I am against Calvinism and you are against Arminianism.
This thread doesn't hinge on whether I answer or not.
Do you think you could let us know your conclusion this time? You seem to do this a lot. Then you find a new thread and regurgitate the same ol' anti-Calvinistic rhetoric.
And?
No, but it's tiring and counter-productive when you continually play the "let me think more about that" card only to never think more about it, and come back to thread after thread repeating the same arguments over and over. I'm going to hold you to it this time.
Not at all. Now you've confessed yourself an Arminian you must admit to having God look down the tunnel of time to see who would believe and elect them. If this is the case, He could look down the tunnel of time, see who would WILLINGLY choose Him, and create only them. Job done. No unbelievers to condemn and free will unimpaired?
"Truth cannot be spoken without love, for without love there IS no Truth, regardless of how accurate the words may be."
And would you say that there is no love without free will?
And would you say that there is no love without free will?
I seriously cannot believe you are still attacking this straw man. I cannot count the number of times I have explained free will to you.
It is usually the synergist's contention that the following are true:
-God is doing everything He can to keep people out of hell
-God wishes that every single human being escape hell and end up in heaven
-God treats everyone perfectly equally for the sake of fairness, regarding their salvation
Not at all. Now you've confessed yourself an Arminian you must admit to having God look down the tunnel of time to see who would believe and elect them.
I am not attacking anyone griff. I was just asking a question. That is all.
-God is doing everything He can to send most babies to hell
4) Speaking of fairness, if God desperately wishes everyone would be saved, why does He allow such diverse situations in the human race? For example, some Americans are born in the Bible belt where there is a church on every corner, access to TV channels where the gospel is proclaimed, access to people in their neighbourhoods and schools and work places who are Christians, for the possibility of interacting with those Christians and receiving the gospel message or seeing the Lord work the lives of those people as a powerful testimony to the fact that God does indeed change lives.
Other people are born in remote jungle tribes who have no idea who Jesus is, no access to missionaries, no TV channels, etc. The American person in our example lives a comfortable life so he has plenty of time to sit and ponder whether there is truth to the Bible's claims. The other person in the jungle doesn't even know what the Bible is, much less have time to sit around pondering such things, as he is more concerned with surviving and drinking fresh water. In fact, if he came across a Bible, it might not even be in his language.
Is that fair? Did God truly give the same chance and opportunity to these two people?
GoodIt is usually the synergist's contention that the following are true:
-God is doing everything He can to keep people out of hell
-God wishes that every single human being escape hell and end up in heaven
-God treats everyone perfectly equally for the sake of fairness, regarding their salvation
If those are all true, I have some questions for my synergist brothers and sisters:
Those individuals that live for a while and do not go to heaven, fulfill a lessor objective of helping those that will go to heaven to make those free will choice to accept Gods help (charity). Think about it like this: would it be a humbling experience to be born into a world where everyone went to heaven or would that be somewhat of a prideful position (heaven is your birth right). You have to remember why humans spend time on earth in the first place (our objective while here) and see that removing the option of hell, would not help us to freely choose to humbly accept Gods charity.1) God foreknew whether every single person in the race would believe or not, before he created them. For example, God knew that if he created Bob, Bob would never believe and end up in hell. Why did God create Bob, then? If God doesn't want any human being to end up in hell, why didn't God only create those human beings he foreknew would willingly believe? That way, he'd have an entire human race of willing believers, and nobody in hell.
Again, what helps willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective? If no one died before 100 years, would that encourage people to be serious about the choices while their young? Does the fact that we could die tomorrow, help influence our decisions today? Does the fact other could die tomorrow help us in serving them today?2) Why do some people die earlier than others? Some people die at age 15 in tragic car accidents, before they had a chance to give the gospel some consideration and submit to Jesus. However, other people live until nearly 100 years of age, and more. Is that fair? Why didn't God give those two people an equal opportunity? He can easily extend the lives of all human beings so that they live the maximum amount of time in order to make the all important decision of turning to Jesus.
This is the best question you asked. It is similar to why do saved Christians continue to live on earth.3) (This question is aimed at synergists who believe one can lose his/her salvation) Since God is in control of when we live or die, if you can lose your salvation, why doesn't God kill you during the time you are in the "saved state"? Isn't He doing everything he can do to keep you out of hell?
Does that situation make for Christ like people that sacrificially, totally unselfishly serve others? Or would one of the small communities in Communist China that has a small poor house church with all 20 member showing true Christianity (totally unselfish sacrificial Love at great risk of bodily harm), be a better place?4) Speaking of fairness, if God desperately wishes everyone would be saved, why does He allow such diverse situations in the human race? For example, some Americans are born in the Bible belt where there is a church on every corner, access to TV channels where the gospel is proclaimed, access to people in their neighbourhoods and schools and work places who are Christians, for the possibility of interacting with those Christians and receiving the gospel message or seeing the Lord work the lives of those people as a powerful testimony to the fact that God does indeed change lives.
Do you really believe Americans are sitting around: pondering whether there is truth to the Bible's claims? That is not the America I live in.Other people are born in remote jungle tribes who have no idea who Jesus is, no access to missionaries, no TV channels, etc. The American person in our example lives a comfortable life so he has plenty of time to sit and ponder whether there is truth to the Bible's claims. The other person in the jungle doesn't even know what the Bible is, much less have time to sit around pondering such things, as he is more concerned with surviving and drinking fresh water. In fact, if he came across a Bible, it might not even be in his language.
YesIs that fair? Did God truly give the same chance and opportunity to these two people?
So we as Christians have tons of opportunity in this life to grow our Love through allowing the Spirit to work through us helping others?Ask any missionary and they will tell you there are huge amounts of people groups that have never heard the name of Jesus. Not only in uncivilized parts of the world, but in civilized parts, too.
The underground Church in China is growing more and faster true Christian than maybe anywhere else in the world today. The best estimates are coming at or above 100 million Christians in the unground church. Does severe persecution of Christians help or hurt in the spread of Christianity (look at the first three centuries)?In some countries, Christianity is illegal. Do Chinese people have the same chance as Americans? Americans can go to a Christian church freely to ask questions about Jesus and ponder eternal, spiritual things. Certain countries in Asia, not so much. Is that really equal and fair?
Yes.5) More on fairness: Both angels and humans are guilty for sin. God provided a salvation plan for humans, but none for angels. There is no plan of redemption for fallen angels.
Is that fair?
I did in post 36.Before this thread gets too far off, I hope more people will address the 4th question in the OP:
Just curious - how do babies get saved in your position? You're the one who insists that an autonomous free will decision is necessary. So how do babies do that?
That is never the synergists contention. Let's play this deceptive game with you.
It is usually the Calvinist's contention that the following are true:
-God is doing everything He can to send most babies to hell
-God wishes that most human beings are cast into hell and kept out of heaven
-God is partial in how he treats people and is unfair in his dealing with most of mankind.
I think the question is a fine one crimsonleaf.
I am assuming that you are talking about God looking at a simulation of creation that precedes the actual real physical one. If so, would it still be possible for God (in the simulation) to say such words as:
And the Lord God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.
(Genesis 2:16,17)
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