Questions for Trinitarians

2ducklow

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Most Trinitarians believe that Christ preexisted in a conscious state prior to his birth on earth? What happened to his memories and experiences from that time?

If Christ is 100% God and 100% man, what things did His deity do and what things His humanity? How do you know?

Can God change His character?
i got some questions in the same vein I could add to yours, like.
"Since God is a spirit, according to the bible, and Jesus is a man , according to the bible, then that would mean that Jesus is the omnipresent spirit , a human body , soul and human spirit at the same time. So how can someone be ominipresent spirit and a physical body and soul at the same time?"

or

"Since according to trinity Jesus is God god the father is god, god the holy spirit is God, and they are not each other, how come that doesn't add up to 3 gods? why do you have to call each individual the nonbiblical term person of God before you can add them uP?

and there are lots more , but this is all an exercise in futility. Cause the universal solvent to these problems of trinity is "I don't paint God in a box." or "God is beyond our understanding" or "It makes sense to me." etc. etc. etc. etc.
 
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music4two

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i got some questions in the same vein I could add to yours, like.
"Since God is a spirit, according to the bible, and Jesus is a man , according to the bible, then that would mean that Jesus is the omnipresent spirit , a human body , soul and human spirit at the same time. So how can someone be ominipresent spirit and a physical body and soul at the same time?"

or

"Since according to trinity Jesus is God god the father is god, god the holy spirit is God, and they are not each other, how come that doesn't add up to 3 gods? why do you have to call each individual the nonbiblical term person of God before you can add them uP?

and there are lots more , but this is all an exercise in futility. Cause the universal solvent to these problems of trinity is "I don't paint God in a box." or "God is beyond our understanding" or "It makes sense to me." etc. etc. etc. etc.

No big surprise that there are no answers for our questions.
 
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k2svpete

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That's becasue they can't answer them. TBH I am getting quite vexed with being deleted in the GT section when people are raising discussions on trinity and I offer an alternate viewpoint. If they want to just re-affirm their own beliefs why ask the question at all?
 
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Majormajor

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That's becasue they can't answer them. TBH I am getting quite vexed with being deleted in the GT section when people are raising discussions on trinity and I offer an alternate viewpoint. If they want to just re-affirm their own beliefs why ask the question at all?
can unorthodox go in their teritorry?
 
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2ducklow

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But I'll create some waves while I'm there!
Just out of curiosity, do you have some comment that sticks out to you as the most nonsensical, illogical thing that you have heard in defense of trinity? For me it would have to be the comments that
"verbs have no subjects, verbs have causes and the cause of a verb could be in another sentence. Sentences have subjects not verbs, Is is an action verb."

I might have heard something more ludicrous in defence of trinity but that sticks out in my mind as the most innnane defence of trintiy I have ever heard. Or maybe it's just that I've heard 3 are one so many times I'm immune to the innanity of it.
 
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k2svpete

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I'd have to say the farce that attempts to assign pluracy to the adjective 'one' rather than the noun 'God'. Or coupled to that, saying that God is sometimes plural and other time single from the same root word.

Any number of attempts to argue the trinitarian viewpoint from the OT. I always ask them to show me where in the OT we get a trinity as that OT is what Jesus and the disciples taught out of. Further, that if it is such an important doctrine, where is the explicit statement of that anywhere. Contrast this with the numerous times where God says that He is one and beside Him there are no others in the OT and the support Jesus has for that in Mark.
 
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music4two

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I'd have to say the farce that attempts to assign pluracy to the adjective 'one' rather than the noun 'God'. Or coupled to that, saying that God is sometimes plural and other time single from the same root word..

There is some confussion in the use of the word "one" in the OT

Echad means Unity. Unity of what?

The Hebrew language and culture is very much different then ours. This is particularly true when it comes to describing objects/nouns/pronouns. Hebrews describe objects. The Western or Greek civilizations describe objects in relation to it’s appearance. The Eastern cultures describe them in relation to their function.
To a Greek thinker a pencil would be described as yellow and 12 inches long. A Hebrew thinker would say I write with it. For this reason the same word they would use for pencil could mean chalk, marker, anything that they could write with.
In addition a Hebrew describes objects in relationship to himself while the Western cultures describe objects in relation to the object itself.
In the case of the pencil the Western uses the term “is”, while the Hebrew says “I write”. There is no word for “is” in the Hebrew language of the OT.
Another example would be
Western = God is love
Eastern = God loves me

The Hebrew word “echad” literally means “unity”. Now Trinitarians will try to tell you that this proves the triune God. This only shows a lack of understanding of the Hebrew language and culture.
As stated above, English describes a noun as a person place or thing. Hebrew describes a noun as the function of a person place or thing and relates that object to the Hebrew himself. When scripture uses the word Echad/unity, It is not describing God as a unified group of persons, but as a being that is unified in his functions and purposes toward His people. It is describing how God functions in relationship to the Hebrews.
This functional and relational description is clear in the many names for God in the OT.
God our redeemer
God our strong tower
God our savior
God our healer
And many many more.
All of these describe how God functions and how He relates that function to His people. There is no plurality of persons intended.
 
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k2svpete

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I'm not sure where you got the echad = unity becasue I have it as meaning the number one. The same word is used in Ezek 33:24 and Is 51:2 when describing Abraham. The word is translated as 'one', 'only', 'alone', 'entire, undivided', 'one single'.

I believe that any confusion about this has been brought about as a direct result of the various attempts of trinitarians to twist, manipulate and even re-write scripture to suit their doctrine.
 
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lenpettis74

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I guess that I'll throw myself to the wolves here, even though I know I am unlikely to change hearts and minds. I believe that there is sound biblical basis for the Trinity, I believe that all of the apostles had a firm understanding of God's triune nature, also. I will give my examples all quoted from the King James version of the Bible (italics for emphasis):

Genesis 1:2 'And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.' This passage demonstrates oneness of God with the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 61:1 'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.' Also demonstrates God's oneness with the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17 'And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' This passage clearly demonstrates the Holy Spirit speaking with the voice of God the father in approval of Jesus his Son demonstrating the community and diversity of the Trinity.

Matthew 28:19-20 'Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.' Jesus clearly speaking of Himself in plurality.

1 Corinthians 8:6 'But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.' Paul clearly placing equality in God the Father and Christ the Son and giving plurality to their oneness.

Acts 5:3-4 'But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. The Holy Spirit here clearly is the same as God.

John 17:21-22 'That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one' Jesus' words, not mine.

As to the question of how Christ can be truly God and truly man:

John 1:3 'All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.' Christ clearly as the Agent of Creation; thus God.

John 4:42 'And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.' Kind of speaks for itself I think

Acts 10:42 'And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.' Jesus will be the final judge of mankind, thus making him God.

John 8:58 'Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.' Jesus himself claiming to be God. Either he was who he said he was, or he was a madman. No middle ground here for me.

John 17:5 'And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.'

John 10:30 'I and my Father are one.' Self explanatory

John 5:18 'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.' The Jews understood the implication of such a claim, why do we question it 2000 years later?

Philippians 2:6-8: 'Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.' This is the clear demonstration of Jesus being both wholly God and wholly man.

John 14:9 'Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?' Again, either Jesus was who he said he was, or he was mad.

Mark 9:37 'Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.'

When I think of the triune nature of God, being 3 in personhood, 1 in essence, I have some admittedly flawed comparisons, but comparisons worthy of thought. I first think of a fertilized embryo, a father and mother copulating, and at that moment of fertilization, that embryo is 3 persons at the same time (father, mother, and child) while being a single thing. Another admittedly flawed comparison would be an egg, it is one single thing, with three distinct parts, shell, white, and yolk. Also water, which while 1 in essence, can be solid, liquid, and gas.

I am probably approaching my character limit so I'll end here. Let the debate begin:thumbsup:
 
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Gareth

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Okay then Len, how about this: 1Cor. 15:20-28. Paul talks here about future events involving Jesus and God. How does a person like Jesus here in his "first nature" subject himself to God when in this first nature state his is on equal terms with God and presumably the Holy Spirit, in a Triune context. That Jesus is given something, the task of bringing humankind to perfection over 1,000 years and ending death, then hands it back to God does not make sense. If Jesus is equal to God then there are no secrets or positions that one has over the other. Yet Jehovah has given the resurrected Jesus positions and tasks that he had not had before. So which scripture could you use to refute this scripture (1Cor. 15:20-28), to be able to prove that the trinity is true?
 
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lenpettis74

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Okay then Len, how about this: 1Cor. 15:20-28. Paul talks here about future events involving Jesus and God. How does a person like Jesus here in his "first nature" subject himself to God when in this first nature state his is on equal terms with God and presumably the Holy Spirit, in a Triune context. That Jesus is given something, the task of bringing humankind to perfection over 1,000 years and ending death, then hands it back to God does not make sense. If Jesus is equal to God then there are no secrets or positions that one has over the other. Yet Jehovah has given the resurrected Jesus positions and tasks that he had not had before. So which scripture could you use to refute this scripture (1Cor. 15:20-28), to be able to prove that the trinity is true?

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (King James Version)


20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


I guess I may be a bit dense here, but I don't really understand your question in light of the text. This may or may not be a response to your question, but the Son is in a willful submission to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is in willful submission to both, just as a wife willfully submits to her husband and the children willfully submit to both (at least in my house). That does not mean that a wife is of less importance than her husband, because I think that submission in a Christian marital context is a beautiful thing, but it is a recognition of their respective roles to one another and to their families, just as the Trinity has their respective roles. This submission does not make either part of the Trinity more or less God than the other, they are all the same God, hence the Trinity.



Here is how I see the purposes or roles; if you will, of each "head" of the Trinity, using my experience in construction as an analogy:


God: Architect/General Contractor (Ps 33:6, Eph 1:9-12, Jn 3:16 Jms 1:13-17)

Son: Builder/General Labor (Heb 7:25, 1 Pet 2:21, Col 1:16-20, 2 Cor 5:10)

Holy Spirit: Superintendent (Jn 6:63, Acts 1:8, Phl 1:6, Rom 8:13)


Each part of them is equally important to accomplish the completion of a 'project' and their respective roles cannot be fulfilled without the other doing their job.



Here is one of the best proof texts for the Trinity where God is spoken of in both singularity of essence and plurality of personhood(italics for emphasis):

Psalm 19:1-4 (King James Version)


1The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
 
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k2svpete

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Len, Len, Len...... so much to address there.

Firstly, discount Matt 28:19-20 as it is an addition to the scriptures made many years ago. The RSV or a decent literal translation will clear that one up for you.

Read each quote you put there in context and with a mind to what God's character and plan is, not with the mindset of looking for something to support your ideas. Take your doctrine from the scriptures, not vice-versa.
 
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lenpettis74

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Len, Len, Len...... so much to address there.

Firstly, discount Matt 28:19-20 as it is an addition to the scriptures made many years ago. The RSV or a decent literal translation will clear that one up for you.

Read each quote you put there in context and with a mind to what God's character and plan is, not with the mindset of looking for something to support your ideas. Take your doctrine from the scriptures, not vice-versa.

I'm very familiar with the context of the scripture I quoted, are you. Maybe you should quote my post and identify where I have failed in light of the context of the scripture, yes, that means all of them. Otherwise I can only assume that you are not as familiar as you claim to be.

I realize that I am not changing anyone's mind, and my mind is quite unlikely to be changed either. I just decided to give my point of view, I'm not asking you to agree with it or change your mind about your point of view.
 
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