Questions for a rational Christian.

InquizitiveAtheist said:

As a scientist, and as a non-believer, I want to ask a few questions to a Christian. I do this to try and understand why you have come to the conclusions you have, and hopefully to gain insight to your way of life.

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I am not sure insight into my way of life will be of any advantage to anyone, but ask away.

InquizitiveAtheist said:

Without being specific to Christianity, if at all possible, could you explain to me why you believe in a God or a higher power?

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Because I have met him.

And his Son. And his angels. And the Holy Spirit. And many many brothers and sisters who have also met him.

Same as any relationship. You might not believe the Queen exists, but once you have met her, you cannot go back to believing she is not there. You can lose faith in her, or perhaps fall out with her, but she is still around, somewhere.

InquizitiveAtheist said:

Those of you that said you were called or spoken to by God/Jesus, could you please try and clarify for me? Are we talking voices in your head, a desire you did not have before, or something else?

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Yes, voices in your head. But these are the same as thoughts. It is like when you memorise a poem, and bits of it come to you from time to time. If you read the Bible, then bits will pop into your head at times, and they will often be appropriate to a particular situation. Or it might be completely new words, not from the Bible.

From a psychological perspective, you might call this intuition, or conscience, or something similar. It is the same thing. Either way, you learn something you didn't know that you knew, and it supports you in whatever you are trying to achieve. It doesn't really matter what you call it, but I would say it is the still small voice of God.

My second set of questions, if anyone will be so good as to answer, revolve around why you felt the need to pick a religion to accompany your belief in God.

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I am not interested in the book, except as it allows us to identify and learn about the character of Christ. He is the foundation for my faith, and he is my example. Quite frankly, a lot of Christianity outside the person and example of Christ is rather repellant to me, but as long as I follow him, and try not to associate myself with the rest, then I am happy. And that, after all, is all that we are called to do.

As for convincing anyone else of our faith; that is simple. If anyone, anywhere were to get a glimpse of the love of Christ, made manifest in the lives of Christians, then they would want to know Christ.

It is a shameful indictment on our faith that it is far too often instead characterised by bigotry, pointscoring, playing Bible poker and oneupmanship, none of which is demanded of us as Christians. What is demanded is that we love one another, as Christ loves us. Nothing more, nothing less. And it takes a lifetime to learn how to do this.

Catherineanne said:

Yes, voices in your head. But these are the same as thoughts. It is like when you memorise a poem, and bits of it come to you from time to time. If you read the Bible, then bits will pop into your head at times, and they will often be appropriate to a particular situation. Or it might be completely new words, not from the Bible.

From a psychological perspective, you might call this intuition, or conscience, or something similar. It is the same thing. Either way, you learn something you didn't know that you knew, and it supports you in whatever you are trying to achieve. It doesn't really matter what you call it, but I would say it is the still small voice of God.



I am not interested in the book, except as it allows us to identify and learn about the character of Christ. He is the foundation for my faith, and he is my example. Quite frankly, a lot of Christianity outside the person and example of Christ is rather repellant to me, but as long as I follow him, and try not to associate myself with the rest, then I am happy. And that, after all, is all that we are called to do.

As for convincing anyone else of our faith; that is simple. If anyone, anywhere were to get a glimpse of the love of Christ, made manifest in the lives of Christians, then they would want to know Christ.

It is a shameful indictment on our faith that it is far too often instead characterised by bigotry, pointscoring, playing Bible poker and oneupmanship, none of which is demanded of us as Christians. What is demanded is that we love one another, as Christ loves us. Nothing more, nothing less. And it takes a lifetime to learn how to do this.

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Hmm... maybe it DOES take a lifetime, Catherineann! I've been a Believer for 50 years. And at last I do love all my brothers and sisters, and everyone else too, because the Holy Spirit has put this love into my life! Extremely amazing and wonderful, I think!!!

Blessings to all!


- Bondman (ministering the Good News of the Gospel)

Bondman said:

Hmm... maybe it DOES take a lifetime, Catherineann! I've been a Believer for 50 years. And at last I do love all my brothers and sisters, and everyone else too, because the Holy Spirit has put this love into my life! Extremely amazing and wonderful, I think!!!

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You missed a bit, Bondsman. I have no doubt you love all the people you say you do.

But what takes a lifetime is to learn how to love your brothers and sisters as Christ loves us. His love is not just a warm fuzzy feeling inside, but sacrificial and endless giving of himself for our benefit; a pouring out of himself for us.

That takes a lot of doing, even for those we are close to. It is certainly not possible to do for everyone around us, without a great deal of hard work. It does not come naturally, nor even by the Holy Spirit. It comes from an effort of will, with a great deal of prayer. It comes from wrestling with God, and with our own inner nature. It comes at a great cost, and it is not possible to say that we can do this for everyone on earth, or easily.

To say that is to misunderstand what love is, and in particular what Christ's love is. To demonstrate such love is sometimes to pray, as he did, alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, for the strength to go against the whole world, if necessary, in order to reveal God's love in the world. It is sometimes to descend into Hades itself, in order to grasp a soul out of the hands of satan himself, and to bring that soul back to life and to the realisation of God's love, made manifest in our love. Christ did it, and we can follow his example.

We are too small, and too feeble, to be able to do this for many people in our lives. I have been a Christian almost as long as your good self, and I would not claim that I have been able to do more than attempt this love for more than 20 people; maybe half that number. Christ's love is not at all easy, and certainly nothing to do with our own warm feelings or emotional responses.

Catherineanne said:

You missed a bit, Bondsman. I have no doubt you love all the people you say you do.

But what takes a lifetime is to learn how to love your brothers and sisters as Christ loves us. His love is not just a warm fuzzy feeling inside, but sacrificial and endless giving of himself for our benefit; a pouring out of himself for us.

That takes a lot of doing, even for those we are close to. It is certainly not possible to do for everyone around us, without a great deal of hard work. It does not come naturally, nor even by the Holy Spirit. It comes from an effort of will, with a great deal of prayer. It comes from wrestling with God, and with our own inner nature. It comes at a great cost, and it is not possible to say that we can do this for everyone on earth, or easily.

To say that is to misunderstand what love is, and in particular what Christ's love is. To demonstrate such love is sometimes to pray, as he did, alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, for the strength to go against the whole world, if necessary, in order to reveal God's love in the world. It is sometimes to descend into Hades itself, in order to grasp a soul out of the hands of satan himself, and to bring that soul back to life and to the realisation of God's love, made manifest in our love. Christ did it, and we can follow his example.

We are too small, and too feeble, to be able to do this for many people in our lives. I have been a Christian almost as long as your good self, and I would not claim that I have been able to do more than attempt this love for more than 20 people; maybe half that number. Christ's love is not at all easy, and certainly nothing to do with our own warm feelings or emotional responses.

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CatherineAnne,
I respectfully disagree. The love of Christ is a powerful thing. I believe Bondman when he says that he loves like this. I believe it because I had zero love inside of me before becoming a Christian, and now, I really, truly do love people. Not just other believers, but everyone. Is it sacrificial? You better believe it. I would give my life for a stranger now, and that is the power of the love of Christ.

Maybe, love is more evident to those of us who did not have it before. I do not know Bondman's story, so this may not be true for him, but I KNOW it is true for me.

Lisa

Catherineanne said:

You missed a bit, Bondsman. I have no doubt you love all the people you say you do.

But what takes a lifetime is to learn how to love your brothers and sisters as Christ loves us. His love is not just a warm fuzzy feeling inside, but sacrificial and endless giving of himself for our benefit; a pouring out of himself for us.

That takes a lot of doing, even for those we are close to. It is certainly not possible to do for everyone around us, without a great deal of hard work. It does not come naturally, nor even by the Holy Spirit. It comes from an effort of will, with a great deal of prayer. It comes from wrestling with God, and with our own inner nature. It comes at a great cost, and it is not possible to say that we can do this for everyone on earth, or easily.

To say that is to misunderstand what love is, and in particular what Christ's love is. To demonstrate such love is sometimes to pray, as he did, alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, for the strength to go against the whole world, if necessary, in order to reveal God's love in the world. It is sometimes to descend into Hades itself, in order to grasp a soul out of the hands of satan himself, and to bring that soul back to life and to the realisation of God's love, made manifest in our love. Christ did it, and we can follow his example.

We are too small, and too feeble, to be able to do this for many people in our lives. I have been a Christian almost as long as your good self, and I would not claim that I have been able to do more than attempt this love for more than 20 people; maybe half that number. Christ's love is not at all easy, and certainly nothing to do with our own warm feelings or emotional responses.

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Hi, I am just wanted to speak to a few of what you wrote above, with all respect.

In this lifetime we will not fully love as perfectly Jesus loves us. When we are in heaven we will.

However if someone claims they love readily, that is their truth, and you can't know the truth of another's walk; only God can.

Our growth does come by the Holy Spirit who prompts us to recall scripture bringing truths of love to mind. Reminding that we've been forgiven much, etc.

Since He is God in us, He of course is quite involved. To say it only comes by prayer and not the Holy Spirit (God), says two differnt things, you may not have meant though to write it that way.

On the last bit highlighted again, you can't know another man's walk. Only God knows. So really, you can write for how you feel, but to deny someone else has come to a certain point; well you just can't know another mans heart or walk with God.

We could die tomorrow, so saying it takes a lifetime, also, well, it takes being in heaven to love perfectly as Jesus loves for then we will see in full what we now see in part.

Since with me and my knowledge and understanding of the love of God, is inadquate compared to who He truly is. God is infinite in who He is. We will be learning forever in heaven more and more about God.

Well, just wanted to speak on those issues highlighted above.

Blessings,
tapero

Catherineanne said:

You missed a bit, Bondsman. I have no doubt you love all the people you say you do.

But what takes a lifetime is to learn how to love your brothers and sisters as Christ loves us. His love is not just a warm fuzzy feeling inside, but sacrificial and endless giving of himself for our benefit; a pouring out of himself for us.

That takes a lot of doing, even for those we are close to. It is certainly not possible to do for everyone around us, without a great deal of hard work. It does not come naturally, nor even by the Holy Spirit. It comes from an effort of will, with a great deal of prayer. It comes from wrestling with God, and with our own inner nature. It comes at a great cost, and it is not possible to say that we can do this for everyone on earth, or easily.

To say that is to misunderstand what love is, and in particular what Christ's love is. To demonstrate such love is sometimes to pray, as he did, alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, for the strength to go against the whole world, if necessary, in order to reveal God's love in the world. It is sometimes to descend into Hades itself, in order to grasp a soul out of the hands of satan himself, and to bring that soul back to life and to the realisation of God's love, made manifest in our love. Christ did it, and we can follow his example.

We are too small, and too feeble, to be able to do this for many people in our lives. I have been a Christian almost as long as your good self, and I would not claim that I have been able to do more than attempt this love for more than 20 people; maybe half that number. Christ's love is not at all easy, and certainly nothing to do with our own warm feelings or emotional responses.

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My post was in support of yours, Cathrineanne. I didn't write a lot, certainly not 'everything', as it didn't seem necessary. Lisa and tapero have written things that are correct insofar as I am concerned.

You said it takes a long time to truly love. It may well do so, we're all different - but that is why I mentioned 50 years!!! You said love for others (agape love was what I was talking about) isn't just a warm fuzzy. That's sure true! My love for others is solely God's love by His Spirit. It's not me. It is agape - God's love in and through me - else I'd never have been so 'brazen' as to state publicly that I love all people.

I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote: I wasn't saying I have actual love for 6 billion people, as that would be pretty foolish. But there is no one I'm aware of who I don't love. When I meet a new person for the first time, I immediately love them - even the most unlovely of them. In my full-time ministry to atheists and agnostics on MySpace every bit of love and forgiveness and understanding and acceptance and respect for them and where they were in life was called upon. God supplied all of that. They would swear at me, call me an idiot, etc., etc., but eventually most even came to respect me!! (while still disagreeing with me on just about everything!)




It sounds from your Profile that you've been badly let down by those calling themselves Christians. So have I, so we share a common background. My Beloved and I are both very ill people needing carers to come in for a number of hours every week to 'keep us going'. We long since lost all friends except 2 people who we see only a few times a year. We can't get to a church these past 12 to 14 years, and no church is interested in us.

But in that period we've experienced the greatest amount of personal and spiritual growth ever in our lives. It's been just me, my beloved wife and the Lord - a 'threesome', and we reckon that's a majority!!! Life is extremely hard for us. I personally have been experiencing trauma and hardships in my life now for a period of 30 unbroken years, and continuing. Tough, but man have I profited from this. For example, I can now actually rejoice at and about hardships, even as the NT says and which I always read with awe!

At 68 and so ill that I have no assurance of being here tomorrow, I prop up here at the PC for most of every day of the year (80 hours a week), having been called by the Lord to minister full-time to people on various forums, both believers and unbelievers. Apparently the Holy Spirit gives me the physical energy to do that, because there is nothing else I'm able to do. And no matter the cost, I simply LOVE the work!




As a bond-slave (bondman) of Jesus I've willingly and very deliberately given up ALL of my personal rights, completely, totally, and am fully available to Him to use (and use up) as He sees fit. Which He does. And so I call myself a 'nobody', and earnestly wish to stay that way.

Agape love IS possible. It may not come easy, but is worth seeking with all of our heart and soul. It is what makes Christianity work as without it, as 1 Corinthians 13 says, we may as well not even be here.

We can understand something of your position and feelings, and I pray God will meet your needs and bless you even as the going may remain rough for you. Seek more agape, dear heart! Seek more of Him. Forgive, and love, and expect nothing of others.

(I speak publicly of the above very seldom, and only when I feel the Lord is saying to do so.)


With all of our love and blessings!




EDIT:

Inquizitive Atheist, this may seem off-topic for what you asked. On the surface it is. At a deeper level it addresses so much of what you asked. This is REAL Christianity being lived out by REAL people, people who are far from perfect but who God has SO blessed by allowing us to find HIM and to find the TRUTH. You could do much worse than to read and learn answers to what you've asked. Bless you as you do so!


- Bondman (ministering the Good News of the Gospel)

Bondman said:

I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote: I wasn't saying I have actual love for 6 billion people, as that would be pretty foolish.

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Yep, sounded foolish to me. I struggle to manage the 20 I mentioned, let alone 6 billion.

However, I am happy to read your further comments, and to thank you for your empathy.

But I do think some people on this thread rather underestimate how difficult love can be. To paraphrase Christ, it is easy enough to love those who love us, because even tax collectors can do that. What is truly difficult is to maintain that love in the face of abuse, rejection, ill health, deprivation, poverty; you name it. Some of us have this challenge, others are more fortunate. But it is certainly not easy.

Fwiw, I do not differentiate between different kinds of love, because that is an unnecessary complication of a simple enough emotion. As I see it, as long as my love for anyone else is focussed on meeting their emotional, spiritual or physical needs, whichever is appropriate to the relationship, then the expression of that love may differ, depending on whether it is a partner, child, friend or whoever, but the love itself is the same thing.

My love is about enabling others to grow spiritually. It can never be about me getting anything from someone else that they are not willing to give, and therefore cannot ever be abusive. And all love, which is sacrificial in this way, is of God and is part of his love.

When it turns instead into me and my needs, then it is no longer love, but something else. And as it is no longer love, it is no longer of God.

Hence no need for the (to me) rather artificial concept of agape. It is all love. But if others prefer other words, then that is fine and dandy.

And, so that the point does not get lost, when Christ's love is revealed in the world, then Christ himself is present, and that does a far better job of promoting our faith than any theology or even quoting Scripture.

As for seeking anything from God, I am long past that. All I do now is to pray "Thy will be done" and the Kyrie. And then do the next thing.

God forbid that anyone here who does not know what I am talking about, should ever have to come to understand. And those who do understand, God be with you.

Lisa0315 said:

I would give my life for a stranger now, and that is the power of the love of Christ.

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Giving your life for a cause you believe in is easy.

Staying alive for 50, 60, 70 or more years for a cause you believe in is less easy.

Peace be with you.

InquizitiveAtheist said:

Hello, all.
First of all I'd like to say a few things. I am an atheist now, but I was once agnostic and briefly held Chrisitian beliefs. I have questioned my own spirituality and existance extensively and I do not believe there is a God. However, that does not mean I am here to ridicule you.
As a scientist, and as a non-believer, I want to ask a few questions to a Christian. I do this to try and understand why you have come to the conclusions you have, and hopefully to gain insight to your way of life.
I do not want to mock your beliefs, nor try and change them; in return, I hope you will give me the same respect by not attempting to sway my own beliefs.
If anyone here regards themselves as rational, adult and comfortable with their own beliefs, please post in this thread or send me a Private Message to get my contact details.
I'm looking for people who are strong believers but also have thought about possibilities outside of Christianity. Hopefully we can learn a lot from one another!
Many thanks, Ben

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So, what's your question?

InquizitiveAtheist said:

Thank you both for your reply.

The first thing I want to get out of the way is not necessarily Christian related. Although I am an atheist, I think the part of your faith I find easiest to understand is a desire to believe in a higher power. Without being specific to Christianity, if at all possible, could you explain to me why you believe in a God or a higher power?

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First of all, belief in God is inherent in all human beings, including atheists. Why? Because God created all human beings and instilled them an awareness of His existence, regardless of their denial that He does exist.

Second, for those whom God has spiritually regenerated from the effects of sin, God, via His Spirit, takes up residence in the believers and fellowships with the believer, guiding and directing him by the light of His Word as the Spirit teaches him.

In either instance, though, nothing is contrived on the part of the creature, other than maybe false notions about God that often show up in false religion. God, instead, is the One who initiated belief in Him by creating human beings in God's image. And that image has remained, though tainted by sin, and will remain in all humans through eternity.

InquizitiveAtheist said:

My second set of questions, if anyone will be so good as to answer, revolve around why you felt the need to pick a religion to accompany your belief in God. Just because you believed in a higher power, why did you then choose Christianity as opposed to any other single-deity religion?

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I didn't pick "religion." God picked me, for whatever glorious reason He foreordained before He created anything.

Why do you believe in the bible? What I'm reallytrying to say is, is there a reason you felt you needed a religion or holy book to accompany your accepted higher power?

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I believe the Bible because of it's objective evaluation of the human condition, and because of its subjective influence for the good upon those whom God has chosen to live by its precepts. And despite the efforts of the most notorious of men to try and get rid of it, it endures by the sheer providence of God, Who has preserved it for the welfare of mankind, if it will only take time to read and study it in the context in which it was written.