Questions Evolutionists can't answer

[ivebeenshown]

Please. Misinterpretations like that make the Bible look silly. Aside from the obvious problems (like what did gulper eels eat, or what were spider webs for), there are so many other problems with the all-vegan world idea that I don't know where to start.

Simple math might be a good place. A praying mantis lays hundreds of eggs per season. If all of those live (because there is no death), then from 1 mantis pair in year 1, you'll have:

Year: Number of Mantids:
1 2
2 200
3 20000
4 2000000
5 2E+08
6 2E+10
7 2E+12
8 2E+14
9 2E+16
10 2E+18
11 2E+20
12 2E+22
13 2E+24
14 2E+26
15 2E+28
16 2E+30
17 2E+32
18 20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (just to show what kind of numbers we have)
19 2E+36
20 2E+38

So that means that by around year 12, mantids cover the earth to the depth of 1 mile, and by year 16, the writhing mass of mantids engulfs the moon, expanding at an ever increasing speed to engulf the sun the next year and the whole solar system (including the Kuiper belt) the year after that. The mantisplosion! Things go even faster for many other insect species, because the reproduce faster.

Silly? Of course it is. Things get silly when one mistakes a metaphor for a literal statement, like having pomegranate on one's face or livestock on one's chest.

Papias

Why would there be twenty years before the fall?

 

[Assyrian]

Why else do animals die?
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

Romans 5: 12 he writes "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned". Paul here shows that Adam's actions reached beyond himself and Eve; his sin caused death for all men.

Yup. It reached to all mankind because all mankind sinned too. No mention of death spreading to animals. In fact the way Paul tells us death spreads to all mankind could not apply to animals at all, ...death spread to all men because all sinned. Animals don't sin. How is death supposed to spread to them?

It seems clear that without sin death wouldnt have been introduced in to the world. All death not just human death

Of course the bible speaks of different kinds of death. The type of death described in Rom 5:12 does not affect animals who do not sin, and the death threatened in Gen 2:17 was only to those who broke God's command. So where do you get the idea that animal mortality is the result of the fall? The bible never says that.

On the 6th day before the fall
Gen 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. So evidently Gods creation was all very good. So are you saying God accepts death as a "very good."

Technically, God only called Creation 'very good' after he created mankind, before that he called everything 'good'. So lets see how God relates to his creation, his role in providence.

Job 38:41 Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?
Psalm 104:21 The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God.
Incidentally these two verses come from creation accounts, but even if they didn't, are you saying God is not being good when he provides prey for you lions and ravens?

Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma.
If death is not part of a good creation, how can the death of sheep and cattle being sacrificed be a pleasing aroma to God?

Psalm 147:7 Sing to the LORD with thanksgiving; make melody to our God on the lyre!
8 He covers the heavens with clouds; he prepares rain for the earth; he makes grass grow on the hills.
9 He gives to the beasts their food, and to the young ravens that cry.
10 His delight is not in the strength of the horse, nor his pleasure in the legs of a man,
11 but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love.
12 Praise the LORD, O Jerusalem! Praise your God, O Zion!
We are to sing to the Lord with thanksgiving, to praise him, because he provides carrion for hungry young ravens. Yet Creationist just keep complaining how terrible it all is.

When it comes to people God's attitude is different.
Ezek 33:11 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
It is not good when the wicked die in sin. The death of those who love the Lord, on the other hand, is good.

But the greatest and most significant death in the history of the universe did please God.

Isaiah 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

If you read your bible, you will know that Christ's death was God's purpose from before the foundation of the world. When God created flesh mortal, subject to death, it was so in the fullness of time Christ could share in our mortality and through his death redeem a people for himself, his bride. I would call that very good.

Are you inferring that God created the world perfectly to include death and call it very Good

No, God created a world that was very good, not perfect. The perfect is yet to come. God's plan from the beginning has been to bring the world and mankind to perfection through the death and resurrection of his son. In the meantime, physical mortality is part of the material world God created and called very good.

If you accept that from God you have a reason to be disappointed in him a reason to be depressed

I don't know about that. The biblical approach is to praise God for the wonder and beauty of his creation we see around us. Nothing depressing about that, and we rejoice that God's new creation is going to be even better. Creationists do not see the beauty of God's creation, but surround themselves with a world that in their imagination is cursed, corrupt and foul. Now that is depressing

Go on now and say something about apple cores and I will tell you why Cane and Able had a blue with each other

Apple cores... apple cores... what do I say about apple cores...
Oh yes. They turn brown when exposed to air.
You think that didn't happen before the fall?

 

[Mallon]

How is that relevant to
Romans 5: 12 he writes "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned".

Tree or no tree, Sin brought death in to the world according to the bible

You didn't answer the question. What was the purpose of the Tree of Life if not to keep people from physical death?

 

[Monarchist]

Yup. It reached to all mankind because all mankind sinned too. No mention of death spreading to animals. In fact the way Paul tells us death spreads to all mankind could not apply to animals at all, ...death spread to all men because all sinned. Animals don't sin. How is death supposed to spread to them?


Of course the bible speaks of different kinds of death. The type of death described in Rom 5:12 does not affect animals who do not sin, and the death threatened in Gen 2:17 was only to those who broke God's command. So where do you get the idea that animal mortality is the result of the fall? The bible never says that.

Technically, God only called Creation 'very good' after he created mankind, before that he called everything 'good'. So lets see how God relates to his creation, his role in providence.

Job 38:41 Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?
Psalm 104:21 The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God.
Incidentally these two verses come from creation accounts, but even if they didn't, are you saying God is not being good when he provides prey for you lions and ravens?

Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma.
If death is not part of a good creation, how can the death of sheep and cattle being sacrificed be a pleasing aroma to God?

Psalm 147:7 Sing to the LORD with thanksgiving; make melody to our God on the lyre!
8 He covers the heavens with clouds; he prepares rain for the earth; he makes grass grow on the hills.
9 He gives to the beasts their food, and to the young ravens that cry.
10 His delight is not in the strength of the horse, nor his pleasure in the legs of a man,
11 but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love.
12 Praise the LORD, O Jerusalem! Praise your God, O Zion!
We are to sing to the Lord with thanksgiving, to praise him, because he provides carrion for hungry young ravens. Yet Creationist just keep complaining how terrible it all is.

When it comes to people God's attitude is different.
Ezek 33:11 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
It is not good when the wicked die in sin. The death of those who love the Lord, on the other hand, is good.

But the greatest and most significant death in the history of the universe did please God.

Isaiah 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

If you read your bible, you will know that Christ's death was God's purpose from before the foundation of the world. When God created flesh mortal, subject to death, it was so in the fullness of time Christ could share in our mortality and through his death redeem a people for himself, his bride. I would call that very good.

No, God created a world that was very good, not perfect. The perfect is yet to come. God's plan from the beginning has been to bring the world and mankind to perfection through the death and resurrection of his son. In the meantime, physical mortality is part of the material world God created and called very good.

I don't know about that. The biblical approach is to praise God for the wonder and beauty of his creation we see around us. Nothing depressing about that, and we rejoice that God's new creation is going to be even better. Creationists do not see the beauty of God's creation, but surround themselves with a world that in their imagination is cursed, corrupt and foul. Now that is depressing

Apple cores... apple cores... what do I say about apple cores...
Oh yes. They turn brown when exposed to air.
You think that didn't happen before the fall?

Gen 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food "; and it was so.

Kinda sorta disagrees with you re animals eating each other
I dont see what you see
Death is not "very good" not even "a little good", its actually "worse than bad" even "worse than really bad"
I just cant see how you can be so arrogant in your position, so unwavering or righteous
I am not saying you are wrong, I just dont see how you can be so right without evidence

Apples are not alive

 

[Monarchist]

You didn't answer the question. What was the purpose of the Tree of Life if not to keep people from physical death?

Wow, you are very perceptive
I didnt answer your question

 

[Mallon]

Wow, you are very perceptive
I didnt answer your question

Can you?

 

[dies-l]

Wow, you are very perceptive
I didnt answer your question

I wonder why. It was a good question, and very relevant to the discussion.

 

[Assyrian]

Gen 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food "; and it was so.

Kinda sorta disagrees with you re animals eating each other

Not my animals eating each other, God’s animals eating each other. If you claim it is bad for animals to eat each other, then God shouldn’t be providing prey for hungry ravens, as the bible says he does. This Creationist argument against evolution, that death and predation is cannot be part of a good creation, is based on sentimentality not a biblical understanding of nature. It might be a good argument for a Buddhist to use, but hardly for a Christian.

Gen 1:30 is another issue. On the face of it, it seem to contradict other biblical creation accounts where God is described providing prey for young ravens and lions. But only on the face of it. Gen 1:30 does not say animals were all herbivores, or even command the animals only to eat plants. Instead it describes plants as God’s provision for birds and animals. Does it contradict Gen 1:30 if the young ravens get their food through rabbits that have been fattened up on grass and herbs?

I dont see what you see
Death is not "very good" not even "a little good", its actually "worse than bad" even "worse than really bad"
I just cant see how you can be so arrogant in your position, so unwavering or righteous
I am not saying you are wrong, I just dont see how you can be so right without evidence

I used to be a Creationist but I went back to the bible to search out what it actually say, and how we should interpret it. So I know the creationist arguments and the flaws in them. Have I got it all right now? Most likely not, but I am happy to argue what I do understand until someone comes along with a more convincing way to understand God’s word.

As for death being ‘worse than bad’, you never addressed the passages of scripture I pointed out to you. I don’t think Creationists are all that convinced with the argument themselves. They bring it up arguing against evolution, but how many of these Creationists are vegetarians?

Apples are not alive

Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies… John 12:24

 

[granpa]

Job 38:39-41 (21st Century King James Version)

(would) thou hunt the prey (deer) for the lion, or fill the appetite of the young lions,
when they crouch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

Who (would) provideth for the raven his food, when his young ones cry unto God, and wander for lack of meat?

Its a question. The answer is of course no.

The humans and animals in the Garden of Eden, but not necessarily the whole earth, were vegetarians.

 

[granpa]

I would also add that the eating of meat is one possible explanation for
the eating from 'tree (the) knowing good and evil' that
got them kicked out of the garden of Eden.

 

[laconicstudent]

The humans and animals in the Garden of Eden, but not necessarily the whole earth, were vegetarians.

*examines the Canis lupus skull and raises eyebrow skeptically*

 

[granpa]

The humans and animals in the Garden of Eden, but not necessarily the whole earth, were vegetarians.

*examines the Canis lupus skull and raises eyebrow skeptically*

I have no idea what point you could possibly be making.

A. Dogs are omnivores and can go without meat if they have to.
B. Dogs might not have been in the garden of Eden



I have personally seen dogs happily eat things that you wouldnt easily believe a dog would eat at all.

 

[Mallon]

*examines the Canis lupus skull and raises eyebrow skeptically*

Clearly, those teeth were made to crush watermelons. Just like this guy:

 

[Papias]

Ive been wrote:

Why would there be twenty years before the fall?

So are you saying that God designed a world he knew couldn't work for more than a matter of months, on purpose? And would you call that a good design?

Papias

 

[Assyrian]

I would also add that the eating of meat is one possible explanation for
the eating from 'tree (the) knowing good and evil' that
got them kicked out of the garden of Eden.

What sort of tree did that grow on?

That wasn't a snake in a fruit tree
That was a hambush.

 

[granpa]

A "I dont believe that" would have been entirely satisfactory.

There was really no call for sarcasm.

 

[laconicstudent]

I have no idea what point you could possibly be making.

A. Dogs

Well, I was referring to wolves.....

But since that wasn't clear enough, meet Carcharodon carcharias.

 

[granpa]

dogs (Canis lupus familiaris) and wolves (Canis lupus) interbreed.

Gray wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the species Canis lupus, which includes both never-domesticated wolf subspecies and the domesticated Canis lupus dingo and Canis lupus familiaris. For other uses, see Wolf (disambiguation).

Though I readily admit that there is a big difference between domesticated and nondomesticated dogs.

I would assume that only domesticated varieties were allowed in the garden of Eden
I doubt that sharks were allowed in the Garden either

 

[laconicstudent]

I would assume that only domesticated varieties were allowed in the garden of Eden

...................................................................................

What?

 

[Greg1234]

...................................................................................

What?

Or, there is type and manner of entities present before the slowing of vibration, then the eventual fall of man with the other kingdoms, and the substrate which was fed upon before that. Contrary to popular belief, virtual particles don't "pop out of nothing". Then there is what is termed as the "hardening of flesh" and the bodies as a reflection of the mind therein, emerging.