Questions about the Nicene Creed and some Christian forum rules about beliefs...?

klutedavid · May 29, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
We are not allowed here on Christian forums to have or hold or express any beliefs that would go against the Nicene Creed, so, I have a few questions about it...?

I nearly agree with all of it, and I actually do think I do agree with all of it, and the parts I have questions about I bolded and commented on, and would like some clarification on... As it has been said that some of my beliefs may go against it, and I'm trying to figure out if that is really true or not...?

The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)

John 17:1-5-

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I have glorified thee on the earth, (or in and among the creation)...? In what way did he (Jesus) glorify him (The Father) on or in the earth...? Did he glorify him (The Father) "above" himself...? or not...?

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (with you) "BEFORE the world was"...?

Does this mean before the Creation, and perhaps, "after" creation (and stepping down into that/the creation) he lost some of that "former glory" with the Father that he (Jesus) had with him (the Father) "before the world (or creation) was"...? Or not...?

"In the beginning" first words in the Bible, can mean in Hebrew also, "Behold, a cross"... A cross means sacrifice of some sort, could that have been some of his (Christ's) "former glory" perhaps...? Or not...?

Oh, and, True God of the True God, yes, I believe that...

of one "essence" with the Father (John 10:30)

John 10:30- "I and the Father are One"

What does "one essence" mean from this...? Does this have to mean "in every way the same", or in every way "equal", or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Oh, and also in the Christian forum rules is this:

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

What does it mean to deny the full eternal deity of Jesus Christ...?

Does that mean you can never, ever suggest or believe that he (Son of God, God the Son) was in any way shape or form was never not equal to the Father in any and every way, shape, or form, at any time, or for any period of time...? or not...?

Much thanks,

God Bless!

Anyone who disagrees with the Nicene Creed will be tied to a stake and burned.

What a difficult topic to discuss, the Nicene Creed, a simple summary of Christian doctrine. The creed was formulated to combat heresy, an attempt at a uniformity of doctrine across all the churches. I would have worded the creed differently from that given, that format the church fathers chose to present.

Neogaia777 · May 29, 2018

A_Thinker said:
But from a purely intrinsic standpoint, having the same natural essence and being.

Just like all men are created equal, despite the fact that some may be princes ... and some may be paupers ...

They have the same "heart", they share the same feelings that were expressed through the Son as our God... To do this he (the Son) could not be 100% fully omniscient, or it would not have been possible... The Father couldn't do this because of this, but had to do it though the Son... It is the Father's "past" feelings and heart... What past, IDK...? Another creation perhaps, IDK...? And don't think we can know (yet) (not in this life)...

The same heart, the same feelings, and same stance on issues, like, sin... But, we are in the future now, and now Christ is just like the Father he spoke of... What that means, if they are "different" IDK...? I do know the OC and the OT, were paving the way for the new, and we are now in the new, and are dealing with a now perhaps totally different Christ, or God over us, one who is now like his Father was from the very beginning now... And that could change the game a bit, IDK...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · May 29, 2018

klutedavid said:
Anyone who disagrees with the Nicene Creed will be tied to a stake and burned.

What a difficult topic to discuss, the Nicene Creed, a simple summary of Christian doctrine. The creed was formulated to combat heresy, an attempt at a uniformity of doctrine across all the churches. I would have worded the creed differently from that given, that format the church fathers chose to present.

They didn't know some things that we know now, like about the universe for example, or the creation, how "big" it and God really is, about science and God, ect...

If they had, they might have written it much differently...

God Bless!

klutedavid · May 29, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Many will say and admit that Jesus the man, was not completely equal to God the Father as a man, and while that is technically rejecting the full deity of Christ, it is accepted, and considered acceptable...

So, why is it such a stretch to say that he was not always completely equal to God the Father, as a God, as our God in the OT either...? That is not considered acceptable and will get you in trouble...? Why is that...?

God Bless!

I believe that the God of the Old Testament (YHWH) was in fact, the preincarnate Christ. According to the visions of YHWH that the prophets received, the YHWH had the appearance of a man!

The fellow walking in the garden of Eden and the fellow who spoke to Adam in the garden. Was not God the Father but the preincarnate Christ, the Word (YHWH), who had the appearance of a man in the visions of the prophets.

The visions are not an added extra to add color to the narration. The visions help us to identify who YHWH really is.

klutedavid · May 29, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
They didn't know some things that we know now, like about the universe for example, or the creation, how "big" it and God really is, about science and God, ect...

If they had, they might have written it much differently...

God Bless!

Perhaps we should rewrite the creed!

Kaon · May 29, 2018

A_Thinker said:
Who said this ?

I don't that the Creed speaks to positional equality ...

No I was being facetious. It was a modification of a quote from Animal Farm.

A_Thinker · May 29, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
They have the same "heart", they share the same feelings that were expressed through the Son as our God... To do this he (the Son) could not be 100% fully omniscient, or it would not have been possible... The Father couldn't do this because of this, but had to do it though the Son... It is the Father's "past" feelings and heart... What past, IDK...? Another creation perhaps, IDK...? And don't think we can know (yet) (not in this life)...

I have more heartburn with the omni-terms (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence) ... than with the relations of the Son to the Father. I don't know how much real evidence we have for the omni-terms. Though They/God may be so far above us ... that the omni-terms seem to make sense.

I envision the Godhead as a family ... all working together toward the same goals ... and all, collectively and separately, representing the God level of being.

Neogaia777 · May 29, 2018

A_Thinker said:
I have more heartburn with the omni-terms (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence) ... than with the relations of the Son to the Father. I don't know how much real evidence we have for the omni-terms. Though They/God may be so far above us ... that the omni-terms seem to make sense.

I envision the Godhead as a family ... all working together toward the same goals ... and all, collectively and separately, representing the God level of being.

Forget about omnipresent and omnipotent for now, for they (The Father and the Son) are and have always been equal in that respect...

But omniscience or all knowing, or knowing absolutely all, from the very beginning, is another matter... That was exclusive the God the Father, or God the Father, Jesus speaks of... To him, there is no "choice" for anyone, only the "illusion of choice"... For we are all, (all of us "not the Father") (Jesus speaks of) including even himself, God the Son, or God in the OT (and in the NT also)

Anyway, to "all of us not the Father", their is no choice for anyone... But we are operating on a pre-programmed "program" that he (The Father) started or initiated, or set-off, from the very beginning... That he (God the Father) could "predict", all of fully, even the very end from the very beginning, of... How everything would turn out, and be, where everyone would be (at) and when, "all of it"... He knows the end of it all from the very beginning, and everything, EVERYTHING "in between" also...

By and according to things like in this thread: Are we all the result of (prior) conditioning or programming...?

We all are running a program by the Father, and that only the Father alone started out knowing (it) (all of it) (from the very beginning), including our only begotten, or chosen to be our God (Christ/YHWH) by him (the Father)...

He's controlling and manipulating it all, (or not that he is controlling and manipulating it,currently or during it) but that he had no need to interfere "in between" so as to control or manipulate it all, "during it" but set it all off, or in motion, and predestined it all according to his pre-programmed, "program" started out, or "initiated" from it's, or the, very beginning...

To it's ending...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · May 29, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Forget about omnipresent and omnipotent for now, for they (The Father and the Son) are and have always been equal in that respect...

But omniscience or all knowing, or knowing absolutely all, from the very beginning, is another matter... That was exclusive the God the Father, or God the Father, Jesus speaks of... To him, there is no "choice" for anyone, only the "illusion of choice"... For we are all, (all of us "not the Father") (Jesus speaks of) including even himself, God the Son, or God in the OT (and in the NT also)

Anyway, to "all of us not the Father", their is no choice for anyone... But we are operating on a pre-programmed "program" that he (The Father) started or initiated, or set-off, from the very beginning... That he (God the Father) could "predict", all of fully, even the very end from the very beginning, of... How everything would turn out, and be, where everyone would be (at) and when, "all of it"... He knows the end of it all from the very beginning, and everything, EVERYTHING "in between" also...

By and according to things like in this thread: Are we all the result of (prior) conditioning or programming...?

We all are running a program by the Father, and that only the Father alone started out knowing (it) (all of it) (from the very beginning), including our only begotten, or chosen to be our God (Christ/YHWH) by him (the Father)...

He's controlling and manipulating it all, (or not that he is controlling and manipulating it,currently or during it) but that he had no need to interfere "in between" so as to control or manipulate it all, "during it" but set it all off, or in motion, and predestined it all according to his pre-programmed, "program" started out, or "initiated" from it's, or the, very beginning...

To it's ending...

God Bless!

It was all made for and designed by God (the Father) around God the Son... And the "fate" of it all, (this creation) was all very heavily, and was made to greatly dependent upon, a "critical choice" he (God the Son) made and would make... And he made that choice in the end didn't he...? (and the Father knew all about it, from the very beginning)...

And he made the choice that would save us and "it" all... In the end anyway, by or before the end of it all anyway...

God Bless!

SkyWriting · May 29, 2018

A_Thinker said:
Who said this ?

I don't that the Creed speaks to positional equality ...

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others ...
A proclamation by the pigs who control the government in the novel Animal Farm, by George Orwell.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 2, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I believe that Jesus, both in his existence as a man, and as our God in the OT, may not have been completely equal to the Father God in every way, in his existence as a man and as a, or our God in the OT... (nearly, but not completely)...

I believe he was completely equal to the Father in every way, before creation began, and after he was crucified, but not the time in between...

For this belief, I do not know where I belong...? For this belief I have been hated and despised and rejected and have been called a heretic, and accused of great blasphemy, and of not even being a Christian or Christ follower because of this... (And of breaking Christian forum rules also)... Of "rejecting the full deity of Christ", and not thinking Jesus is God because of this...

I do not think that is fair... I do believe in Jesus as God and as our God, I just believe that there were, or used to be some "differences" between him (Jesus as man and as God, our God) and the true Father, or the Father Christ speaks of in the scriptures...

For this I have been despised and rejected, and accused of great blasphemy and labeled a heretic, and am told I am not even a Christian...

How is that fair...?

This belief is the truth, but many will deny it and reject it, cause it challenges nearly everything that, IMO, they have either falsely believed, or have not cared to think about or consider, for so very long...

But it's the truth, I swear... It is what the scriptures, especially the NT teaches... So, truth is not allowed within Christian circles then I guess... To controversial...

And, am I really going against the Nicene Creed, or against Christian beliefs because of this...? Cause I don't believe I am, and I think this is all very unfair and flat out wrong...

I'm not allowed to talk about this on here, or I could get banned, and I think that is very wrong, unjust and unfair...

God Bless!

When Jesus said, "...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24), He was claiming to be the "I AM" from Exodus 3. Jesus is God (the Great "I AM"). Jesus was always God and He never stopped being God at any point in time. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever (See Hebrews 13:8).

While Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience (i.e. to know all things), Jesus had power as God (During His Earthly ministry):

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).

Only God can do such things.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

Side Note:

Yes, I am aware Jesus did things by the power of God the Father and the Holy Spirit, but Jesus also had power of His own during His Earthly ministry, too.

Neogaia777 · Jun 3, 2018

Jason0047 said:
When Jesus said, "...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24), He was claiming to be the "I AM" from Exodus 3. Jesus is God (the Great "I AM"). Jesus was always God and He never stopped being God at any point in time. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever (See Hebrews 13:8).

While Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience (i.e. to know all things), Jesus had power as God (During His Earthly ministry):

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).

Only God can do such things.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

Side Note:

Yes, I am aware Jesus did things by the power of God the Father and the Holy Spirit, but Jesus also had power of His own during His Earthly ministry, too.

I believe Jesus is God...

There are alternate translations of the great "I AM", some are, "I was, I am, and I will (prove to) be" Past, present, and future... Means "time" is involved for our God... Also, "I will be (or become) what I will be (or become)"... Or "I will (prove to) be, what I will (prove to) be"... Or "I cause to become, that which I cause to become"... Or "I am that (and what) I am"... Which is "God" of course, our God, or will be like the Father Jesus speaks of, but in time...

Then considering that Moses "heard" that, it could not have been the Father God that Jesus speaks of... But was in fact Jesus that he heard it from when he heard that...

Who is the Father God Jesus spoke of...?

YHWH and Jesus were nearly omniscient, but not completely... The one that is, and always has been, is the Father Jesus spoke of... He is the only one that always has been, that we "have never seen nor heard from at any time" (what Jesus says about him)...

Jesus/YHWH was/is to be "Like him" but in "time"... Mainly, that happened after, and at, the cross, but not before, except at the beginning of creation before creation was maybe, but not after creation, or before the cross...

And if any of you cannot see that you are blind...

No "completely objective neutral point of view" can see it any other way... But many of you are to "indoctrinated" or to "brainwashed", to truly see it that way... or your afraid... or just incredibly stubborn and hard-hearted and/or arrogant...

God Bless!

Bible Highlighter · Jun 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I believe Jesus is God...

There are alternate translations of the great "I AM", some are, "I was, I am, and I will (prove to) be" Past, present, and future... Means "time" is involved for our God... Also, "I will be (or become) what I will be (or become)"... Or "I will (prove to) be, what I will (prove to) be"... Or "I cause to become, that which I cause to become"... Or "I am that (and what) I am"... Which is "God" of course, our God, or will be like the Father Jesus speaks of, but in time...

Then considering that Moses "heard" that, it could not have been the Father God that Jesus speaks of... But was in fact Jesus that he heard it from when he heard that...

Who is the Father God Jesus spoke of...?

YHWH and Jesus were nearly omniscient, but not completely... The one that is, and always has been, is the Father Jesus spoke of... He is the only one that always has been, that we "have never seen nor heard from at any time" (what Jesus says about him)...

Jesus/YHWH was/is to be "Like him" but in "time"... Mainly, that happened after, and at, the cross, but not before, except at the beginning of creation before creation was maybe, but not after creation, or before the cross...

And if any of you cannot see that you are blind...

No "completely objective neutral point of view" can see it any other way... But many of you are to "indoctrinated" or to "brainwashed", to truly see it that way... or your afraid... or just incredibly stubborn and hard-hearted and/or arrogant...

God Bless!

So you don't believe Jesus was always God? That sometimes He was God and other times He was not God? Are you saying that we are all blind, hard hearted, and arrogant because we do not see the same truth as you do in the fact that Jesus is not being eternally God?

Mormons believe Jesus inherited powers of godhood and divinity from His Father. Meaning, Jesus was not always God (according to them). Is that what what you are saying? I sure hope not.

Neogaia777 · Jun 3, 2018

Jason0047 said:
So you don't believe Jesus was always God? That sometimes He was God and other times He was not God? Are you saying that we are all blind, hard hearted, and arrogant because we do not see the same truth as you do in the fact that Jesus is not being eternally God?

Mormons believe Jesus inherited powers of godhood and divinity from His Father. Meaning, Jesus was not always God (according to them). Is that what what you are saying? I sure hope not.

No, Jesus is and has always been our God, by God the Father, from the beginning, the only begotten God, by God the Father...

Just that the Father, that no one has ever seen or heard from except our God, was, or used to be, just "slightly lesser" than him, but no less of being our God though, for he is our God that we can see and hear, and/for there is no other God that we can see or hear or behold at all besides him, the God the Son, our God...

He is the only God we know of, and we can only possibly even know our God the Father only through and by him, as our God, and there is no other way, other than that...

I believe he stepped into time with us (Jesus as our God, who is also YHWH) to be a part of time with us and experience time with us, after creation, after they (God the Father, God the Son (Him our God) and God the Holy Spirit) created it...

It was necessary for God the Son to lose something, like a little bit of his omniscience, (or former glory) in order For God the Father (and them) (the triune God), to show us him/them and his/their heart... It was necessary for him (our God) to lose a little bit of that, to do that, or it would not have been possible to do that, (them to show us them)...

Full omniscience (or being a being with 100% full complete omniscience) would have "restricted" and prevented him/them from doing that (showing us them/God and their heart)... It took, and would take one, just "slightly less" (Christ as our God) to do that, or it would not have been possible, without them, or one or any of them, becoming just "slightly less"... For them trying to show us them, with 100% omniscience, they would have had to have been "acting" (like an actor) or "pretending", to "not know" things that they already knew (or IOW's they would have had to be being deceptive) or they (any one of them, trying to show us them)... It is just is not possible with 100% full omniscience, without basically lying or being deceptive in some way... Which they just do not ever do...

Our God (YHWH/Christ) had to step down into time with us and creation with us and lose or forsake some of his former omniscience, (or former glory) and be and become a part of time with us to show us them (God) and their heart and their being and person, and this one is our God... Otherwise it cannot and could not have been done... They chose the Son for this task, and he became "God with us", after creation...

Now they (the three) were always with each other, but took "turns" in being the head of the Godhead... In the OT and immediately after creation and up to the crucifiction, it was God the Son at the head as our God, and is the only one we know of as God, and is the one we have to know in order to know at all, the other two, at all... Cause the Son showed, and shows us God, cause he is our God...

He is the only God we can see and hear, which makes him our God, or God with us, and is the only way to know anything about the other two, when you have the full revelation of the Son as our God, or come to know him fully as God, then you will know the other two at that time, for there is no other way to know them...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jun 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
No, Jesus is and has always been our God, by God the Father, from the beginning, the only begotten God, by God the Father...

Just that the Father, that no one has ever seen or heard from except our God, was, or used to be, just "slightly lesser" than him, but no less of being our God though, for he is our God that we can see and hear, and/for there is no other God that we can see or hear or behold at all besides him, the God the Son, our God...

He is the only God we know of, and we can only possibly even know our God the Father only through and by him, as our God, and there is no other way, other than that...

I believe he stepped into time with us (Jesus as our God, who is also YHWH) to be a part of time with us and experience time with us, after creation, after they (God the Father, God the Son (Him our God) and God the Holy Spirit) created it...

It was necessary for God the Son to lose something, like a little bit of his omniscience, (or former glory) in order For God the Father (and them) (the triune God), to show us him/them and his/their heart... It was necessary for him (our God) to lose a little bit of that, to do that, or it would not have been possible to do that, (them to show us them)...

Full omniscience (or being a being with 100% full complete omniscience) would have "restricted" and prevented him/them from doing that (showing us them/God and their heart)... It took, and would take one, just "slightly less" (Christ as our God) to do that, or it would not have been possible, without them, or one or any of them, becoming just "slightly less"... For them trying to show us them, with 100% omniscience, they would have had to have been "acting" (like an actor) or "pretending", to "not know" things that they already knew (or IOW's they would have had to be being deceptive) or they (any one of them, trying to show us them)... It is just is not possible with 100% full omniscience, without basically lying or being deceptive in some way... Which they just do not ever do...

Our God (YHWH/Christ) had to step down into time with us and creation with us and lose or forsake some of his former omniscience, (or former glory) and be and become a part of time with us to show us them (God) and their heart and their being and person, and this one is our God... Otherwise it cannot and could not have been done... They chose the Son for this task, and he became "God with us", after creation...

Now they (the three) were always with each other, but took "turns" in being the head of the Godhead... In the OT and immediately after creation and up to the crucifiction, it was God the Son at the head as our God, and is the only one we know of as God, and is the one we have to know in order to know at all, the other two, at all... Cause the Son showed, and shows us God, cause he is our God...

He is the only God we can see and hear, which makes him our God, or God with us, and is the only way to know anything about the other two, when you have the full revelation of the Son as our God, or come to know him fully as God, then you will know the other two at that time, for there is no other way to know them...

God Bless!

The Son is the key, our key to knowing any of them, or God at all, which makes him our God (also)...

It was necessary for him to become, kinda like one of us, (exist in time, as a part of time, with us, all that) in order for him/them to not only show us, "us", but them (God) as well... So we could both know God and know ourselves at the same time... All through them, and all through God the Son, or Son of God, as God... for there was no other way...

The Son was chosen for this task of being "God with us" or to become "The God with us" to show us, both us, and them... But, he has to lose a little bit of his glory, or sacrifice a little bit of his former glory, that he had with the other two, before the beginning, to do that (task) (of showing us both them and us)...

I hope this is making sense...?

Can you not see it/this/that...? Or am I seeming a bit confusing...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jun 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
No, Jesus is and has always been our God, by God the Father, from the beginning, the only begotten God, by God the Father...

Just that the Father, that no one has ever seen or heard from except our God, was, or used to be, just "slightly lesser" than him, but no less of being our God though, for he is our God that we can see and hear, and/for there is no other God that we can see or hear or behold at all besides him, the God the Son, our God...

He is the only God we know of, and we can only possibly even know our God the Father only through and by him, as our God, and there is no other way, other than that...

I believe he stepped into time with us (Jesus as our God, who is also YHWH) to be a part of time with us and experience time with us, after creation, after they (God the Father, God the Son (Him our God) and God the Holy Spirit) created it...

It was necessary for God the Son to lose something, like a little bit of his omniscience, (or former glory) in order For God the Father (and them) (the triune God), to show us him/them and his/their heart... It was necessary for him (our God) to lose a little bit of that, to do that, or it would not have been possible to do that, (them to show us them)...

Full omniscience (or being a being with 100% full complete omniscience) would have "restricted" and prevented him/them from doing that (showing us them/God and their heart)... It took, and would take one, just "slightly less" (Christ as our God) to do that, or it would not have been possible, without them, or one or any of them, becoming just "slightly less"... For them trying to show us them, with 100% omniscience, they would have had to have been "acting" (like an actor) or "pretending", to "not know" things that they already knew (or IOW's they would have had to be being deceptive) or they (any one of them, trying to show us them)... It is just is not possible with 100% full omniscience, without basically lying or being deceptive in some way... Which they just do not ever do...

Our God (YHWH/Christ) had to step down into time with us and creation with us and lose or forsake some of his former omniscience, (or former glory) and be and become a part of time with us to show us them (God) and their heart and their being and person, and this one is our God... Otherwise it cannot and could not have been done... They chose the Son for this task, and he became "God with us", after creation...

Now they (the three) were always with each other, but took "turns" in being the head of the Godhead... In the OT and immediately after creation and up to the crucifiction, it was God the Son at the head as our God, and is the only one we know of as God, and is the one we have to know in order to know at all, the other two, at all... Cause the Son showed, and shows us God, cause he is our God...

He is the only God we can see and hear, which makes him our God, or God with us, and is the only way to know anything about the other two, when you have the full revelation of the Son as our God, or come to know him fully as God, then you will know the other two at that time, for there is no other way to know them...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:
The Son is the key, our key to knowing any of them, or God at all, which makes him our God (also)...

It was necessary for him to become, kinda like one of us, (exist in time, as a part of time, with us, all that) in order for him/them to not only show us, "us", but them (God) as well... So we could both know God and know ourselves at the same time... All through them, and all through God the Son, or Son of God, as God... for there was no other way...

The Son was chosen for this task of being "God with us" or to become "The God with us" to show us, both us, and them... But, he has to lose a little bit of his glory, or sacrifice a little bit of his former glory, that he had with the other two, before the beginning, to do that (task) (of showing us both them and us)...

I hope this is making sense...?

Can you not see it/this/that...? Or am I seeming a bit confusing...?

God Bless!

The men that wrote about God (the Son, the chosen one) the men that wrote about God for us, was, deep down a "reflection" of what was in them, and also in us also, deep down... Which "reflection" is in us, and "is us" also...

Which is "God with us" (as like one of us) and "in us" also... But is also fully God at the same time, and is the key to knowing God, (any one of them) through the Son as God, and as our God, which is "with us" and "in us" (all) also...

Knowing God is the key to knowing ourselves... And the key to knowing God is in us also... When we know as God with us, as being like one of us, we will know God and ourselves...

Look, if you want to know God, and be closer to and with God then any of you/us ever have/has been, you should try to understand and comprehend what I am saying... If you can that is...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jun 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
The men that wrote about God (the Son, the chosen one) the men that wrote about God for us, was, deep down a "reflection" of what was in them, and also in us also, deep down... Which "reflection" is in us, and "is us" also...

Which is "God with us" (as like one of us) and "in us" also... But is also fully God at the same time, and is the key to knowing God, (any one of them) through the Son as God, and as our God, which is "with us" and "in us" (all) also...

Knowing God is the key to knowing ourselves... And the key to knowing God is in us also... When we know as God with us, as being like one of us, we will know God and ourselves...

Look, if you want to know God, and be closer to and with God then any of you/us ever have/has been, you should try to understand and comprehend what I am saying... If you can that is...

God Bless!

But you have to realize that that God, was not always fully omniscient (but is now)... He had to become like one of us, even as a God and our God, to show us all and any of this, for it was necessary in order to do this/that (show us ourselves and him and them)...

I am only doing this, so that many of you can be closer to God and know God, not in such a "distant" way, but in a way that is much, much closer than any of you probably ever have been with him...

God Bless!

Grip Docility · Jun 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I believe that Jesus, both in his existence as a man, and as our God in the OT, may not have been completely equal to the Father God in every way, in his existence as a man and as a, or our God in the OT... (nearly, but not completely)...

I believe he was completely equal to the Father in every way, before creation began, and after he was crucified, but not the time in between...

For this belief, I do not know where I belong...? For this belief I have been hated and despised and rejected and have been called a heretic, and accused of great blasphemy, and of not even being a Christian or Christ follower because of this... (And of breaking Christian forum rules also)... Of "rejecting the full deity of Christ", and not thinking Jesus is God because of this...

I do not think that is fair... I do believe in Jesus as God and as our God, I just believe that there were, or used to be some "differences" between him (Jesus as man and as God, our God) and the true Father, or the Father Christ speaks of in the scriptures...

For this I have been despised and rejected, and accused of great blasphemy and labeled a heretic, and am told I am not even a Christian...

How is that fair...?

This belief is the truth, but many will deny it and reject it, cause it challenges nearly everything that, IMO, they have either falsely believed, or have not cared to think about or consider, for so very long...

But it's the truth, I swear... It is what the scriptures, especially the NT teaches... So, truth is not allowed within Christian circles then I guess... To controversial...

And, am I really going against the Nicene Creed, or against Christian beliefs because of this...? Cause I don't believe I am, and I think this is all very unfair and flat out wrong...

I'm not allowed to talk about this on here, or I could get banned, and I think that is very wrong, unjust and unfair...

God Bless!

I say this quite a bit, but Philippians 2 shows a willingness on the Son’s part to reduce Himself, though in doing so, he was still deemed equal with the Father.

An undeniable Scriptural quote that seems to show ability willingly reduced is found here;

Matthew 24:36

This is repeatedly swept under the carpet by gate keepers that know the issues but fear the result of opening the discussion.

Grip Docility · Jun 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
But you have to realize that that God, was not always fully omniscient (but is now)... He had to become like one of us, even as a God and our God, to show us all and any of this, for it was necessary in order to do this/that (show us ourselves and him and them)...

I am only doing this, so that many of you can be closer to God and know God, not in such a "distant" way, but in a way that is much, much closer than any of you probably ever have been with him...

God Bless!

I will come clean.

The Father in the passage of Matthew 24:36 is FULLY omnicient, while the Son is not.

No honest theologian can deny this.

To be horribly blunt, Reformers retain the gate keys of Protestant doctrine and have become an antiquated group of self protecting arguments.

Once it’s recognized that God has a mechanism to be FULLY Omnicient and Simultaneously Limited, as Matthew 24:36 says, Reform Based Predestination is obliterated.

Does God have a mechanism to do this?

He indeed does. It would take 3 places to be held.

1: Outside Of time - Reform can’t deny this.
2: Inside Of time and willingly bound to time. (Matthew 24:36) proofs this.
3: A bridge between the two (Intercessor)

Enter;

Father, Son and Holy Spirit

The Trinity can’t be contested and Matthew 24:36 can’t be contested.

This can’t be stopped.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
No, Jesus is and has always been our God, by God the Father, from the beginning, the only begotten God, by God the Father...

Just that the Father, that no one has ever seen or heard from except our God, was, or used to be, just "slightly lesser" than him, but no less of being our God though, for he is our God that we can see and hear, and/for there is no other God that we can see or hear or behold at all besides him, the God the Son, our God...

He is the only God we know of, and we can only possibly even know our God the Father only through and by him, as our God, and there is no other way, other than that...

I believe he stepped into time with us (Jesus as our God, who is also YHWH) to be a part of time with us and experience time with us, after creation, after they (God the Father, God the Son (Him our God) and God the Holy Spirit) created it...

It was necessary for God the Son to lose something, like a little bit of his omniscience, (or former glory) in order For God the Father (and them) (the triune God), to show us him/them and his/their heart... It was necessary for him (our God) to lose a little bit of that, to do that, or it would not have been possible to do that, (them to show us them)...

Full omniscience (or being a being with 100% full complete omniscience) would have "restricted" and prevented him/them from doing that (showing us them/God and their heart)... It took, and would take one, just "slightly less" (Christ as our God) to do that, or it would not have been possible, without them, or one or any of them, becoming just "slightly less"... For them trying to show us them, with 100% omniscience, they would have had to have been "acting" (like an actor) or "pretending", to "not know" things that they already knew (or IOW's they would have had to be being deceptive) or they (any one of them, trying to show us them)... It is just is not possible with 100% full omniscience, without basically lying or being deceptive in some way... Which they just do not ever do...

Our God (YHWH/Christ) had to step down into time with us and creation with us and lose or forsake some of his former omniscience, (or former glory) and be and become a part of time with us to show us them (God) and their heart and their being and person, and this one is our God... Otherwise it cannot and could not have been done... They chose the Son for this task, and he became "God with us", after creation...

Now they (the three) were always with each other, but took "turns" in being the head of the Godhead... In the OT and immediately after creation and up to the crucifiction, it was God the Son at the head as our God, and is the only one we know of as God, and is the one we have to know in order to know at all, the other two, at all... Cause the Son showed, and shows us God, cause he is our God...

He is the only God we can see and hear, which makes him our God, or God with us, and is the only way to know anything about the other two, when you have the full revelation of the Son as our God, or come to know him fully as God, then you will know the other two at that time, for there is no other way to know them...

God Bless!

I see it more of like Christ putting on a blindfold so that He may not see instead of his eyes being completely removed. A person can still have their eyes and not see if they either close them or if they cover them with a blindfold.

I believe Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge) during His Earthly ministry so as to be like a type or figure of Adam (See 1 Corinthians 15:45-49, and Romans 5:12-21). Like Jesus, Adam was also limited in knowledge. Adam before the fall did not have the knowledge of good and evil yet. It says that after he bit of the fruit, his eyes were opened and he knew he was naked. So his eyes were closed before. God closed his eyes. If Christ is a parallel of Adam, then this should fit in what we see about Jesus Christ and the Kenosis (Philippians 2:6-9). For if Jesus is to truly to be the same yesterday, today, and forever He cannot really change the essence of who is as God. For I see the powers or miracles of God as being a natural attribute of who God is. For if you take away superman's powers, is he still superman? No. For what makes superman super is that he has super powers. It kind of goes with the territory. Can God still be God and not have his powers anymore? Suppress them? Yes. For suppressing power does not mean you do not have it anymore. It merely means that you are burying that power. Philippians 2:6-9 says that Jesus took the form of a servant, humbled himself, and became obedient unto death and yet he thought it was not robbery to be equal with God.

Side Note:

When Jesus speaks of sharing in the glory with the Father before the creation of the world in John 17, this could be something that is a part of the rule that Christ had with God the Father involving the angels in Heaven before He created the Earth. It seems highly unlikely (IMO) that "glory" is referring to Christ's essence as God in Him naturally having power as God.

Questions about the Nicene Creed and some Christian forum rules about beliefs...?

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