Questions about the Nicene Creed and some Christian forum rules about beliefs...?

[Neogaia777]

We are not allowed here on Christian forums to have or hold or express any beliefs that would go against the Nicene Creed, so, I have a few questions about it...?

I nearly agree with all of it, and I actually do think I do agree with all of it, and the parts I have questions about I bolded and commented on, and would like some clarification on... As it has been said that some of my beliefs may go against it, and I'm trying to figure out if that is really true or not...?

The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)



True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)

John 17:1-5-

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


I have glorified thee on the earth, (or in and among the creation)...? In what way did he (Jesus) glorify him (The Father) on or in the earth...? Did he glorify him (The Father) "above" himself...? or not...?

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (with you) "BEFORE the world was"...?

Does this mean before the Creation, and perhaps, "after" creation (and stepping down into that/the creation) he lost some of that "former glory" with the Father that he (Jesus) had with him (the Father) "before the world (or creation) was"...? Or not...?

"In the beginning" first words in the Bible, can mean in Hebrew also, "Behold, a cross"... A cross means sacrifice of some sort, could that have been some of his (Christ's) "former glory" perhaps...? Or not...?

Oh, and, True God of the True God, yes, I believe that...



of one "essence" with the Father (John 10:30)

John 10:30- "I and the Father are One"

What does "one essence" mean from this...? Does this have to mean "in every way the same", or in every way "equal", or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!



Oh, and also in the Christian forum rules is this:

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

What does it mean to deny the full eternal deity of Jesus Christ...?

Does that mean you can never, ever suggest or believe that he (Son of God, God the Son) was in any way shape or form was never not equal to the Father in any and every way, shape, or form, at any time, or for any period of time...? or not...?

Much thanks,

God Bless!

 

[hedrick]

True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)

Remember, the Nicene Creed was a reaction to Arianism. It claimed that Christ was divine but not equal to God. Also that he was created in time. Before creation of the world, but not eternal. "God from God, light from light, true God from true God" was intended to emphasize the fact that the Logos was fully God, and not a subsidiary deity.

I have glorified thee on the earth, (or in and among the creation)...? In what way did he (Jesus) glorify him (The Father) on or in the earth...? Did he glorify him (The Father) "above" himself...? or not...?

The passage itself explains "by finishing the work that you gave me to do." That is, Jesus honored or gave glory to God by doing the work that God gave him.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (with you) "BEFORE the world was"...?

Does this mean before the Creation, and perhaps, "after" creation (and stepping down into that/the creation) he lost some of that "former glory" with the Father that he (Jesus) had with him (the Father) "before the world (or creation) was"...? Or not...?

The passage goes on to ask God to give him (Jesus, probably speaking here as the Logos) the glory that the Logos had when he was with the Father before creation. Refer back to John 1:1: the Logos was with God before creation; the world was made through him.

of one "essence" with the Father (John 10:30)

John 10:30- "I and the Father are One"

What does "one essence" mean from this...? Does this have to mean "in every way the same", or in every way "equal", or not...?

The creed uses the term homoousia, meaning of the same substance with the Father. This was by far the most controversial word in the Creed, but also the most central one. That is, the Creed was created to deal with Arianism, and this it the most critical word. In the original Nicene context it simply means that the Son is just as much God as the Father, that he is of the same nature.

In fact many historians will tell you that the term was a compromise, which could be understood in two different ways. It could be understood to say either that the Son is just like the Father or it could be thinking of the substance as a single thing that they both shared.

John 10:30 was written hundreds of years before that, and thus wasn't addressed to this specific question. It could mean simply that they are united in goals and actions. It doesn't necessarily have the same ontological implications as Nicea. A better citation for "of the same substance" is probably John 1:1: the Logos was God.

 

[Neogaia777]

Remember, the Nicene Creed was a reaction to Arianism. It claimed that Christ was divine but not equal to God. Also that he was created in time. Before creation of the world, but not eternal. "God from God, light from light, true God from true God" was intended to emphasize the fact that the Logos was fully God, and not a subsidiary deity.

I believe that Christ is our God... But, "always equal to", or the "always the same in every way" to the Father, I'm not so sure of... I do think he was at the very beginning... I think, (or wonder) if he might have lost some of his "former glory" that he had with the Father when he stepped down into creation with us... And/but got it all back when he was resurrected... But, the time in between, I'm not sure of, and that he might have became a part of time, by stepping down into time with us, or his creation, I'm not sure of also or either...

Remember "In the beginning" in Hebrew, can also mean "Behold a cross" which denotes sacrifice of some sort or in some way...

The passage itself explains "by finishing the work that you gave me to do." That is, Jesus honored or gave glory to God by doing the work that God gave him.

Did he (Christ) put God (The Father) above himself, or not...?

The passage goes on to ask God to give him (Jesus, probably speaking here as the Logos) the glory that the Logos had when he was with the Father before creation. Refer back to John 1:1: the Logos was with God before creation; the world was made through him.

Did the Son lose some of that glory after creation...?

The creed uses the term homoousia, meaning of the same substance with the Father. This was by far the most controversial word in the Creed, but also the most central one. That is, the Creed was created to deal with Arianism, and this it the most critical word. In the original Nicene context it simply means that the Son is just as much God as the Father, that he is of the same nature.

In fact many historians will tell you that the term was a compromise, which could be understood in two different ways. It could be understood to say either that the Son is just like the Father or it could be thinking of the substance as a single thing that they both shared.

John 10:30 was written hundreds of years before that, and thus wasn't addressed to this specific question. It could mean simply that they are united in goals and actions. It doesn't necessarily have the same ontological implications as Nicea. A better citation for "of the same substance" is probably John 1:1: the Logos was God.

So, they could be alike or the same in "some ways", and "not in others", or "equal in some ways", but "not in others", or what...?

Again, I got in a lot of trouble for this, and am just trying to clarify to see if my beliefs are mistakes, wrong, or are just not easily accepted as some of the ways I presented them maybe, were misinterpreted or misunderstood...?

What does it mean to deny the full deity of Christ...?

God Bless!

I would like to note that if the Son lost anything by steeping down to interact and be a part of his creation with us, that the Father was in him and with him (The Son) also (along with the H.S.) but the Father lost nothing by staying with the, or his Son, if that is at all true in any way, that is...?

I'd also like to note that, right now I'm just testing a theory, and am not yet sure about these things for sure yet, in any way (yet)...

God Bless!

 

[A_Thinker]

Remember "In the beginning" in Hebrew, can also mean "Behold a cross" which denotes sacrifice of some sort or in some way...

Are you sure about this ? Do you have some evidence that this is true ?

As far as what happened when the Son became a man, ... I've always thought of the story of the Prince and the Pauper. The Prince can take on the life of a pauper, and thus, lose privilege, ... but He is always a Prince, and can always retake His royal role and privileges.

 

[Neogaia777]

Are you sure about this ? Do you have some evidence that this is true ?

As far as what happened when the Son became a man, ... I've always thought of the story of the Prince and the Pauper. The Prince can take on the role of a pauper, and thus, lose privilege, ... but He is always a Prince, and can always retake His royal role and privileges.

I do not know for sure, and have not been able to find it online, but I heard it on a radio preaching program, from a Hebrew scholar though that they had on there...

Either way it does still seem that God the Son lost something, some of his former glory that he had "Before the world (or creation) was" in John 17:5, and being restored to the glory he had before creation, also does kind of suggest, that he may not have had or lost some of that former glory "after" creation, or shortly after creation, maybe...

God Bless!

 

[dzheremi]

Hi Neogaia777,

Looking properly at the Nicene Creed involves understanding something of its historical context, as indicated by Hedrick in his reply. To that end, I would very much recommend that you take some time to read the defense of it by its author (according to the Coptic Orthodox tradition), HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, known under the Latin title of De Decretis (this is how you'll find it on many websites with English translations of it, since the popular ones were done by people within that sphere of influence, being Protestants). It is fairly technical, in the sense that it uses words in such a matter that presupposes the reader's familiarity with the controversy, but it is valuable to know because you can not only get a sense there about how it was originally meant to be understood, but also the context of the objections it sought to answer (in a way similar to how a lot of what is known about Arius, et al. come from the writings of their opponents who sought to answer these heresiarchs' objections to Orthodox teachings). Schaff's translation seems pretty readable to me as a layperson, and you can find it here as part of the collection of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: NPNF2-04. Athanasius: Select Works and Letters - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Moving on, I must respectfully dissent from the answer you have so far been given concerning John 10:30 in one respect only, because to say that it wasn't written to address the same exact objections as the Nicene Creed is obvious enough, but has no bearing on how that passage was nevertheless understood (and it was not understood to mean only that "they are united in goals and actions", though that is not so much wrong as it does not go far enough). Hence we can look to a saint like St. John Chrysostom, the great expositor of the east, who explains that passage in the following way in his 61st homily on the Gospel of St. John:

"For My sheep hear My voice, and follow Me; and I give unto them eternal life ; neither can any man pluck them out of My hand. The Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

Observe how in renouncing He excites them to follow Him. "You hear Me not," He says, "for neither are you sheep, but they who follow, these are of the flock." This He said, that they might strive to become sheep. Then by mentioning what they should obtain, He makes these men jealous, so as to rouse them, and cause them to desire such things.

"What then? Is it through the power of the Father that no man plucks them away, and have you no strength, but art too weak to guard them?" By no means. And in order that you may learn that the expression, "The Father which gave them to Me," is used on their account, that they might not again call Him an enemy of God, therefore, after asserting that, "No man plucks them out of My hand," He proceeds to show, that His hand and the Father's is One. Since had not this been so, it would have been natural for Him to say, "The Father which gave them to Me is greater than all, and no man can pluck them out of My hand." But He said not so, but, "out of My Father's hand." Then that you may not suppose that He indeed is weak, but that the sheep are in safety through the power of the Father, He adds, "I and the Father are One." As though He had said "I did not assert that on account of the Father no man plucks them away, as though I were too weak to keep the sheep. For I and the Father are One." Speaking here with reference to Power, for concerning this was all His discourse; and if the power be the same, it is clear that the Essence is also. And when the Jews used ten thousand means, plotting and casting men out of their synagogues, He tells them that all their contrivances are useless and vain; "For the sheep are in My Father's hand"; as the Prophet says, "Upon My hand I have pictured your walls." Isaiah 49:16 Then to show that the hand is One, He sometimes says that it is His own, sometimes the Father's. But when you hear the word hand, do not understand anything material, but the power, the authority. Again, if it was on this account that no one could pluck away the sheep, because the Father gave Him power, it would have been superfluous to say what follows, "I and the Father are One." Since were He inferior to Him, this would have been a very daring saying, for it declares nothing else than an equality of power; of which the Jews were conscious, and took up stones to cast at Him. John 10:31 Yet not even so did He remove this opinion and suspicion; though if their suspicion were erroneous, He ought to have set them right, and to have said, "Wherefore do ye these things? I spoke not thus to testify that my power and the Father's are equal"; but now He does quite the contrary, and confirms their suspicion, and clenches it, and that too when they were exasperated. For He makes no excuse for what had been said, as though it had been said ill, but rebukes them for not entertaining a right opinion concerning Him.
​

+++

From this (and not only this, but similar writings from St. Augustine, St. Hippolytus of Rome, my personal favorite St. Gregory Thaumaturgus/"Gregory the Wonder-worker", etc.), we can see how such questions as the ones you have asked were expounded upon both before Nicaea and after it (NB: while St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine are both post-Nicaean, St. Hippolytus and St. Gregory Thaumaturgus both significantly predate Nicaea, passing on in 235 and 270, respectively). The early Church indeed taught that Christ was incarnate and did not lose in any sense or to any measure any of His glory which He had with the Father before the world was created.

The key term homoousios is used in the Creed to emphasize precisely this: homo- meaning 'the same' and ousia meaning 'essence' -- so they are of one and the same essence, not differing in kind of quality or in any other way.

I hope this helps in some small way.

 

[Neogaia777]

es·sence
ˈesəns/
noun

1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.
   "conflict is the essence of drama"
   synonyms: quintessence, soul, spirit, nature;
   core, heart, crux, nucleus, substance;
   principle, fundamental quality, sum and substance, warp and woof, reality, actuality;
   informalnitty-gritty

Character, personality, nature, most importantly "heart"... In this they are most definitely "one" and the same...

God the Son's sole purpose is to show us the Father's heart... his feelings, his nature, his soul, his "essence" in that respect...

However, what would it have took for a God, to show a God's heart...?

I suggest some things had to be "sacrificed", or forsaken, or left behind, or alone for God the Son, to show us God, the Father's "heart" (soul, essence, character, personality, feelings, ect)...

A thing like, "full omniscience", would prevent a God from showing us that, (his/their heart) I might think...

God Bless!

 

[A_Thinker]

Either way it does still seem that God the Son lost something, some of his former glory that he had "Before the world (or creation) was" in John 17:5, and being restored to the glory he had before creation, also does kind of suggest, that he may not have had or lost some of that former glory "after" creation, or shortly after creation, maybe...

God Bless!

Or ... set it aside ...

Recall, in the OT, the glory of God was such that no man could see it and live.

But the purpose of Jesus' incarnation was for men to "see" God.

Therefore, the Son put aside some of His glory ... so that men could see Him, and yet, live ...

Philippians 2

5 You should have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

6 Who, though he was God, (2:6 Or Being in the form of God.)
did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges (2:7a Greek he emptied himself.
he took the humble position of a slave (2:7b Or the form of a slave)
and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

 

[Neogaia777]

Or ... set it aside ...

Recall, in the OT, the glory of God was such that no man could see it and live.

But the purpose of Jesus' incarnation was for men to "see" God.

Therefore, the Son put aside some of His glory ... so that men could see Him, and yet, live ...

Philippians 2

5 You should have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

6 Who, though he was God, (2:6 Or Being in the form of God.)
did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges (2:7a Greek he emptied himself.
he took the humble position of a slave (2:7b Or the form of a slave)
and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

That Glory that God in the OT had was also called not as great a glory that would come about later on, in and with the NC and NT...

Some saw that glory and lived also, like Moses...

God in the OT was God the Son...

And I suggest that it was not only in his existence as man, that was the beginning of him laying aside his glory, maybe a bit at a time, but that that began with creation... That may be why it was/is called a fading glory or diminishing glory...

God Bless!

 

[A_Thinker]

That Glory that God in the OT had was also called not as great a glory that would come about later on, in and with the NC and NT...

I don't know of any scriptural justification for such a belief ...

Some saw that glory and lived also, like Moses...

Moses saw the "backside" of God (i.e. NOT His unviewable glory) ...

God in the OT was God the Son...

At ALL points ???

And I suggest that it was not only in his existence as man, that was the beginning of him laying aside his glory, maybe a bit at a time, but that that began with creation ... That may be why it was/is called a fading glory or diminishing glory ...

WHERE is it called that ?

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't know of any scriptural justification for such a belief ...



Moses saw the "backside" of God (i.e. NOT His unviewable glory) ...



At ALL points ???



WHERE is it called that ?

Paul talks about the OT OC glory (and possibly the glory of that God, or the God of that glory) being a diminishing or fading, or glory that was (in the process of) passing away...

God the Son was head of the Godhead from the beginning of creation to the time of the resurrection, but the Godhead (Father and H.S.) (along with himself) was always with him and in him and was always a part of him in and through it all...

But the Son was at the head, and had headship of it/him/them (The Godhead) from creation to resurrection, which was the Father's will and "good pleasure" the Bible calls it...

Even the OT glory might have been too glorious to look upon directly, but the NT glory even more so... Paul talks about that also...

(2 Corinthians 3:7-15)

God Bless!

 

[dzheremi]

Concerning this idea that Jesus Christ our God somehow diminished in glory...

Perhaps complicating the picture a little bit (and I've only just thought about this right now, or else I would've found some way to include it in my previous reply) is the presence of certain passages in the scriptures which say things like this (Philippians 2:5-11):

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

+++

Passages such as these, if taken in isolation, can be argued to show a certain diminution, for lack of a better way to put it, if we consider that of course the divinity and the humanity are not therefore the same as natures, and hence in taking upon Himself our human nature He is thus subjecting Himself to a kind of lessening. Two things must be kept in mind, however: (1) As you can tell if you read the verses immediately preceding these (which I have excised as to make this more readable, and to focus in on the ultimate point), the writer is extolling his readers to be, as an assembly, "like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind", and to not do anything for one's own sake in itself without considering others, and so on. So he is using Christ's own willingness and readiness to submit to what is later described as the example of how we too should be. And (2), this is not traditionally understood as a lessening in itself, such that God the Son should somehow be ashamed or be leaving behind anything in the process of the Incarnation, because of course the incarnation itself is not the exchanging of one thing for another, or the mixture of two or the confusion of natures (God forbid!), but the true and perfect and complete union of God in His divinity with the humanity common to all of mankind, and thus that which is assumed (the human nature) is saved by its assumption by the very God and Creator of the universe! (to enthusiastically harken back to our father St. Gregory Nazianzen, who said "That which is not assumed is not saved"...hehe)

Thus things like this are understood not as somehow a "loss" for God (?), but the true salvation of humanity through His coming. This is why we pray in the more traditional churches prayers such as the following (taken from the Coptic Orthodox Nativity liturgy):

"O Thou THE BEING throughout all time have come to us on earth. You have come into the womb of the virgin. You the infinite, You the infinite being God, did not consider equality with God, a thing to be held on to, but released it and emptied Yourself, and took the form of a servant, and blessed my nature in Yourself, and fulfilled Your law on my behalf. You have shown me the rising up from my fall; You have given release to those who were bound in Hades; You have lifted the curse of the law; you have abolished sin in the flesh; You have shown me the power of Your authority; You gave sight to the blind; You raised the dead from the tombs; You established nature by the word; You have manifested to me the plan of Your tender mercy; You bore the oppression of the wicked; You gave Your back to the scourge; Your cheeks, You left open to those who slap; for my sake, O my Master, You did not hide Your face from the shame of spitting..."

If you read the above as a lessening of Glory, then there is something to be learned still about the incarnation and its mysteries, that God should come to us as wholly and perfectly God and wholly and perfectly man, because this is indeed central to the Christian faith, including also of course the understanding of the Nicene Creed. To that end, no one can do better than to read HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic's classic On The Incarnation, which lays out as well as anyone has ever been able to do both the reality of the incarnation and its necessity in the economy of salvation.

This is a bedrock belief of the Christian faith, that Christ our God was incarnate and became man, without change, confusion, or mixture.

 

[Neogaia777]

Paul talks about the OT OC glory (and possibly the glory of that God, or the God of that glory) being a diminishing or fading, or glory that was (in the process of) passing away...

God the Son was head of the Godhead from the beginning of creation to the time of the resurrection, but the Godhead (Father and H.S.) (along with himself) was always with him and in him and was always a part of him in and through it all...

But the Son was at the head, and had headship of it/him/them (The Godhead) from creation to resurrection, which was the Father's will and "good pleasure" the Bible calls it...

Even the OT glory might have been too glorious to look upon directly, but the NT glory even more so... Paul talks about that also...

(2 Corinthians 3:7-15)

God Bless!

(Ephesians 2:14-16)- "For He Himself (Jesus) is our peace, who has made both (sides, men, God's) one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, (veil) (in between God and man)

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, (or seemingly opposing positions between) that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, (OT, OC, and NT, NC) so as to create in Himself one new man (God) from the two, (His past self, and now his now self, into his after self (or future self), who was then restored to the former glory he had, alongside the Father, before anything was created or was made) thus making peace,

and that He might reconcile them both (his past self, and his now self) to God (The Father) in one body (his after self) (one new man or God from the two) through the cross, (in death) thereby putting to death the enmity (or seemingly opposing positions between) (tearing and ripping apart the veil between) (man and God, or God and man)"

We need to discern the one new man, or God that was made from both, for one was not abolished or abandoned, or cast off, or aside for the other, but the two became one... They were made "whole" "complete" (again) (like in before the beginning) (former glory)...

He (Christ, as a man) was reconciling to himself (as a God) "man" through his (Christ's) life and existence as a man, showing man the way to be reconciled to, or have peace with God, as men...

God Bless!

 

[Butch5]

We are not allowed here on Christian forums to have or hold or express any beliefs that would go against the Nicene Creed, so, I have a few questions about it...?

I nearly agree with all of it, and I actually do think I do agree with all of it, and the parts I have questions about I bolded and commented on, and would like some clarification on... As it has been said that some of my beliefs may go against it, and I'm trying to figure out if that is really true or not...?

The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)



True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)

John 17:1-5-

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


I have glorified thee on the earth, (or in and among the creation)...? In what way did he (Jesus) glorify him (The Father) on or in the earth...? Did he glorify him (The Father) "above" himself...? or not...?

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (with you) "BEFORE the world was"...?

Does this mean before the Creation, and perhaps, "after" creation (and stepping down into that/the creation) he lost some of that "former glory" with the Father that he (Jesus) had with him (the Father) "before the world (or creation) was"...? Or not...?

"In the beginning" first words in the Bible, can mean in Hebrew also, "Behold, a cross"... A cross means sacrifice of some sort, could that have been some of his (Christ's) "former glory" perhaps...? Or not...?

Oh, and, True God of the True God, yes, I believe that...



of one "essence" with the Father (John 10:30)

John 10:30- "I and the Father are One"

What does "one essence" mean from this...? Does this have to mean "in every way the same", or in every way "equal", or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!



Oh, and also in the Christian forum rules is this:

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

What does it mean to deny the full eternal deity of Jesus Christ...?

Does that mean you can never, ever suggest or believe that he (Son of God, God the Son) was in any way shape or form was never not equal to the Father in any and every way, shape, or form, at any time, or for any period of time...? or not...?

Much thanks,



God Bless!

I wouldn't worry too much. From what I've seen I don't think many here hold to the Nicene Creed.

 

[A_Thinker]

That Glory that God in the OT had was also called not as great a glory that would come about later on, in and with the NC and NT...

Some saw that glory and lived also, like Moses...

God in the OT was God the Son...

And I suggest that it was not only in his existence as man, that was the beginning of him laying aside his glory, maybe a bit at a time, but that that began with creation... That may be why it was/is called a fading glory or diminishing glory...

God Bless!

The passage you cite (2 Corinthians 3), speaks of a comparison of the old Covenant (of Law) to the new covenant (of Grace). The passage says, if effect, that even the Old Covenant came with glory, ... and the new Covenant is even more glorious.

In the discussion, Paul speaks of the glory which rested upon Moses' face (after meeting with God) fading ...

 

[SkyWriting]

We are not allowed here on Christian forums to have or hold or express any beliefs that would go against the Nicene Creed, so, I have a few questions about it...?

I nearly agree with all of it, and I actually do think I do agree with all of it, and the parts I have questions about I bolded and commented on, and would like some clarification on... As it has been said that some of my beliefs may go against it, and I'm trying to figure out if that is really true or not...?

The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)



True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)

John 17:1-5-

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


I have glorified thee on the earth, (or in and among the creation)...? In what way did he (Jesus) glorify him (The Father) on or in the earth...? Did he glorify him (The Father) "above" himself...? or not...?

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (with you) "BEFORE the world was"...?

Does this mean before the Creation, and perhaps, "after" creation (and stepping down into that/the creation) he lost some of that "former glory" with the Father that he (Jesus) had with him (the Father) "before the world (or creation) was"...? Or not...?

"In the beginning" first words in the Bible, can mean in Hebrew also, "Behold, a cross"... A cross means sacrifice of some sort, could that have been some of his (Christ's) "former glory" perhaps...? Or not...?

Oh, and, True God of the True God, yes, I believe that...



of one "essence" with the Father (John 10:30)

John 10:30- "I and the Father are One"

What does "one essence" mean from this...? Does this have to mean "in every way the same", or in every way "equal", or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!



Oh, and also in the Christian forum rules is this:

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

What does it mean to deny the full eternal deity of Jesus Christ...?

Does that mean you can never, ever suggest or believe that he (Son of God, God the Son) was in any way shape or form was never not equal to the Father in any and every way, shape, or form, at any time, or for any period of time...? or not...?

Much thanks,

God Bless!

A creed is both adding something unneeded or asked for to scripture
and repeating something over and over thinking that it justifies you.
But as long as you are seriously convinced it is important, then God
does not count it against you.

5One man regards a certain day above the others,
while someone else considers every day alike.
Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

 

[Neogaia777]

I wouldn't worry too much. From what I've seen I don't think many here hold to the Nicene Creed.

If you express any beliefs that go against it, your going against the forum rules...

And if you express any belief that says or states that Christ was not always equal to God the Father in every way, then according to them your technically rejecting the "full deity of Christ" which is also against the rules...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

A creed is both adding something unneeded or asked for to scripture
and repeating something over and over thinking that it justifies you.
But as long as you are seriously convinced it is important, then God
does not count it against you.

5One man regards a certain day above the others,
while someone else considers every day alike.
Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

I'm only concerned about it for the sake of being able to express my beliefs on this forum without going against the rules...

And finding out if my beliefs can fit within the forum rules, or not...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Many will say and admit that Jesus the man, was not completely equal to God the Father as a man, and while that is technically rejecting the full deity of Christ, it is accepted, and considered acceptable...

So, why is it such a stretch to say that he was not always completely equal to God the Father, as a God, as our God in the OT either...? That is not considered acceptable and will get you in trouble...? Why is that...?

God Bless!

 

[gordonhooker]

I wouldn't worry too much. From what I've seen I don't think many here hold to the Nicene Creed.

Not sure what lot you belong to but the Nicene Creed is used by all orthodox and traditional denominations.