Reformationist:
Every Christian I know hold the Bible as God's Word and strives to be obedient. With that in mind, how do you come to the conclusion that "Christians believe that Jesus freed us from the need to obey the Law?"
I've already pointed it out to you several times already, I'm beginning to wonder how many more times I'm going to be required to do so. You've already told me that you do not observe the Sabbath, you do not observe the kosher laws, and you don't even know what the biblical festivals (e.g. Sukkot, Shavuot, etc) are. You are not being taught Torah. God commanded us to observe these commandments and by not doing so, you are transgressing His commandments.
The Torah is the very *foundation* of all scripture. Every book of scripture was tested against the Torah to determine whether or not it was the Inspired Word of God or not. Any book which contradicted Torah was not accepted as Inspired.
In literal terms, the Torah refers to the first five books of the bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). These books contain the 613 mitzvot (commandments) of the Torah, but you are not being taught these commandments and are not being taught to obey them. In general terms, the Torah refers to *EVERY* book of the bible because every book teaches Torah -- anything that taught against Torah was thrown out.
Knight:
I am not "judging" anybody. I am not saying I'm "a better Christian" than anyone else. I'm simply pointing a very serious doctrinal error of Christianity. By teaching against the Torah, you might as well be teaching that one doesn't have to accept Yeshua as their Savior, because it amounts to the same thing. Obedience of the Torah commandments are the
method by which we accept Yeshua as our Savior. It is the Marriage Covenant.
Israel transgressed God's commandments of the Torah for 2000 years before the birth of Messiah, and it has continued to transgress His commandments for the 2000 years *after* His death. Man hasn't learned anything in 2000 years and he hasn't learned anything in 6000 years.
Rome considered any nation of people that would not accept the "superiority" of Roman culture to be "inferior." Jews were held in contempt. Constantine was anti-semitic and hated the Jews, and so when he declared Christianity to be the "official" religion of Rome, he certainly wasn't about to adopt what he considered to be "Jewish superstition." Instead, he forced Christians and Jews to take this oath:
Constantine's Creed:
...As a preliminary to his acceptance as a catechumen, a Jew "Must confess
and denounce verbally, the whole of Hebrew people, forthwith declare that with a whole heart and sincere faith he desires to be received among the Christians. Then he must renounce openly in the church all Jewish superstition, the priest saying, and he, or his sponsor if he is
a child, replying in these words:
I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of the lambs of the Hebrews, all of the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications, propitiations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants, and observances of the synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I now renounce absolutely everything Jewish, every law-abiding custom and if afterwards I should wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with the Jews or feasting with them or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain, and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.
Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, santifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath the Sol Dei (Sun Day) all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.
Michie:
Let me ask you this, you said that "Basically, the main difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believe that Yeshua "freed us from the need to obey the Torah" while Messianic Judaism holds that Yeshua freed us to walk *in* it."
When Jesus/Yeshua said He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it, etc.
Matthew 5:17
And where in Luke 16:17 where it is said it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the law?
What is the Messianic Jew's take on these verses?
Does this have anything to do with the way Messianic Jews see their freedom to walk in the ways of the Torah?
Yes, we view Matthew 5:17-18 as very important verses.
Moses taught the children of Israel that if any "prophet" or "dreamer of dreams" came along, performing signs and wonders, and yet taught them to abandon the Torah, they were to recognize him as a false prophet / false Messiah. Then, along comes Yeshua, performing signs and wonders, and Christianity claims that He "freed us from the Torah." If that were the case, then Christianity has just made the best possible case that Yeshua *cannot* be the Messiah.
But, of course, I believe that Yeshua *IS* the Messiah, and therefore I recognize that He could not possibly have taught against obedience of the Torah commandments. In Matthew 5:17-18, He shows us exactly that: He states, emphatically that He had *NOT* come to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill it. "Fulfill" is not a synonym for "abolish," "render obsolete," or "do away with." Yeshua died because of our transgression of His commandments, not so that we could turn around and start transgressing His commandments all over again.
Shimon
