit that or not. All will be judged by the same standard ... we know those in Christ will be fully pardoned ... however judgement is totally up to Him ... because He knows everything !!!!

Mankind was created in His image (His image is Love)

As human beings we are relational just like God. It is this capacity for a relationship with God that sets us apart from everything else God created. We were created to have a loving relationship with Him and among ourselves (family). God is love. True love must be a choice .... it can not be forced.

Even though there will be a "smaller majority" .... there will still be multitudes that are saved.

"We were created to have a loving relationship with Him" If you really believe that, and I do, then why do you say that only a smaller majority will be saved ? do you think that God did not read Luke 14:28-32 did God not take his own advice and have a complete plan before he created this creation? If we were created to have relationship with the Father do you think that he could not do that and will settle for what he can get? The way I see it if God wanted all to have relationship with him if that was the plan then God gets all he desires. Is 14:24 " Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen"

 

[eleos1954]

"We were created to have a loving relationship with Him" If you really believe that, and I do, then why do you say that only a smaller majority will be saved ? do you think that God did not read Luke 14:28-32 did God not take his own advice and have a complete plan before he created this creation? If we were created to have relationship with the Father do you think that he could not do that and will settle for what he can get? The way I see it if God wanted all to have relationship with him if that was the plan then God gets all he desires. Is 14:24 " Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen"

There will still be multitudes saved ... however more lost than saved.

Jesus said it will be like in the days of Noah ..... when God made judgement and sent the flood ... most living at that time were lost.

It's not that God "settles for what he can get" .... He gives everyone the opportunity to choose and gives them over to their choices.

God indeed put the plan of salvation in place (as a gift) but a person needs to receive the gift. As much as God desires us to be saved, He will not force salvation on us.

His desire is that all would choose to be saved ... not all do.

Luke 14:28-32 in context is talking about discipleship ... not salvation.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

There will still be multitudes saved ... however more lost than saved.

Jesus said it will be like in the days of Noah ..... when God made judgement and sent the flood ... most living at that time were lost.

It's not that God "settles for what he can get" .... He gives everyone the opportunity to choose and gives them over to their choices.

God indeed put the plan of salvation in place (as a gift) but a person needs to receive the gift. As much as God desires us to be saved, He will not force salvation on us.

His desire is that all would choose to be saved ... not all do.

Luke 14:28-32 in context is talking about discipleship ... not salvation.

So do you think that Isaiah 14:24/ Isaiah 46:11/ Psalms 86:9/Psalms 115:3/ are all either allergies or metaphors? Because these say that God gets what he desires and you say no he doesn’t.

 

[KevinT]

I have some questions about some commonly held views within Christianity:

1. How can we believe that God is just if people are born guilty deserving of God's wrath given they didn't ask to be born nor did they have any choice in whether they should be given a sinful nature?

I think built into your question is a presumption about the sovereignty of God and questions about predestination. Many believe that everything that happens is exactly as God wanted and foreordained it to be. But not everyone follows this mode of thinking -- I personally think it causes all sorts of problems.

Another issue is what is mean by the "wrath of God." I have heard "wrath" framed as God finally getting sick and tired of putting up with mankind and smiting them with His almighty power. This makes God to be a capricious totalitarian that one must serve out of fear. An alternative framework that does better for my understanding is that God's universe has certain principles lovingly set up for the benefit of all. Like the ocean in which all the molecules follow physical laws of mass, momentum, temperature etc. It is a source of beauty. But when a surfer is in the wrong place at the wrong time and is slammed to the ocean floor by the tremendous force of a crashing wave, she experiences firsthand the "wrath" of the ocean, and by extension the "wrath" of God. To avoid this, the surfer may learn from an instructor how to work with the wave and thereby have the time of their lives. Watching a skillful surfer is amazing, and they sure seem to enjoy themselves. The actions of the ocean are morally neutral, though it has taken many a sailor to their graves.

So now consider a baby born into universe full of possibilities for success and failure. Is it right for such an infant to be born? Is it wrong? I would argue that it is morally neutral. It is what it is. Did our creator do wrong by creating mankind with a built-in ability to reproduce? I would argue that this was a positive thing. And every child is born completely ignorant, and gradually learns the skills needed for survival. And likewise, the infant knows nothing about God our creator, but has an opportunity over time to learn of Him.

So I dislike questions like "Why is it fair for God to condemn those who never asked to be born?" Instead, I see this as God universally trying to teach everyone how to succeed, like the surfer learning to surf big waves, and the infant learning to walk and then run. Any "condemnation" is not some arbitrary decision, but rather an outworking of the principles of God's universe. When I trip on my shoelaces and skin my knee, technically God was responsible for that because He established gravity etc. But instead of blaming him, I try to learn to keep my shoes tied.

KT

 

[eleos1954]

So do you think that Isaiah 14:24/ Isaiah 46:11/ Psalms 86:9/Psalms 115:3/ are all either allergies or metaphors? Because these say that God gets what he desires and you say no he doesn’t.

God's desire for people to have free will
God doesn't want forced allegiance, and He gives people the option to choose to accept Jesus' sacrifice or not ... some do not.

Our decisions should be rooted in trust in the Lord, wisdom, and a desire to live in accordance with His will. As we face various choices in our journey. By seeking God’s wisdom and following His path, we can make choices that align with His plans for our life.

Our CHOICES ... God allows them even though they may not align with His desires.

Our Creator reigns supreme, God is sovereign, but within that sovereignty he allows humans freewill, which opens the door to the LORD's permissive will. In other words, God permits humans to make decisions or conduct themselves in a way that isn't in accord with God's perfect will.

• Deuteronomy 30:19: "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live!"
  
  
• Joshua 24:15: "Choose for yourself today whom you will serve".
  
  
• Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding".

 

[eleos1954]

So do you think that Isaiah 14:24/ Isaiah 46:11/ Psalms 86:9/Psalms 115:3/ are all either allergies or metaphors? Because these say that God gets what he desires and you say no he doesn’t.

• God allows us to make choices ... even if it is against His desire for us.
• Deuteronomy 30:19: "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live!"
  
  
• Joshua 24:15: "Choose for yourself today whom you will serve".
  
  
• Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding".

 

[Jeff Saunders]

God's desire for people to have free will
God doesn't want forced allegiance, and He gives people the option to choose to accept Jesus' sacrifice or not ... some do not.

Our decisions should be rooted in trust in the Lord, wisdom, and a desire to live in accordance with His will. As we face various choices in our journey. By seeking God’s wisdom and following His path, we can make choices that align with His plans for our life.

Our CHOICES ... God allows them even though they may not align with His desires.

Our Creator reigns supreme, God is sovereign, but within that sovereignty he allows humans freewill, which opens the door to the LORD's permissive will. In other words, God permits humans to make decisions or conduct themselves in a way that isn't in accord with God's perfect will.

• Deuteronomy 30:19: "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live!"
  
  
• Joshua 24:15: "Choose for yourself today whom you will serve".
  
  
• Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding".

Wow the whole two wills of God thing , show me in scripture that God has said he is divided and has two wills. This was invented as a way around 1Tim 2:3-6 that plainly says it’s Gods will that none parish, but in order to have a eternal torture chamber you have to have a way around scripture and invent two wills of God as if he is conflicted with himself. Yes you are correct that God doesn’t violate anyone’s will , but he doesn’t have to, he has all eternity to show man his error and to win them over with his love, which they will be able to see after their mortal body is dead and they see God as he is not as who they think he is or their misconceptions of who God is. You are making the mistake of thinking that God can only work on us while in the mortal body. No place in scripture does it say you can only accept Jesus in the mortal body.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

• God allows us to make choices ... even if it is against His desire for us.
• Deuteronomy 30:19: "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live!"
  
  
• Joshua 24:15: "Choose for yourself today whom you will serve".
  
  
• Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding".

So what you are saying is our will is stronger than Gods will? I don’t give man that much credit I believe Gods will is stronger than any man and God has all of eternity to get his will done.

 

[mcarans]

I appreciate the continued discussion on this post. It is helpful to see the different approaches people of different Christian backgrounds take to these questions.

If we try to force a definition on a word in scripture just because that definition exists in the English language dictionary, then we are erroneously applying definitions of words.

How do you envisage basing our definitions on the definition in Scripture? How would we define love for example based solely on Scripture?

I see this as God universally trying to teach everyone how to succeed, like the surfer learning to surf big waves, and the infant learning to walk and then run.

How do you define "success"? How do you understand eternal conscious torment - if it is forever, how does it teach people to succeed? What happens for those who die young and do not have an opportunity to "succeed"?