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Once again, Revelation is symbolic. Here are some footnotes explaining those verses:
http://online.recoveryversion.org/bibleverses.asp?fvid=7686&lvid=7687&ol=on
81 The bowls are the saints' prayers brought to God by the angelic elders (cf. 8:3-4), whereas the incense is Christ added to the saints' prayers. That in their worship to God the twenty-four angelic elders are holding the golden bowls full of incense shows that they, as priests, are ministering to God by bringing the saints' prayers to Him.
in my understanding, "rationalize" is the limitation of the spiritual reality in Christ using human ways of thinking (the rational, physical mind) -- it is the impulse to circumscribe the actions and reality of God using human standards (using the brain or fleshly 'nous' instead of the cleansed 'nous' to use Paul's terminology)which still does not answer the question of whether it is proper to direct prayers to saints or not. But we know that the Bible doesn't show us any examples of it...and even Tradition can't justify it since there is no kernel of a Bible truth to embellish (i.e. Tradition). We just have to believe revelation and not rationalize until we find some linguistic loophole.
angelic elders are holding the golden bowls full of incense shows that they, as priests, are ministering to God by bringing the saints' prayers to Him.
This commentary supports prayer to saints and angels.
You never answered the questions and made statements that went against what the Scriptures speak to on this.
Love,
Christina
No, "what it supports" has nothing to do with us praying to them. And it doesn't even show these beings to be "in possession of" the prayers. According to the wording (Rev. 8.3-4) "(an angel) was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne."
. . . having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
How do they have them?
by literal do you mean actual ?allegorically, not literally. And even if they did "have" them, it doesn't mean in any way that we know how they came by them, does it?
As you know, Uphill Battle already explained this: ("....now, showing that the angels and elders are in possession of prayers, is STILL no indication that these prayers were sent to THEM first, to be passed on to God.
there is no mention that the prayers of the saints were to the Saints in heaven, to be forwarded at that time....)
by literal do you mean actual ?
allegorically, not literally. And even if they did "have" them, it doesn't mean in any way that we know how they came by them, does it?
Then you do not know that it could be through prayer.
Look at Job . . .
33:23If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: 24Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. (KJV)
23 If there be with him an angel, An interpreter, one among a thousand, To show unto man what is right for him;
24 Then God is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom.(ASV)
see the definition of symbolon previously -- also what is not literal can still be actualNo, I mean "in the physical way painted by the words used." You know, it always amazes me--and somewhat disappoints me-- that Orthodox Christians commonly turn everything into symbolism...until doing the opposite suits their purposes. THEN what I read is a defense of taking the Bible more literally than the average fundamentalist does. Revelation is clearly a vision. It's author tells us that, if we had any doubts anyway. Every theologian agrees.
Take this example. In one of the verses recently used here, the prayers of the faithful are said to be upon the altar. How is that done, literally speaking? How are we to suppose that a thought, something that is not physical or even quantifiable can be placed or located upon any altar?
also what is not literal can still be actual
proseuche can mean act and location where the act takes place; a literal and spiritual meaning
do you mean the meaning of symbol at the time of Revelations or presently ?I believe I've already agreed with you there, although it doesn't change anything in this debate.
But you can't pile up thoughts upon a table-top. If you want to consider that altar to be only symbolic or representational, then the rest of items in the passage are also.
do you mean the meaning of symbol at the time of Revelations or presently ?
so the book is actually a sign ? (like the rainbow of the OC)I mean the present usage because that's what we are saying is the nature of the book. We are not analyzing the use of the term in the Book of Revelation.
then what idea/ideas do the angels, elders and saints personify ?I think I prefer the word I first used--allegory.
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