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Orthodox dogma does not attempt to explain how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ;
their really are virtual none between orthodox and catholics--
yes, that's a very interesting point you have, and I would tend to agree with you on that. Perhaps our strengths could be synergistic if we just work together on winning souls, but I doubt the Orthodox Church wants anything to do with the Catholic Church.JasonS said:What I think is the biggest difference between Catholics and Orthodox today are philosophical differences. The Orthodox are geared more towards ascetism and mysticism while Catholics are geared more towards rationalism. Both appeal to different mindsets. Some people prefer a more mystical experience in their worship while others like a more rational approach to holy living. I think that's why Pope John Paul II correctly states that Catholics and Orthodox are like "two lungs" belonging to the same body.
On their own I doubt Catholics and Orthodox would be able to appeal to everyone everywhere. But united the Church would be an incredibly powerful force for good on the planet. Too bad that's not likely to happen any time soon but one day.....who knows. God works in mysterious ways.
That's my over simplified take on things.
Rising_Suns said:yes, that's a very interesting point you have, and I would tend to agree with you on that. Perhaps our strengths could be synergistic if we just work together on winning souls, but I doubt the Orthodox Church wants anything to do with the Catholic Church.
hi elizabeth,Did you know that almost all Greek Orthodox Priests (and a lot of Antiochian also) will deliberately tell Catholics to return to the Catholic Church and not convert?
Yes, I've seen where this conversion has gone in other threads, and I do not want to participate in it here. Lets just concede that both our Church's have sought to evangelize each other (the RCC doesn't view the EO Church as heretics though, but they view us that way)In Russia, there is a concerted effort by the Catholics (especially the SSPX) to convert the Orthodox to Catholicism.
Rising_Suns said:hi elizabeth,
May I ask why is this so? If the Orthodox believe that their is the one true Church, and that the differences between RRC and EO are great, why would they not want Catholic converts?
Yes, I've seen where this conversion has gone in other threads, and I do not want to participate in it here. Lets just concede that both our Church's have sought to evangelize each other
also, I don't believe the SSPX is in union with Rome.
Chapter IV of Session 13 of the Council of Trent, makes Transubstantiation dogma.Rising_Suns said:Neither does Catholic doctrine.
...as DJ H said, it is merely terminology.
Rising_Suns said:hi elizabeth,
May I ask why is this so? If the Orthodox believe that their is the one true Church, and that the differences between RRC and EO are great, why would they not want Catholic converts?
Yes, I've seen where this conversion has gone in other threads, and I do not want to participate in it here. Lets just concede that both our Church's have sought to evangelize each other (the RCC doesn't view the EO Church as heretics though, but they view us that way)
also, I don't believe the SSPX is in union with Rome.
JasonS said:I think its because the Greek state has a law against prosyletism which applies to everyone. Outside Greece however, its a different story. There are loose canons on both sides. For example the Orthodox set up a bishop in Vienna which has been Catholic for a thousands years. According to one priest, the number of orthodox in vienna you could fit in a phone booth. Or the Greek Church in Sicily sending out pamphlets urging people to return to their byzantine heritage. Like I said, loose canons on both sides.
Lotar said:Chapter IV of Session 13 of the Council of Trent, makes Transubstantiation dogma.
Aria said:What is wrong with a Greek Church asking their former parishioners to return home? There are a lot of Italian-Greeks who converted to Catholicism over the centuries.
yes but "transubstantiation" is merely a term to describe the same mystery that the Orthodox Church believes. The difference is only that we use that term than they don't. terminology.Lotar said:Chapter IV of Session 13 of the Council of Trent, makes Transubstantiation dogma.
How would this not apply to the Orthodox Church? You don't use the term "purgatory", but you can believe in a state of purification after death. it's the same thing. Again, terminology.If you don't earn an A and miss heaven, you believe that you can always make purgatory with a B, C, or D. (I'm being silly here to make a point). We Orthodox don't believe in Purgatory, so we have to try to be the best we can on earth and faithfully follow Christ. Time on earth is for repentance.
JasonS said:Well Catholics could say the same thing about Orthodox Christians in Greece. Alot of Latins were forced to convert there too. Or anywhere else for that matter.
Rising_Suns said:yes but "transubstantiation" is merely a term to describe the same mystery that the Orthodox Church believes. The difference is only that we use that term than they don't.
How would this not apply to the Orthodox Church? You don't use the term "purgatory", but you can believe in a state of purification after death. it's the same thing.
I would also be carefull in saying that our Church makes it easier to get to heaven; that is almost putting us in the same boat with Protestants. I would like to remind you that as JasonS has pointed out, the Catholic takes a very thourough and rationale approach in its teachings to make sure it covers all the possible angles and issues within modern society (contraception for instance); there is much that we are required to adhere to, especially for those living within society.
No, they clearly defined the process of transubstantiation, right down to using the metaphysical language. For example, "...and this sacred synod now declares this anew-that through the consecration of the bread and wine a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ..." etc.JasonS said:It's not as simple as that. This is from the newadvent website:
The Council of Trent (Sess. XIII, cap. iv; can. ii) not only accepted as an inheritance of faith the truth contained in the idea, but authoritatively confirmed the "aptitude of the term" to express most strikingly the legitimately developed doctrinal concept.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3
So they merely stated that Transubstantiation was an acceptable term to describe the mystery of the eucharist. Mostly in response to protestant attacks on it. Again, this has to do with the western mindset's need to rationalize and explain everything. The East remain prefer to say its a mystery thats beyond trying to explain so there's no use in trying. But both believe in the real presence.
Interestingly the catechism of the Catholic Church presents it back in its more mystical form:
1357 We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In so doing, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.
1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:
- thanksgiving and praise to the Father;
- the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
- the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.
If the Eastern Orthodox Church is not heretical, according to the RCC...Rising_Suns said:Yes, I've seen where this conversion has gone in other threads, and I do not want to participate in it here. Lets just concede that both our Church's have sought to evangelize each other (the RCC doesn't view the EO Church as heretics though, but they view us that way)
It's so sad that you have to bring in ad hominum arguments -- the same one that geocajun and nyj have used. Now where is that head banging smilie
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