Questions for the local church brothers and sisters

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Why was the local church considered to ba cult? What is the rest of the story? What is the reast of the story?

What is the full context of this quote?

"In the second to the fifth centuries, the church fathers found three high mysteries in the Bible: (1) the Triune God, the Divine Trinity, the highest mystery; (2) the person of Christ; and (3) the deification of man—that man could become God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead."

What is mingling? How does II Peter 1 relate?

When is Jim Moran materials going to be republished and responded to?

Let us have this as a discussion between fellow believers in Jesus. I have limited time online due to health and wife working at home.

What are the major controversies? Honestly, suppressing the writings of others(Jim Moran) and suing fellow Christians has me concerned.

The “Local Church” as Movement and Source of Controversy | Christian Research Institute
Are the teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church biblical? | GotQuestions.org
Are the teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church biblical?
Our Response to Controversy — Local Churches FAQ
Dr. J. Gordon Melton— An Open Letter Concerning the Local Church, Witness Lee and “The God-Men” Controversy – Contending for the Faith
Local Church : Lord's Recovery, Living Stream Ministry
http://www.open-letter.org/pdf/OpenLetter.pdf
The False Gospel of Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministries
Charisma Magazine
Local Church controversies - Wikipedia
 

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,313
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I think you are mixing up a few different things. But the first one was to an ancient Roman Christianity from the outside looked sort of like another mystery religion, except one that is maybe a little more weird and scarry. Especially when they were persecuted and hiding out in remote places like the Catacombs, being seditious (aka not burning incense to Cesar) and their were rumors that they were secretly consuming the body and blood of their founding leader.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Pliny to the Emperor Trajan
It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never before participated in trials of Christians, so I do not know what offenses are to be punished or investigated, or to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age, or no difference recognized between the very young and the more mature. Is pardon to be granted for repentance, or if a man has once been a Christian is it irrelevant whether he has ceased to be one? Is the name itself to be punished, even without offenses, or only the offenses perpetrated in connection with the name?

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have followed the following procedure: I interrogated them as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread because of these proceedings, as usually happens, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and also cursed Christ – none of which those who are really Christians can, it is said, be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ. They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to do some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food — but ordinary and innocent food.

Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition. I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it.

It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Trajan to Pliny
You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it — that is, by worshiping our gods — even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.

Pliny’s Letter to Trajan | Christian History Institute

The above letter is from around 111-113 CE. Are you aware of any letter between two Roman people saying what you are claiming about 200 years later.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"As Polycarp was being taken into the arena, a voice came to him from heaven: “Be strong, Polycarp and play the man!” No one saw who had spoken, but our brothers who were there heard the voice. When the crowd heard that Polycarp had been captured, there was an uproar. The Proconsul asked him whether he was Polycarp. On hearing that he was, he tried to persuade him to apostatize, saying, “Have respect for your old age, swear by the fortune of Caesar. Repent, and say, ‘Down with the Atheists!’” Polycarp looked grimly at the wicked heathen multitude in the stadium, and gesturing towards them, he said, “Down with the Atheists!” “Swear,” urged the Proconsul, “reproach Christ, and I will set you free.” “86 years have I have served him,” Polycarp declared, “and he has done me no wrong. How can I blaspheme my King and my Savior?”"
Polycarp’s Martyrdom | Christian History Institute
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Age of Martyrdom—2nd to 4th centuries

Pope St Fabian and Saint Sebastian, Giovanni di Paolo

The martyrdom of St. Alban, from a 13th-century manuscript, now in the Trinity College Library, Dublin. Note the executioner's eyes falling out of his head.
According to early Christian tradition
With some historical attestation within a hundred years of the event
Polycarp of Smyrna[16]
Justin Martyr[17]
Scillitan Martyrs[18]
Perpetua and Felicity[19]
Ptolemaeus and Lucius[20]
Pothinus, bishop of Lyon, with Blandina and several others, the "Martyrs of Lyon and Vienne"[21][22]
Pope Fabian[23]
Saint Sebastian[24]
Shmona and Gurya[25]
Saint Agnes[26]
Felix and Adauctus[27]
Marcellinus and Peter[28]
Forty Martyrs of Sebaste[29]
Euphemia[30]
Cyprian[31]

List of Christian martyrs - Wikipedia

The last three where around 320 AD. In my mind this does not square with your statement.

I am curious what primary sources with links you have for your statement Brother Pavel.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"44. No one considers how great a loss it is to the Empire, what an injury to the state, when people as virtuous as we are put to death in such numbers, and so many of the truly good suffer the ultimate penalty. Here we call your own acts to witness, you who are daily presiding at the trials of prisoners, and passing sentence upon crimes. In your long lists of those accused of many and various atrocities, has any assassin, any thief, anyone guilty of sacrilege, or seduction, or stealing bathers’ clothes, ever been named as a Christian too? Or when Christians are brought before you purely on the charge of being Christians, do you ever find them to be guilty of such crimes? It is always with your folk [i.e. pagans] that the prison is steaming, the mines are sighing, the wild beasts are fed: it is from you that the organizers of the gladiatorial circus always get their herds of criminals to feed up for the occasion. You will find no Christian there, unless they are there simply because they are Christians."
Tertullian’s Defense | Christian History Institute

Our fellow believers met in the caves to avoid the above treatments.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"12. Do not deceive yourselves by misinterpreting the words of the Lord that, “Wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there among them.” [Matt. 18:20] Corrupters of the Gospel quote these words, ignoring the ones that come just before (as they themselves are separated from the Church, so they divorce one section of the text from the next). For the Lord, urging his disciples to unanimity and peace, said, “I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about what you ask for, it shall be given to you by my Father in heaven.” This shows that God gives, not in accordance with to the number of those who ask, but in accordance with their unanimity. “If two of you shall agree on earth” – agreement comes first. This shows that our firm and faithful agreement is essential. But how can you agree with anyone if you do not agree with the Church itself, and with the universal brotherhood? How can two or three be assembled together in Christ’s name, when they are clearly separated from Christ and from his Gospel? For we have not withdrawn from them, but they from us. Their success in building many places of worship from which to spawn further heresies and schisms has emboldened them in forsaking the source of the truth. The Lord says to those also who are in his Church, that if they agree with each other in his instructions and are united in prayer – even of only two or three are present – they will receive what they ask from the majesty of God…. He does not divide people from the Church – after all, he himself set up and created the Church. Instead, to rebuke the faithless for their discord and commend peace to the faithful, he shows that he is with two or three who pray with one mind, rather than with a great many who disagree, and that more can be obtained by the harmonious prayer of a few, than by the discordant prayer of many. …"
Cyprian on Church Unity | Christian History Institute
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
13. Was God to keep silence allowing us who were made to worship him give that worship to false gods? A comparison with a king, showing that God must restore the grace of his image to us. As humans cannot achieve this, the Word himself must come to recreate, and to destroy death in the body.
Athanasius on Christ | Christian History Institute

The Christian Writers made contrast between true God we know as Jesus and the false pagan gods.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
6. …All who do not love God are strangers and antichrists. They might come to the churches, but they cannot be numbered among the children of God. That fountain of life does not belong to them. A bad person can have baptism and prophecy. King Saul had prophecy: even while he persecuted the holy David, he was filled with the Spirit of Prophecy, and began to prophesy. [1 Sam. 19]
Augustine’s Love Sermon | Christian History Institute
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
5. Augustine replied: O hateful mixture of ignorance and cunning! Why do you put arguments in the mouth of your opponent, which no one that knows you would use? We do not call you Pagans, or a schism of Pagans; but we say that you resemble them in worshipping many gods. But you are far worse than Pagans, for they worship things which exist, though they should not be worshipped: for idols have an existence, though for salvation they are nought. So, to worship a tree with prayers, instead of improving it by cultivation, is not to worship nothing, but to worship in a wrong way. When the apostle says that "the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God," 1 Corinthians 10:20 he means that these demons exist to whom the sacrifices are made, and with whom he wishes us not to be partakers. So, too, heaven and earth, the sea and air, the sun and moon, and the other heavenly bodies, are all objects which have a sensible existence. When the Pagans worship these as gods, or as parts of one great God (for some of them identify the universe with the Supreme Deity), they worship things which have an existence. In arguing with Pagans, we do not deny the existence of these things, but we say that they should not be worshipped; and we recommend the worship of the invisible Creator of all these things, in whom alone man can find the happiness which all allow that he desires. To those, again, who worship what is invisible and immaterial, but still is created, as the soul or mind of man, we say that happiness is not to be found in the creature even under this form, and that we must worship the true God, who is not only invisible, but unchangeable; for He alone is to be worshipped, in the enjoyment of whom the worshipper finds happiness, and without whom the soul must be wretched, whatever else it possesses. You, on the other hand, who worship things which have no existence at all except in your fictitious legends, would be nearer true piety and religion if you were Pagans, or if you were worshippers of what has an existence, though not a proper object of worship. In fact, you do not properly worship the sun, though he carries your prayers with him in his course round the heavens.
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XX (Augustine)

This series of quotes is to contrast Christian writers vs pagan gods.

I am guessing the this one and next three to five posts.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There is no need of adducing many illustrations, since the thing is evident. Wherefore the selection of certain gods from among many affords no proper reason why either he who wrote on this subject, or the worshippers of the gods, or the gods themselves, should be spurned. We ought rather to seek to know what gods these are, and for what purpose they may appear to have been selected.
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book VII (St. Augustine)
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"7. But why should I say that men seek from him subtleties of expression and splendour of diction, when I know that there are many who avoid and flee from his books on this subject, and will not hear his opinions read, overthrowing their prejudices; and when I hear others muttering angrily, and saying that the senate should decree the destruction of these writings by which the Christian religion is maintained, and the weight of antiquity overborne? But, indeed, if you are convinced that anything you say regarding your gods is beyond doubt, point out Cicero's error, refute, rebut his rash and impious words, and show that they are so. For when you would carry off writings, and suppress a book given forth to the public, you are not defending the gods, but dreading the evidence of the truth."
CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book III (Arnobius)

full document is worth the reading.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
3. With regard, indeed, to your bringing forward to us other bands of unknown gods, we cannot determine whether you do that seriously, and from a belief in its certainty; or, merely playing with empty fictions, abandon yourselves to an unbridled imagination.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book IV (Arnobius)
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
5. Augustine replied: O hateful mixture of ignorance and cunning! Why do you put arguments in the mouth of your opponent, which no one that knows you would use? We do not call you Pagans, or a schism of Pagans; but we say that you resemble them in worshipping many gods. But you are far worse than Pagans, for they worship things which exist, though they should not be worshipped: for idols have an existence, though for salvation they are nought. So, to worship a tree with prayers, instead of improving it by cultivation, is not to worship nothing, but to worship in a wrong way. When the apostle says that "the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God," 1 Corinthians 10:20 he means that these demons exist to whom the sacrifices are made, and with whom he wishes us not to be partakers. So, too, heaven and earth, the sea and air, the sun and moon, and the other heavenly bodies, are all objects which have a sensible existence. When the Pagans worship these as gods, or as parts of one great God (for some of them identify the universe with the Supreme Deity), they worship things which have an existence. In arguing with Pagans, we do not deny the existence of these things, but we say that they should not be worshipped; and we recommend the worship of the invisible Creator of all these things, in whom alone man can find the happiness which all allow that he desires. To those, again, who worship what is invisible and immaterial, but still is created, as the soul or mind of man, we say that happiness is not to be found in the creature even under this form, and that we must worship the true God, who is not only invisible, but unchangeable; for He alone is to be worshipped, in the enjoyment of whom the worshipper finds happiness, and without whom the soul must be wretched, whatever else it possesses. You, on the other hand, who worship things which have no existence at all except in your fictitious legends, would be nearer true piety and religion if you were Pagans, or if you were worshippers of what has an existence, though not a proper object of worship. In fact, you do not properly worship the sun, though he carries your prayers with him in his course round the heavens.
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XX (Augustine)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Our defense requires that we should at this point discuss with you the character of your gods, O you heathen, fit objects of our pity, appealing even to your own conscience to determine whether they be truly gods, as you would have it supposed, or falsely, as you are unwilling to have proved. Now this is the material part of human error, owing to the wiles of its author, that it is never free from the ignorance of error, whence your guilt is all the greater. Your eyes are open, yet they see not; your ears are unstopped, yet they hear not; though your heart beats, it is yet dull, nor does your mind understand that of which it is cognizant. If indeed the enormous perverseness (of your worship) could be broken up by a single demurrer, we should have our objection ready to hand in the declaration that, as we know all those gods of yours to have been instituted by men, all belief in the true Deity is by this very circumstance brought to nought; because, of course, nothing which some time or other had a beginning can rightly seem to be divine.

...

Chapter 3. The Physical Philosophers Maintained the Divinity of the Elements; The Absurdity of the Tenet Exposed.
From these developments of opinion, we see that your physical class of philosophers are driven to the necessity of contending that the elements are gods, since it alleges that other gods are sprung from them; for it is only from gods that gods could be born. Now, although we shall have to examine these other gods more fully in the proper place, in the mythic section of the poets, yet, inasmuch as we must meanwhile treat of them in their connection with the present class, we shall probably even from their present class, when once we turn to the gods themselves, succeed in showing that they can by no means appear to be gods who are said to be sprung from the elements; so that we have at once a presumption that the elements are not gods, since they which are born of the elements are not gods. In like manner, while we show that the elements are not gods, we shall, according to the law of natural relationship, get a presumptive argument that they cannot rightly be maintained to be gods whose parents (in this case the elements) are not gods. It is a settled point that a god is born of a god, and that what lacks divinity is born of what is not divine. Now, so far as the world of which your philosophers treat (for I apply this term to the universe in the most comprehensive sense ) contains the elements, ministering to them as its component parts (for whatever its own condition may be, the same of course will be that of its elements and constituent portions), it must needs have been formed either by some being, according to the enlightened view of Plato, or else by none, according to the harsh opinion of Epicurus; and since it was formed, by having a beginning, it must also have an end. That, therefore, which at one time before its beginning had no existence, and will by and by after its end cease to have an existence, cannot of course, by any possibility, seem to be a god, wanting as it does that essential character of divinity, eternity, which is reckoned to be without beginning, and without end. If, however, it is in no wise formed, and therefore ought to be accounted divine — since, as divine, it is subject neither to a beginning nor an end of itself — how is it that some assign generation to the elements, which they hold to be gods, when the Stoics deny that anything can be born of a god? Likewise, how is it that they wish those beings, whom they suppose to be born of the elements, to be regarded as gods, when they deny that a god can be born? Now, what must hold good of the universe will have to be predicated of the elements, I mean of heaven, and of earth, and of the stars, and of fire, which Varro has vainly proposed that you should believe to be gods, and the parents of gods, contrary to that generation and nativity which he had declared to be impossible in a god. Now this same Varro had shown that the earth and the stars were animated. But if this be the case, they must needs be also mortal, according to the condition of animated nature; for although the soul is evidently immortal, this attribute is limited to it alone: it is not extended to that with which it is associated, that is, the body. Nobody, however, will deny that the elements have body, since we both touch them and are touched by them, and we see certain bodies fall down from them. If, therefore, they are animated, laying aside the principle of a soul, as befits their condition as bodies, they are mortal — of course not immortal. And yet whence is it that the elements appear to Varro to be animated? Because, forsooth, the elements have motion. And then, in order to anticipate what may be objected on the other side, that many things else have motion — as wheels, as carriages, as several other machines — he volunteers the statement that he believes only such things to be animated as move of themselves, without any apparent mover or impeller from without, like the apparent mover of the wheel, or propeller of the carriage, or director of the machine. If, then, they are not animated, they have no motion of themselves. Now, when he thus alleges a power which is not apparent, he points to what it was his duty to seek after, even the creator and controller of the motion; for it does not at once follow that, because we do not see a thing, we believe that it does not exist. Rather, it is necessary the more profoundly to investigate what one does not see, in order the better to understand the character of that which is apparent. Besides if (you admit) only the existence of those things which appear and are supposed to exist simply because they appear, how is it that you also admit them to be gods which do not appear? If, moreover, those things seem to have existence which have none, why may they not have existence also which do not seem to have it? Such, for instance, as the Mover of the heavenly beings. Granted, then, that things are animated because they move of themselves, and that they move of themselves when they are not moved by another: still it does not follow that they must straightway be gods, because they are animated, nor even because they move of themselves; else what is to prevent all animals whatever being accounted gods, moving as they do of themselves? This, to be sure, is allowed to the Egyptians, but their superstitious vanity has another basis.

CHURCH FATHERS: Ad Nationes, Book II (Tertullian)
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
13. Because of the Christians, my opponents say, the gods inflict upon us all calamities, and ruin is brought on our crops by the heavenly deities. I ask when you say these things, do you not see that you are accusing us with bare-faced effrontery, with palpable and clearly proved falsehoods? It is almost three hundred years — something less or more — since we Christians began to exist, and to be taken account of in the world. During all these years, have wars been incessant, has there been a yearly failure of the crops, has there been no peace on earth, has there been no season of cheapness and abundance of all things? For this must first be proved by him who accuses us, that these calamities have been endless and incessant, that men have never had a breathing time at all, and that without any relaxation they have undergone dangers of many forms.CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book I (Arnobius)
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
For with respect to this you have been in the habit of exciting against us the most violent ill-will, of calling us atheists, and inflicting upon us the punishment of death, even by savagely tearing us to pieces with wild beasts, on the ground that we pay very little respect to the gods; which, indeed, we admit that we do, not from contempt or scorn of the divine, but because we think that such powers require nothing of the kind, and are not possessed by desires for such things.
CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book VII (Arnobius)
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Some have advanced the opinion that there are both good and bad gods; but some, thinking more respectfully of the gods, have attributed to them so much honor and praise as to preclude the supposition of any god being wicked. But those who have maintained that there are wicked gods as well as good ones have included the demons under the name gods, and sometimes though more rarely, have called the gods demons; so that they admit that Jupiter, whom they make the king and head of all the rest, is called a demon by Homer. Those, on the other hand, who maintain that the gods are all good, and far more excellent than the men who are justly called good, are moved by the actions of the demons, which they can neither deny nor impute to the gods whose goodness they affirm, to distinguish between gods and demons; so that, whenever they find anything offensive in the deeds or sentiments by which unseen spirits manifest their power, they believe this to proceed not from the gods, but from the demons.
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book IX (St. Augustine)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In short, the last group of quotes demonstrates throughout time, even in the time period you referred to that Christians were tortured and killed for their faith and opposition to pagan gods. Christians also wrote against pagan gods.
 
Upvote 0