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Questions from a former Christian

Key

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Hello Key and thank you!

And thank you for this reply. It is heartwarming to see a response, and it seems you have responded to everyone in kind. I am dutifully impressed. I am sure we will enjoy having you here on the forms.

Again, my question is, how can anyone who has the least bit of compassion and reason, believe in eternal hell-burning AND do nothing about it?...... This I simply cannot understand. There must be some serious problem somewhere...

But they are doing something about it. They are trying to save the souls of their family and those close to them.

However, some Christians do not believe in Eternal Fire and Brimstone, and all that regarding hell. I for one, see no reason to believe Hell is a place of Fire and Burning, and where daemons with pitch forks poke you and prod you. That reeks of Pagan influence.

On the Bible. But I got very disappointed in the Bible... Besides, the Bible and Christians say Christians are very special people: selected, saints, new creatures, children of God etc. Not so in life as I see it.

Yes.. that human factor tends to set in, and we wake up and realize that Christains are just like everyone else, prone to the same levels of corruption, ego, pride, greed, etc, when all things are said and done, we are just humans.

Very vague. Seems like trying to justify something that cannot be justified.

It's not really that vague, Paul touches on this, but there is not an in dept explanation, it falls into the category of there are those that have not heard, and they will be judge by Faith and their heart, not the Law of Sin. However those that have heard and rejected, have no hope.

They certainly did! As well as answers of all others who posted here.

Always a pleasure. I hope you find what will bring you joy and peace.

God Bless

Key
 
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AformerChristian

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I do have some not-so-close family members who do not believe in God and do not follow Jesus Christ and yes they will go to hell. They know how I feel about it and that I am a christian and follow Christ and I know that they do not. We don't dwell on it but yes I believe they will go to hell. I can not change the rules that God has made. I don't like to think of anyone going to hell but that is a decision that they made when they denied Jesus. I do spread the gospel but I am not going to cram it down someone's throat either.
It all sounds very good. You're a good Christian. It only seems to me you're used to this idea of hell so much it's become normal to you to think of people going to hell. 'It's their choice, I share with them but I'm not going to force them'. Sounds quite neutral, quite indifferent to me...

Where are the mistakes you have found?
I've mentioned them in my previous posts.

I find no problem finding in my life where God has truly been with me and has guided me. Those are facts for me because they happened to me.
Can you give any examples?
 
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gracealone

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Just Curious, as a "former Christian" who was it that you put your faith in? Who did you pray to? Who did you have a day to day personal relationship with through His indwelling Spirit?
Are you saying that this person who you had this relationship with was not real after all?
I ask these questions because to say that one used to be a Christian but isn't any more is rather like a person saying that they used to be married to a certain person but suddenly made the discovery that this person, whom they had spent many years on a day to day relational basis wasn't real after all... but just an illusion or delusion. It's hard for me to believe you lived a 15 year long delusion.
You may have had a 15 year religous experience though.
Please remember that as a Christian one must "look always to Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith," and not human beings or one will be greatly dismayed.
Also if Christians always perfectly displayed the nature that Christ intended for them to, there would have been no need for a very large portion of the new Testament which is loaded with various admonishments to walk the walk, talk the talk, etc.
Jesus is concerned with your answer to only one question..."Whom do you say that I AM?"
The ball is always in our court on that matter.
Respectfully.
 
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ebia

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Well, grade 12 and 7 maths textbooks are separate and are studied one 4 years after another (grades 8,9,10,11 in between). One does not learn the maths material of grade 12, then grade 1, then grade 7, for example. So, please explain where exactly, in your opinion, those gradual levels of increased truthfulness of teaching about God can be found in the Bible.
The analogy isn't a perfect one, (theology is a very different subject to mathematics) but I'm trying to point to the progressive revelation of God from Genesis, through the rest of the Torah, and eventually to it's culmination in the Gospels and Epistles.

Then please give me your correct interpretation so I can understand what you mean.
Part of the point is that many parts of the bible, John's gospel especially, are highly nuanced without a single clear interpretation. It's meant to be multi-layed so that, in sense, the first time you work through it it's a grade 1 textbook and the 12th time it's a grade 12 book.
John is far and away the least straight-forward of biblical writers. One could probably write an entire book on jthe various meanings wrapped up in just the few verses of his gospel. Fortunately Christianity isn't about having all the answers.
 
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MrDave

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Dear Friend:

Continuing replying to your concerns that you stated in your reply to me and others. You must be getting worn out answering the same questions the bunch of us are asking you. I have to admire your efforts.

Yesterday I gave four examples of science from the Bible. I think your incorrect to think that the Bible is scientifically incorrect just because if doesn’t agree with “modern science” of today. The Bible teaches lots of things that seemingly disagree with modern science, but does it really?

The Bible and evolution are totally contradictory to each other, but that does not disprove the Bible or prove the Bible is inaccurate. Let’s consider the two theories of origins: Creation and Evolution. Neither can be proved to be true or false. There is scientific evidence to support both. There are a great number of sites supporting both sides. From what I see, all the name calling is coming from the evolution side rather then pointing at PROOF of evolution. They just say it’s so and if you don’t accept it you’re an intellectual moron. Name calling isn’t proof. Not that long ago the case for both was brought before the supreme court and neither side could PROVE that it’s side of was the correct one.

Maybe you have, I don’t know, but I suggest you research both the creationist arguments for a recent creation and research the evolutionist arguments for a long ago beginning and compare the evidence, not just believe one side or the other blindly. I have been following myself for many years and evolution has not convinced me to change my thinking. By the way, science was my college minor.

I ask again, as others have, give a specific example of scientific error in the Bible, and I’ll abandon Christianity too.

As I teach, were evolutionist there? NO. Did they observe what happened? NO. Can evolution be tested? NO. I think evolution fails what defines science. Was God there? Yes. Did God observe? Yes. Did God tell us what happened? Yes? For me, it easier to believe an eye witness. See the book of Job for descriptions of animals that even Christians denied existed, yet God spoke of them. See Job 41 for “fire breathing animals”, if the Bible is scientifically flawed it should be easy to prove it.

Ok, now to address the “exaggerated numbers” of the Old Testament. You may be right that these numbers may be inflated or incorrect. BUT…I believe, as I think most Christians believe, God inspired the ORIGINAL writers to record everything 100% correctly. But there are no original copies in existence. Nowhere does the Bible teach that all copies would be copied 100% correctly. It is possible that some of these numbers are incorrect. I also wonder about these number, but it doesn’t cause me to doubt the tenets of Christianity or God. It the numbers in an event are incorrect I don’t know, I wasn’t there, but if the event never happened at all now I would have doubts. So got any examples that what the Bible said happened in history didn’t happen? There was a time critics of the Bible scoffed because the Bible mentioned “Hittites” and archeology had proven the “Hittites” never existed so the Bible was WRONG. Oops, then the “Hittites” were discovered. A favorite of mine, since I wrote one paper on this in nineth grade and used if repeatedly through high school, college and grad school.

A study of how we got the Bible today is a very interesting study and too long to detail, plenty of internet sites you could check out.

Here a snap shot: The ORIGINALS are called autograph’s and not exist. Copies of the originals and copies of copies are called manuscripts. There are about 5000 Old Testament manuscript copies. Then there are translations form manuscripts into languages other then manuscripts. There are like 23,000 for the New Testament, which makes sense since so much newer. Here’s the problem. Xerox didn’t exist yet nor did printing presses. All copies were made by hand. Here’s the second problem. Hebrew did not have vowels or numbers in the sense we do. So Jehovah or Yahweh is derived from only the consonances, and they are not even sure of what the consonances are. YHWH or JHVH? No one knows, then translators had to translate into English and other languages. I believe the Hebrews indicated numbers with very small marks, that were hard to distinquish and could be subject to mistakes when being copied. But, none of these number changes a single DOCTRINE or major theme of scriptures. If you want to throw away the Bible because of this, so be it.

Differences in the four gospels? Yes, it seems there are differences or could it be that God inspired the writers to record the same event differently, some with more detail then others. But, none of the gospels contradict another. One does not say Jesus went right and another say Jesus went left. Sometimes putting together al the gospels gives a more complete picture then any single gospel. I believe God inspired the writers to write exactly what He wanted for His reasons. But errors? Again none of the differences change a single Doctrine or major theme of scriptures. Some might say errors but I would not. I think your majoring on the minors at best. Wouldn’t it have been wonderful if God only did it my way.

God of O.T. different from God of N.T. Now this is a tough area. Since God never changes. But, certainly God in O.T. seemed to be far harsher then the God of N. T. I have an opinion about this, but it is mine so I can not speak for God in this area except to say:
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways {my ways}, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Well, time to post(OK time to go home from work is the truth)

DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY
 
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Sketcher

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1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?
This is probably the worst part about Christians today, at least in the West. The plain and simple truth is that we don't care enough. It's an indictment on us, to be sure. I wouldn't say it's an indictment on Christ.

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?
Scripture is very consistent IMO.

3) Why do the Christians exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?
First of all, this would make ignorance a means to salvation. That's not the Gospel. If it were, Jesus wouldn't have told the disciples to go out into the world and make more disciples. Second, humanity is not innocent. Humanity is delinquent, it is criminal. It is God who is just and right. Salvation is an act of mercy, which by definition is undeserved. I don't deserve salvation any more or less than someone who was born in India 500 years ago. Christianity is God's amnesty plan for corrupt and vile people. He would be right to condemn every one of us, but His saving some and not others doesn't make Him bad. Rather, it is good that He made a way for some people to escape Hell when everyone deserves it. And at His own expense no less!
 
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RN4CHRIST

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While I may not be able to answer your question, I can tell you that when I put my eyes on Christ, and keep them there, I can overlook the failings of other Christians. He reminds me daily that I am not perfect, but He also motivates me to live more like Him daily. Do I always succeed? No, I often stumble and fall. Do I share the Gospel like I should? No, I miss opportunities daily to share Christ with others. But still, I strive on. Looking forward to the day I am perfected in Christ. When I look at myself, I can see that I must be willing to correct the errors in me before I can correct the errors in my brothers and sisters in Christ. This is what keeps it all in perspective to me. Do I believe in the Inerrentcy of the Bible? Yes, because the More I read, the more the Holy Spirit convicts me of how correct it is. Perhaps I have not been helpful, but I know that when Christ came into my soul, I found a life that is so much fuller and joyful than any I could have imagined. Even through the worst pain and darkest night, Christ has never let me down. That is what I focus on. I pray that you will have that assurance in your life too,
 
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AformerChristian

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Dear Friend:

Thank you for your kind reply. I am not a pastor or minister, but actually computer programmer with not much to do this week. So I started browsing Christian forums. Someone on a different forum mentioned you posting and challenged Christians to respond.

So far I have found your postings to be quite challenging, but sincere. You said it in one of latest posts, “And I need help--I feel quite messed up and confused now.” I have to confess that even thou I have no trouble believing, there are times I have to say as that believer said to Christ, “Lord, I believe help thou my unbelief.” Mark 9:24.

You continually make statements about Christians, that sadly, I find quite true also. “Christians (that I've known) in some ways are so much hypocritical and selfish it makesme really sick, sorry.” I have felt and experienced myself that the biggest detriment to Christianity is the Christians themselves. I believe Ganhdi was considering the claims of Christ, but due to the lives of the Christians he observed, he was discouraged away. So your not the first to experience this. It is a sad commentary on Christians, but that will not excuse you before God.

I have picked some of your comments you made after my posting and would like to comment on them. I do like your subjective objective comments, keeps me on my toes.

The Bible was never intended to be a science book, but is surprisingly accurate concerning science, even if Christians misunderstood it.

“Contradictions with the modern knowledge about the solar system. The earth is a sphere, not flat rock standing on pillars with a glass-like dome around the earth with the sun, moon and stars revolving about it.” I am unaware of the Bible saying the Earth was flat, or stood on pillars, or a glass-like dome around it, or that the sun, moon and stars revolved around it. True the Roman Catholics in dark ages believed some of this, but it did not come from the Bible.
In fact, the Bible is the first place, thousands of years before science knew this or could observe this that:
1. The Earth hung in space – Job 26:7. He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing. Now how could Job know that, unless God revealed that to him?
2. The Earth is a sphere - Isaiah 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the {circle} of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Again how could the writer of this know this, unless God revealed this to him.

The Bible spoke of the cycling of water long before science understood the process: Ecclesisates 1:7 All the {rivers} run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full; unto the place from whence the {rivers} come, thither they return again.
How could the writer know this, unless it was revealed to him?

Could the Bible be referring to the streams in the oceans, like the Gulf Stream, thousands of years before it was discovered? Psalms 8:8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, [and whatsoever] passeth through the paths of the {seas}. It is rumored that the man who discovered the sea currents knew of this verse and researched it to discover what we now know.

There are more examples that show that the Bible was actually thousands of years ahead of science. I challenge you to provide an example of a real error in the Bible versus modern science.


I’m gonna post this and continue tomorrow.
Dear MrDave,

Sorry, no much time to post now...

Please check out these links, if you wish:

1. http://www.greenwych.ca/bible-a.htm

2. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

I am well familiar with the verses you quoted. I used them myself in the past to convince poor people ignorant of the rest of the Bible's contents.

About Christians, I look at them because I want to know if this faith is true--what its followers do.
 
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Criada

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About Christians, I look at them because I want to know if this faith is true--what its followers do.

Judging Christianity by the actions of imperfect people may not be the best idea!
Look at Christ and His teachings!
Many Christians do not obey His teachings - but surely that does not mean that He was wrong - simply that we are fallible!
 
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Mailman Dan

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Please check out these links, if you wish:

Did, and there were many subjective errors, many having to do with the way they fail to view Christ for who He was. One "fatal" mistake was saying that Christ could not take the throne and rule a kingdom, because it can't happen now. To anyone with any understanding of scripture, thats just an out right stupid responce, knowing He was speaking of the future.


Scientific Facts in the Bible


http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml



1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."


2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.


3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).


4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).


5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).


6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.


7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."


8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).


9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).


10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.


11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."


12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.


13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."


14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.


15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence."

Dan~~~>suggest you keep looking for those "mistakes"
 
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MedicMan

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Please tell me, if you can and want to:

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

3) Why do the Christians exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

Interesting questions there :)

In response to 1) I'd say that's not necessarily true. After all, you said yourself that you became a Christian after hearing an American preacher. Christians are involved in quite a bit of outreach (incidentally, I don't remeber seeing people teaching about YHWH, Allah, Brahman, or any other religions, but that's beside the point).

To 2), the Bible is only inconsistent if you take its words out of context. Perhaps if you gave me/us some specific examples of these 'inconsistencies' we could explore how they are not in fact inconsistent at all :)

Finally, for 3), unfortunately that is what is taught; that no matter what deeds you have performed in your life, if you fail to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God and the Saviour of Mankind, you will be sent to Hell for the original sin. As far as I was aware, Jews and Muslims did know about Jesus (I had been taught during my Religious Studies GCSE that Muslims regarded Jesus as a prophet). Since they know He exists, it is then up to them to investigate what He said, believed, etc. That is partly what missionary societies are for - to bring Jesus' light to people who would not otherwise hear it! :)

~MedicMan~
 
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Godslilgurlalways

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1) Most Christians believe that because, in the bible it tells us there, in order to get into heaven we must accept him as our lord and savior. It also goes into telling us where Christians go, and Non-christians and all.

2) “I have not found anything in the bible that is factually wrong. God's word is perfect just like God and it is man who makes mistakes.”

3) Didn’t really understand that question.
 
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Godslilgurlalways

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"About Christians, I look at them because I want to know if this faith is true--what its followers do."

Also remember it's important to look mostly towards God.Because remember we make mistakes just like everyone else. He's perfect and can never fail:)
 
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AformerChristian

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Just Curious, as a "former Christian" who was it that you put your faith in? Who did you pray to? Who did you have a day to day personal relationship with through His indwelling Spirit?
Are you saying that this person who you had this relationship with was not real after all?
I ask these questions because to say that one used to be a Christian but isn't any more is rather like a person saying that they used to be married to a certain person but suddenly made the discovery that this person, whom they had spent many years on a day to day relational basis wasn't real after all... but just an illusion or delusion. It's hard for me to believe you lived a 15 year long delusion.
You may have had a 15 year religous experience though.
Please remember that as a Christian one must "look always to Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith," and not human beings or one will be greatly dismayed.
Also if Christians always perfectly displayed the nature that Christ intended for them to, there would have been no need for a very large portion of the new Testament which is loaded with various admonishments to walk the walk, talk the talk, etc.
Jesus is concerned with your answer to only one question..."Whom do you say that I AM?"
The ball is always in our court on that matter.
Respectfully.
Hello gracealone! :wave: I don't beleive in the Bible and do not practice Christianity anymore. I haven't stopped being interested in the history of religion, though. Maybe a Jesus did exist who started this religion, or maybe he's just a myth. I have just started investigating this matter in truth.
 
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AformerChristian

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The analogy isn't a perfect one, (theology is a very different subject to mathematics) but I'm trying to point to the progressive revelation of God from Genesis, through the rest of the Torah, and eventually to it's culmination in the Gospels and Epistles.


Part of the point is that many parts of the bible, John's gospel especially, are highly nuanced without a single clear interpretation. It's meant to be multi-layed so that, in sense, the first time you work through it it's a grade 1 textbook and the 12th time it's a grade 12 book.
John is far and away the least straight-forward of biblical writers. One could probably write an entire book on jthe various meanings wrapped up in just the few verses of his gospel. Fortunately Christianity isn't about having all the answers.
your problem, ebia, IMO, is that you are too much into abstract thinking. when i ask you about something more concrete, you always give a vague answer that creates more qusetions.
 
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AformerChristian

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I'm still not seeing "errors" as you say. Where in scripture does it say the earth is flat?


Dan~~~>can't seem to find it
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers.
A circle is a flat, two dimensional object. There is a Hebrew word for ball, which would have been better to use if the author new the earth was round as a sphere.

Daniel 4:10-11 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.
Nebuchadnezzar has a dream, where a tree grows at the "center" of the earth. A spherical earth has no center on the surface. He also states that the tree grew so tall, that it reached into heaven and was able to be seen to the "ends of the earth".

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
The author of Job imagines God can take the edges of the earth and shake out the wicked, like shaking dust out of a rug.

Job 11:9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
A spherical earth has no ends to measure its length.

Deuteronomy 14:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth.
From one end of the earth, to the other end? This verse speaks for itself.
[SIZE=+2]Verses Describing A Stationary Earth[/SIZE]

Psalms 93:1 ...the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
1 Samuel 2:8 ...for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he has set the world upon them.
Isaiah 24:18 ...for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
1 Chronicles 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
 
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AformerChristian

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Dear Friend:

Continuing replying to your concerns that you stated in your reply to me and others. You must be getting worn out answering the same questions the bunch of us are asking you. I have to admire your efforts.

Yesterday I gave four examples of science from the Bible. I think your incorrect to think that the Bible is scientifically incorrect just because if doesn’t agree with “modern science” of today. The Bible teaches lots of things that seemingly disagree with modern science, but does it really?

The Bible and evolution are totally contradictory to each other, but that does not disprove the Bible or prove the Bible is inaccurate. Let’s consider the two theories of origins: Creation and Evolution. Neither can be proved to be true or false. There is scientific evidence to support both. There are a great number of sites supporting both sides. From what I see, all the name calling is coming from the evolution side rather then pointing at PROOF of evolution. They just say it’s so and if you don’t accept it you’re an intellectual moron. Name calling isn’t proof. Not that long ago the case for both was brought before the supreme court and neither side could PROVE that it’s side of was the correct one.

Maybe you have, I don’t know, but I suggest you research both the creationist arguments for a recent creation and research the evolutionist arguments for a long ago beginning and compare the evidence, not just believe one side or the other blindly. I have been following myself for many years and evolution has not convinced me to change my thinking. By the way, science was my college minor.

I ask again, as others have, give a specific example of scientific error in the Bible, and I’ll abandon Christianity too.

As I teach, were evolutionist there? NO. Did they observe what happened? NO. Can evolution be tested? NO. I think evolution fails what defines science. Was God there? Yes. Did God observe? Yes. Did God tell us what happened? Yes? For me, it easier to believe an eye witness. See the book of Job for descriptions of animals that even Christians denied existed, yet God spoke of them. See Job 41 for “fire breathing animals”, if the Bible is scientifically flawed it should be easy to prove it.

Ok, now to address the “exaggerated numbers” of the Old Testament. You may be right that these numbers may be inflated or incorrect. BUT…I believe, as I think most Christians believe, God inspired the ORIGINAL writers to record everything 100% correctly. But there are no original copies in existence. Nowhere does the Bible teach that all copies would be copied 100% correctly. It is possible that some of these numbers are incorrect. I also wonder about these number, but it doesn’t cause me to doubt the tenets of Christianity or God. It the numbers in an event are incorrect I don’t know, I wasn’t there, but if the event never happened at all now I would have doubts. So got any examples that what the Bible said happened in history didn’t happen? There was a time critics of the Bible scoffed because the Bible mentioned “Hittites” and archeology had proven the “Hittites” never existed so the Bible was WRONG. Oops, then the “Hittites” were discovered. A favorite of mine, since I wrote one paper on this in nineth grade and used if repeatedly through high school, college and grad school.

A study of how we got the Bible today is a very interesting study and too long to detail, plenty of internet sites you could check out.

Here a snap shot: The ORIGINALS are called autograph’s and not exist. Copies of the originals and copies of copies are called manuscripts. There are about 5000 Old Testament manuscript copies. Then there are translations form manuscripts into languages other then manuscripts. There are like 23,000 for the New Testament, which makes sense since so much newer. Here’s the problem. Xerox didn’t exist yet nor did printing presses. All copies were made by hand. Here’s the second problem. Hebrew did not have vowels or numbers in the sense we do. So Jehovah or Yahweh is derived from only the consonances, and they are not even sure of what the consonances are. YHWH or JHVH? No one knows, then translators had to translate into English and other languages. I believe the Hebrews indicated numbers with very small marks, that were hard to distinquish and could be subject to mistakes when being copied. But, none of these number changes a single DOCTRINE or major theme of scriptures. If you want to throw away the Bible because of this, so be it.

Differences in the four gospels? Yes, it seems there are differences or could it be that God inspired the writers to record the same event differently, some with more detail then others. But, none of the gospels contradict another. One does not say Jesus went right and another say Jesus went left. Sometimes putting together al the gospels gives a more complete picture then any single gospel. I believe God inspired the writers to write exactly what He wanted for His reasons. But errors? Again none of the differences change a single Doctrine or major theme of scriptures. Some might say errors but I would not. I think your majoring on the minors at best. Wouldn’t it have been wonderful if God only did it my way.

God of O.T. different from God of N.T. Now this is a tough area. Since God never changes. But, certainly God in O.T. seemed to be far harsher then the God of N. T. I have an opinion about this, but it is mine so I can not speak for God in this area except to say:
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways {my ways}, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Well, time to post(OK time to go home from work is the truth)

DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY
Dear MrDave, I do not necessarily accept the idea of evolution. I'm not an expert in this area, so there's not much I can say. I do not regect the idea of creation. I only look with great scepticism at the Bible story of creation because it talks about firmament that the sun, moon and stars are attached to and other strange things/inconsistencies between 2 versions in chapter 1 and 2.

I do not say that the Bible doesn't have correct history. It surely does. What I was saying, it's not always correct in recording history. Almighty God doesn't make mistakes, does he? An example of historical errors in the Book of Daniel is verses Daniel 1:1-2. So, that makes me to think, the Bible is a good book on some history of some peoplse. It's just not a book from the God of the Universe.
 
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ebia

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your problem, ebia, IMO, is that you are too much into abstract thinking. when i ask you about something more concrete, you always give a vague answer that creates more qusetions.
I'll take that as a compliment - it would put me in very good company.


Someone once said that to every question there is an answer that is simple, ... straightforward, .... and wrong.
 
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AformerChristian

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This is probably the worst part about Christians today, at least in the West. The plain and simple truth is that we don't care enough. It's an indictment on us, to be sure. I wouldn't say it's an indictment on Christ.
It's not about indictments. It's about my lost faith. I looked at Christians in general because I wanted to know if they truly believe and if it is the truth that they believe in. Seems like 99.99% do not really believe in what they say they believe. Why? Maybe because it's impossible to? Or maybe because it's not actually the truth they believe in?


Scripture is very consistent IMO.
It is not IMO.

First of all, this would make ignorance a means to salvation. That's not the Gospel. If it were, Jesus wouldn't have told the disciples to go out into the world and make more disciples. Second, humanity is not innocent. Humanity is delinquent, it is criminal. It is God who is just and right. Salvation is an act of mercy, which by definition is undeserved. I don't deserve salvation any more or less than someone who was born in India 500 years ago. Christianity is God's amnesty plan for corrupt and vile people. He would be right to condemn every one of us, but His saving some and not others doesn't make Him bad. Rather, it is good that He made a way for some people to escape Hell when everyone deserves it. And at His own expense no less!
I do not agree to this idea of the Creator. It's a cruel god. This idea implies that god created humans only to then condemn them to his own amusement... Or maybe it's true, eh?
 
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