questions for ReformedTruth

[justsurfing]

Hi RT, thankyou for speaking clearly about Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that "God ordains whosoever comes to pass." That does not mean permissive will. That means exhaustive determinism, everything is predetermined by God.

One need only subject one's self to the authority of God and His Word to know that all things are predetermined, known in advance... and worked by God's sovereign will throughout time:

Psalm 139:15-17 (New International Version)



15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to [a] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!


Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,



Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.


It is easy to deny God and to claim to be in great power and control... far from God. The more closely one approaches God, however, the more impossible it becomes. (There are many stories in the Bible of men fainting, etc., etc... can't even speak... when they see God as He truly is... up close... and personal.)


How close or how far one is from God can be measured, imo, by how much one asserts one's own will and ways over His. God says man is nothing. The further we are from God, as i read the bible, the more men say man is something.

2 Chronicles 20:6
and said: "O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not the God who is in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. Power and might are in your hand, and no one can withstand you.

The degree to which we are subjected in our hearts (not our heads) to the rule of God by His Love... determines our own proximity to God in respect and worship. But our opinions of our own greatness and God's impotence doesn't really determine whether or not God truly rules from Heaven over the affairs of men.



Opinions are just opinions. They reveal where our own hearts are.



"As a man thinketh in is heart so he is."




All could be left in no better hands than God to pre-determine all things. God alone is good. We're completely guaranteed of positive outcome. God is all-powerful, all-knowing,... completely holy and good... God is Love.



Some men place greater confidence in the flesh than in God. I want no confidence in the flesh.



My confidence is in: God who Created and Rules All.



Christians cry out for God's perfect will to be done in their perfect submission to God's Love.



Sinners want permissive will and "freedom" to do as they will: sin as the center of their own worlds and master of their own souls. That's what Christ-centered and mature Christians strive to outgrow, imo.

 

[justsurfing]

Oh no no, don't get me wrong. I didn't believe for a minute you were a hyper-calvinist. In fact, I'm not sure I even like the term, but it seems to fit those who believe they are taking Calvin's logic to a more logical conclusion, if you will. Thus they talk about God, being the author of sin, etc.. At least that's what ReformedTruth has claimed.

There is an error in Calvinism. The "L". In my opinion, Reformed Truth is bringing logic to it's natural conclusion with the "L" in place. God would be a hateful, cruel, vengeful person at least to some... and must have really wanted to create people to torture them because He has "one hell" uva mean streak.

Let's face the truth. If God had even only been "omnicient" and knowingly created people to spend eternity in hell.... He'd have "one hell" of a mean streak.

Reformed is seeing God with "one hell" of a mean streak revealed in His sovereignty... and God pre-destining men to eternity in hell. ( that's a biblical translation error leading to foundational doctrine error, imo.)

Reformed is honest, imo, and what we believe... about God... powerfully effects our souls. We "take it in"...

ouch.

It's very painful, let me personally testify, to believe that God willfully created persons to spend eternity in hell. I can personally testify to try to "submit" to that and to be "conformed to the image of God"... when that's the image... hurts like hell (for a reason)..

Hell is part of the character of God in these views... whether people realize it or not... and hell begins powerfully causing pain to our inne beings when we believe hell is a part of the character of God.

The closer we get to God... the more it hurts.

And we all need a coping method... to suppress... or act out... pain.

Anyway, I just wanted you to feel free to answer, even though the questions were not directed to you initially. I appreciate your input. I really have no problem with traditional classical calvinists. I worship with them every Sunday and share their core beliefs. I just disagree with their logic on some things.

Thanks, God bless.

But I definitely disagree with hyper-calvinistic beliefs (until I can come up with a better term) which claim God causes them to sin and similar things of that nature. In fact I'm wondering if they even know the Lord. I’m kind of having fun with this discussion, but on second thought, I’m saddened if this person is holding to a false view of God and therefore a false faith.

God is 100% sovereign. But if throughout eternity... hell exists... isn't Reformed right to believe God rather enjoys (I'm sorry if I misunderstood - but that's what I understood him to say - that it was for God's "glory" and "good pleasure") torturing people?

God would make Hitler and Stalin and Lenon and Hussein, etc. all combined look "weak" if He was sovereign (He is) and created people to torture in hell for eternity.

It was great to realize... it was just the twisting of God's Word.

I've felt..... wonderful!!!!... ever since I was... convinced of the Holy Spirit... God who is 100% Sovereign and Love... will allow no evil, nor hell, to exist eternally.



God bless!

js

 

[Calminian]

One need only subject one's self to the authority of God and His Word to know that all things are predetermined, known in advance... and worked by God's sovereign will throughout time:

Actually, to be totally biblical, they are predetermined in accordance with (based on) what is known in advance. All arminians would agree with this.

 

[Calminian]

I've felt..... wonderful!!!!... ever since I was... convinced of the Holy Spirit... God who is 100% Sovereign and Love... will allow no evil, nor hell, to exist eternally.

Eek. That's another thread.

 

[Van]

This thread was written for RT to answer some questions concerning true Calvinism. Now what we have are the guys who practice doublespeak according to RT answering for him. What a fine kettle of fish.

First we have Psalm 139 offered up with the unstated false assertion that God provides the same level of influence on everyone as He did on David. Which of course is unbiblical. God treats people differently. To say I want the same or more than the other guy is to practice the sin of covetness. RT enshrines that sin as a tradition of men. What the scripture actually teaches is that God had chosen Christ to be His Redeemer, and had a predetermined purpose and plan, and David was predestined at least from the womb, to play a part in that plan.

I think it is rich for RT advocates to talk about submitting to the authority of the Word, when their whole doctrine is built on inference, on what the Word does not say.

Then we have the NIV mistranslation of Ephesians 1:11 presented as the Word. What it actually says is after having been spiritually placed "in Him" we have also obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will. Thus after we are chosen and placed in Christ, we have obtained an inheritance, because our receiving it is predestined. Once in Christ, two blessings are predestined, to be conformed to the image of Christ, and to be bodily resurrected unto eternal life, which is our predestined inheritance as a born again child of God.

And now lets look at Philippians 2:13 for support for exhaustive determinism. God is at work in us, yet we still sin. Is our sinning, which we are stiving to minimize actually the will of God, and therefore since whatever we do, it was predestined by God, we should do whatever feels good? Folks, this is not the Word of God, and those who support such a view, all things are predestined by God, God has ordained whosoever comes to pass, are presenting unbiblical doctrines.

 

[Spade48d]

Hello Van,

You seem to be challenging the NIV translations. Do the following e-sword examples also give you pause?

I have been relying on Rotherham and CLV. Is there a better translation that we should all be using to help us discuss these issues from a single source?

Ephesians 1:11

(ALT) in Him in whom also we were appointed by lot [or, obtained an inheritance], having been predestined according to the purpose [or, plan] of the One supernaturally working all [things] according to the counsel [or, intention] of His will,

(ASV) in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

(CLV) in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

(DRB) In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will.

(ESV) In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

(ISV) In Christ we were also chosen when we were predestined according to the purpose of the one who does everything according to the intention of his will,



(KJVR) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

(Rotherham) In whom also we were taken as an inheritance, according to the purpose of him who energiseth all things according to the counsel of his will,

Phi 2:13

(ALT) for God is the One supernaturally working in you* both to be desiring and to be supernaturally working for the sake of His good pleasure.

(ASV) for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

(CLV) for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

(DRB) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

(ESV) for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

(ISV) For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.

(KJV+) For1063 it is2076 God2316 which worketh1754 in1722 you5213 both2532 to will2309 and2532 to do1754 of his5228 good pleasure.2107

(KJVR) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

(Rotherham) For it is, God, who energiseth within you, both the desiring and the energising, in behalf of his good pleasure.

 

[Van]

Hi Spade48, I take it your question is why did I say the NIV mistranslated Ephesians 1:11?

I use the NASB for study purposes. But I like the NIV, the ESV, and the NKJV because sometimes, they offer a better, more literal translation. But when a verse causes a problem I go to the interlinear version to see what the Greek actually says. Now the Critical Text is the one I believe presents the best version of the New Testament in the original Greek. But some tranlations, such as the NKJV, are not based on the Critical Text.

So the NASB reads "In Him [or literally In Whom] also we have obtained an inheritance...." There is no "we have been chosen in Him." That is a mistranslation.

The idea is that in Christ we are made an heir of God, thus we have because we are "in Him" we have obtained an inheritance. Now the same Greek word is used in secular writings to mean being chosen by lot, but that is not the idea of the word as used in the NT. Rather it is being "alloted a heritage" because we are "in Hiim."

So in the versions you quoted, the ALT misses the mark, the ASV is a good translation, the CLV misses the mark, the DRB misses the mark, the ESV is a good translation, the ISV completely misses the mark, the KJVR is a good translation.

I did not find fault with the NIV Philippian 2:13 translation, but rather the misinterpretation. The verse is discussing our life "in Christ" after we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, who is at work in us, yet we still sin. Therefore exhaustive determinism is unbiblical, because if God's work in us was causing all our thoughts and actions, God would be causing us to sin, rather than allowing us to sin. The NASB version reads, "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. The idea is influence, not exhaustive control.

As far as the Philippians 2:13 translations you quoted, only the ISV and the ALT miss the mark. All the rest read like the NASB, ESV, NKJV and NIV. When all four of these provide a uniform version, you can have a high degree of confidence the translation is a good one.

 

[Van]

Hi RT, do you agree with this summary of Calvinism? God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass, you were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and nothing you can do during your lifetime will alter that foreordained outcome, not praying for yourselves or your loved ones, not reading the Bible to your kids, not anything.

 

[Bob L]

Actually, the verse in Ephesians has been misunderstood by Arminians and Calvinists alike for so many years, probably because Augustine misunderstood it himself. The verse is not saying anyone in particular was predestined to election. It's not even saying that any special group was corporately predestined to election. The corollary of these two items, that some other individuals or group were reprobated by the way is not in scripture, it is a logical fallacy that has caused the whole Calvinist debacle that we have today.

No, what the scripture is saying is that it has now been revealed that Gentiles also have a way into God's kingdom, along with Israel. That's all Paul is saying.

The traslation "In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance..." is the best one and it definitely shows that through Christ the gentiles have also obtained an inheritance that was once thought only belonged to the Israelites.

 

[Bob L]

Originally Posted by ReformedTruth
For example, and I forgot the guy`s name, but does anyone remember that greasy, moley looking little bald guy in Florida they just sent to the chair? I mean the one that just kidnapped an 8 year old girl, raped her in a house trailer for a week, then buried her alive in a garbage bag? Well this all was ordained by the hand of God, every cry of pain from the girl, down to the selection of the brand of bag to bury her in. And if you claim God was just watching that is blasphemy. He directed it. Weak Calvinists can try and skirt it any way they like.


Ok, RT, wow. Seriously, wow. Why do you say you are a Christian? Why not a Muslim? You both believe the same things. What you have said here is the penultimate example of everything that is wrong with Calvinism. You couldn't be more blatant, more inflammitory. You couldn't possibly hope to prove more easily how wrong Calvinism MUST be. So for those fence-sitters who read about Calvinism, I hope you post early and often for it will get them off the fence and running as far away from evil doctrine as possible.

But now for you, would you like to really investigate what you believe? I know, or rather I hope that htere is some part of you, somewhere, that looks at your post and goes "?!?!?!?! Is this what I really believe?" Because if there is, then maybe we can do something about it. There was once a time when I was not too far different from you. I had read the entire Bible, understood it's basic teachings well enough, and believed that the Bible was the Holy Word of God. but when I looked at some specific texts, I didn't know exactly what they meant. They seemed like they could be contradictory to what I knew about God, about what He told me though the rest of Scripture. And I'm not talking about those various scriptures where the author speaks in a very strong voice, using exaggeration to make a point, no I mean the texts that seemed to go completely against what I thought the rest of scripture said.

The predestination scriptures are the ones I'm talking about the most. The funny thing is, those scriptures come inside epistles but the surroundg texts and chapters seem not to even notice them. It's not like the potter and the clay analogy dominates the entire epistle of Romans, it's just one small part in Chapter 9. Well, probably as you did, and as many have done, I researched Christian authors who wrote about these texts and I found Arminians and Calvinists. I rejected the Arminian point of view right away, it seemed like such a stretch. But the Calvinist doctrines troubled me too. First it seemed that they took the aforementioned exaggerated scriptures and made them laws, and then threw away concepts that seemed so central to the Bible throughout it's entirety! But the worst of all, if I followed the teachings of Augustine, Luther, and Calvin all the way to their conclusion, I came out where you did in the quote above. But I had enough sense to know that that HAD to be wrong.

So I went further. You know, I found that the predestination texts that have been so hotly debated don't have to fall into either the Arminian or Calvinist teachings. It's not set in stone that it's an either/or decision. And before you get too excited, I don't espouse some wishy-washy combination of the two that leads to some hybrid bastardization that's undefenseable.

If you would like, if you feel that you would be open minded to a true exploration of what you believe I'd like to have a discussion with you.

 

[Bob L]

Justsurfing, do you really believe that God's sovreignty means he does all things? That's absurd. It's illogical and it's unbiblical. It's also certainly not in the quotes you posted. Sovreign means to be able to do anything one wishes to do. God's sovreignty means he CAN do all things, not that he DOES all things. In fact, if you beleive that God does all things then you are making Him UNsovreign. You are taking away His ability to decide what He wants to do.

By saying God does all things, you are saying to God that He has to do everything. When does the creation think it can put the Creator into a box like that? My God, the Creator of the Universe can do anything He wants. He can even choose to create beings (angels, humans) and give them the ability to do somethings on their own. If you believe that God can't make creatures that can do things on their own, then you're God is not sovreign enough for me.