Questions about the Book of Mormon

[he-man]

If we LDS folks want something that pointedly says that, the default citation is just to quote the 10 commandments- it can't get any more direct then that.
I'm curious: why do you ask?

And how do you explain James 2:26 that says the body without theSpirit is DEAD.. Notice: Spirit is capitalized

 

[he-man]

Please be respectful to my thread and do not try to derail it. If you want to address any other topics, you are free to start a new thread. Please do not disrespect my thread answering @JIMINZ's specific questions.

Yes, please no questions that she cannot answer

 

[Jane_Doe]

And how do you explain James 2:26 that says the body without theSpirit is DEAD.. Notice: Spirit is capitalized

Yes, please no questions that she cannot answer

*sigh*
As I have said many times now, you are welcome to start a new thread and have questions not related to this OP *answered* THERE.

 

[curiouskay]

.,.,.,.,.,I'm curious: why do you ask?

I wanted to know if this concept of morality was universal among all religions. So far, the answer is YES

-

 

[JIMINZ]

Hi everyone,

JIMINZ and I were chatting over on this thread (Why are Mormons hated by other Christians?), and started to get a little off topic, so came here to continue the conversation and not derail the other thread.

Her/his question were:


I'll address one common is conception first, and then hit each of these questions on the head--

No, the Bible is the Mormon Bible (and the Baptist Bible and Methodist Bible, etc...). We use the 66 book Protestant Bible, the KJV in English. The Book of Mormon is not a replacement for this in any way, and for every 1 year of LDS Sunday School spent on the Book of Mormon, 2 years are spent on the Bible. All scripture are viewed as sisters, loved and believed together.

The Book of Mormon claims to be a record of Christ's dealing with people in the New World (the Americas). The story starts out in 600 BC with a Jewish prophet in Jerusalem, who is commanded to leave before the cities destruction. Following God's commands, he & his family leave, travel to the sea, and eventually build a boat to which is guided by God to the Americas.

For the next thousand years, God interacts with these people, as He does with all of His followers. There are of course plenty of people who fall away, contentions, preaching of Christ, etc. Eventually the people all choose love of wickedness over love of God. Instructed by God, the last righteous prophets abridge the record and stories of their people onto golden plates, before burying them.

Centuries later, new peoples and new nations have arrived on the Americas. It is believed that God choose a new prophet, and lead him to where the plates were. The leading was done via his messenger, the angel Moroni (remember, "angel" means "messenger"). The translation of the plates into English was then done through the power of God.


John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" - Christ

It is believed that His followers in the Americas were these other sheep, and Christ went to go visit them. He did so because He loves them too, and went to minister unto them too.


The Book of Mormon's purpose is to testify of Christ, hence it is another testimony/testament of Jesus Christ.

Some highlighted verses--

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”
Moroni 10

"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins."
2 Nephi 25

"And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty stormshall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall."
Helaman 5

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Hi Jane

Sorry, It was not my intention to leave hung out to dry, I was busy until now, forgive me.
Looking at your profile, I noticed your 108 yrs old, your pretty sharp for 108.

I don't know where or how to begin soooo, I will start like this.
I am curious to find out just what it is you believe.
I was raised Catholic, parochial school and all, after my military service I left the Church (Not God), got Saved in 1968, have attended Baptist, Church of God, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, Messianic Fellowship, Charismatic Fellowship.

I claim Charismatic, because it is the closest to what my beliefs actually are, but that's just a general label of belief, not a hard and fast rule.
Through all of the different Denominations I have come, I have heard the same types of things concerning the Mormon Religion, all of the questions you are pelted with on a regular basis.

I am not looking at you as an Ideology which is wrong and in need of correction, No, not at all.
I am looking at you as person, with beliefs which differ with my own, I would like to know first hand, just what those differences actually are.
I live by this.

Rom. 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

With that In mind, I would like to give you the opportunity to express and answer what you would say are the biggest misunderstandings people have about The Mormon Religion?

Then.
1) Have you been a Mormon since you were a child?
2) How does a Mormon attain Salvation?
3) What is gained by the Mormon in/through Baptism?
4) Do Mormons consider themselves to be Born Again, if so why?

There are more questions, but these will do for now.
Thanks for your reply to my questions, I will read over them and see if I have any more questions on them for clarity sake.
I know it's late where you are, because it's late here, have a restful sleep.

 

[cloudyday2]

Have the Mormons attempted to connect cultures, locations, events recorded in the Book of Mormon with what archaeologists know?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Have the Mormons attempted to connect cultures, locations, events recorded in the Book of Mormon with what archaeologists know?

There are man-made attempts both for and against this. If you want I can grab you some links. I'm personally not of looking to man to prove "truthfulness" in spiritual things (rather the Spirit should be sought for testifying of spiritual matters).

 

[cloudyday2]

There are man-made attempts both for and against this. If you want I can grab you some links. I'm personally not of looking to man to prove "truthfulness" in spiritual things (rather the Spirit should be sought for testifying of spiritual matters).

Here is something I just found on Wikipedia.
Historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon - Wikipedia

So do you consider the history of the Book of Mormon to be mythical or allegorical or something - much as many Christians consider the history of Genesis?

 

[Jane_Doe]

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Sorry, It was not my intention to leave hung out to dry, I was busy until now, forgive me.

No worries. My schedule's been super scrambled too after taking off to watch the eclipse (which was totally amazing!).

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Looking at your profile, I noticed your 108 yrs old, your pretty sharp for 108.

Haha, I'm 30. I don't like having my private information posted on a super public profile, and CF won't let me skip that question, so I put in obviously false information. But I'm don't mind people asking. Free free to ask me any question.

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I am curious to find out just what it is you believe.

Awesome. Feel free to ask any question you'd like.

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I was raised Catholic, parochial school and all, after my military service I left the Church (Not God), got Saved in 1968, have attended Baptist, Church of God, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, Messianic Fellowship, Charismatic Fellowship.

I claim Charismatic, because it is the closest to what my beliefs actually are, but that's just a general label of belief, not a hard and fast rule.

Cool. I grew up LDS, left for some years during my undergrad (being a rebel and because I had mega personal issues going on), and came back as a different person because this is where I honestly find Truth.

I have a major passion for interfaith dialogue because 1) I want to know and 2) I want to honestly respect and love people, which includes honestly understanding their faith because that's a huge part of who a person is. I've always tried to make it to a dozen or so different churches a year (besides my own), to see and increase my love/understanding for the people there.

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Through all of the different Denominations I have come, I have heard the same types of things concerning the Mormon Religion, all of the questions you are pelted with on a regular basis.

Haha. Yep, I have heard them all. My favorite is when people (in complete seriousness) think I literally have horns. I assure, I don't And yes, I do actually manage to move in the morning without coffee.

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I am not looking at you as an Ideology which is wrong and in need of correction, No, not at all.
I am looking at you as person, with beliefs which differ with my own, I would like to know first hand, just what those differences actually are.
I live by this.

Rom. 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

That's awesome. I'll try to highlight some of the similarities/differences to other Christian faiths in my answers for you.

Bytheway: you ask FANTASTIC questions.

 

[Jane_Doe]

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With that In mind, I would like to give you the opportunity to express and answer what you would say are the biggest misunderstandings people have about The Mormon Religion?

Oh there's a ton of them.

I would say that the biggest/most important is that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don't believe in Jesus Christ. He is the divine Son of God, our Lord and Savior, the center point of our faith, the Alpha and Omega. We follow Him. We are indeed Christians.

Common myths related to this you'll hear are:
"Mormons are Christians because they don't accept the Creeds"- uh... the Creeds aren't scripture. The scriptural definition of a Christian is found in Acts 11:26- a disciple of Christ.

LDS people, having this scriptural definition in mind, to say "you're not a Christian" is to tell that person "you have no relationship with Christ"-- downright disregarding the central part of who each of us are. Yes, LDS do have some different beliefs than Catholics (as do Catholics vs Baptist vs Lutheran, etc), and no one is overlooking those or "same difference" those- they are real and important. But we all do have a relationship with Christ and try our best to follow Him, and it's super important to acknowledge that too.

 

[Jane_Doe]

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Then.
1) Have you been a Mormon since you were a child?

Oops, I jumped the gun on this one. See post #29.

I need to run some errands for a little bit, but will address rest of your questions when I get back.

 

[Jane_Doe]

So do you consider the history of the Book of Mormon to be mythical or allegorical or something - much as many Christians consider the history of Genesis?

Overall the traditional view is that it's actual history, but I do know Mormons who view it more allegorical. Certain parts are viewed as being symbolic and very clearly meant to be symbolic.

For my personal view: I'm a practical-ist. The purpose is to teach about Christ, and I see allegorical/symbolic/literal/etc arguments to not really matter in terms of practicality-- scripture's purpose is the actual message about Christ. This applies for the Bible and Book of Mormon.

 

[Jane_Doe]

2) How does a Mormon attain Salvation?

Common myth: "Mormons believe their works get them to heaven". That's complete bunk. In all my studied of dozens different faiths, I have never met one that believes works get you to Heaven, and met 100% who expressly believe the opposite. No rite or anything separate from Christ will save you.

Salvation is a gift from God, made possible through Christ's incredible sacrifice. That being said, we aren't to cheapen His gift and sacrifice by casually one day saying "oh yeah, I accept Christ as my savior", and then continue about our same-same sinful day, lacking real faith or repentance. In order to be saved a person must accept the gift of salvation God offers. God's not going to force it on you, or force you to heaven. You must choose to accept Him. (You'll notice LDS theology is REALLY big on God giving us the ability to choose).

Accepting God's gift of salvation starts by having faith in Him. This faith is also a gift from God, one that He offers everyone. We each individually choose whether to accept this gift, or to cast it out. If a person chooses to cast it out, they cannot be saved. Note: when I say this I'm talking about if they choose to cast it out and keep choosing to cast it out. Someone who first chooses to reject faith but later accepts it is welcomed.

Once a person has faith for God, they must repent of their sins. Repentance is a gift made possible through Christ & His atonement. He makes every step possible and walks with us every step, carrying our weight. Still, He does not force us.

After faith and repentance comes baptism. I'll talk about that more with your next question.

 

[Jane_Doe]

3) What is gained by the Mormon in/through Baptism?
4) Do Mormons consider themselves to be Born Again, if so why?

Baptism is talked about thoroughly in the scripture. I'm sure you know the Bible references, so I won't preach to the choir here. There are also many great Book of Mormon references to it such as:
Mosiah 21
Alma 7
3 Nephi 11
(I highlighted the verses I'm pointing to so you can find them super easy).

Baptism is a covenant (a two way promise) we make with God. We repent of our sins, are washed clean, and born again. We take on His name as His disciple. Being baptized is an honor, a gift, and a commandment from our Lord. Desire to be baptized and born again is the natural product of having faith in Christ and a repentant heart, and is required for salvation. Baptism must be done by a believing individual, via full immersion, by one that holds the priesthood (authority) of God.

Note: while baptism is required for salvation, the mere act of getting dunked doesn't save anyone. "Bob" can be baptized a million times, but if he doesn't have faith and repentance, the only thing he's doing is getting wet. Also, true baptism is an ordinance of God: a promise we make with Him through His power, where He washes us and has us born again. Our power alone does squat.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Taking a post to compare these answers with other Christian groups:

-- No one believes that you can work your way to heaven
-- Vast vast majority of Christian groups do believe that you must have faith in order to be saved. I have met a few ultra-predestination groups which believe a person is saved first (involuntarily) and then faith is (involuntarily) forced on a person. But those are a very small minority.
-- Vast majority of Christians groups believe a saved person does need to repent of their sins. I can talk about some groups that disagree with this if you like.
-- Different groups believe all sorts of different things about baptism. Things like whether or not it's necessary for salvation, infants vs believers, immersion vs other methods, etc. If you want me to talk more about this I can.

****

About being saved: is it an event vs process. I have found this difference to important thing to understand when studying different Christian groups.

Some Christian groups view being saved as a one time event. They will say things like "I was saved on March 3, 2012". The theology here is usually along the lines of equating "being saved" = "I accepted Christ as my savior on this day". It's a single event: once and done. They then label growing as a Christian as "sanctification" (things like quitting sinful habits, growing in faith, etc). Many of them believe in once-saved-always-saved. Groups included in this camp typically trace their origins back to later Protestant reformers, particularly Calvin.

Other Christians groups view salvation as a process: that you are saved today, again tomorrow, and every day as you walk with Christ. There is no division between salvation and sanctification: they are both part of your walk with Christ. These groups acknowledge a person can choose to turn away from Christ and hence loose salvation. Some groups included here are Catholics, Orthodox, and LDS.

***

Anyway, I think I've rambled enough for one morning . Let me know if you want me to go more in depth on anything, include scripture citations, and of course any more questions. This has been a pleasure.

 

[JIMINZ]

Common myth: "Mormons believe their works get them to heaven". That's complete bunk. In all my studied of dozens different faiths, I have never met one that believes works get you to Heaven, and met 100% who expressly believe the opposite. No rite or anything separate from Christ will save you.

Salvation is a gift from God, made possible through Christ's incredible sacrifice. That being said, we aren't to cheapen His gift and sacrifice by casually one day saying "oh yeah, I accept Christ as my savior", and then continue about our same-same sinful day, lacking real faith or repentance. In order to be saved a person must accept the gift of salvation God offers. God's not going to force it on you, or force you to heaven. You must choose to accept Him. (You'll notice LDS theology is REALLY big on God giving us the ability to choose).

Accepting God's gift of salvation starts by having faith in Him. This faith is also a gift from God, one that He offers everyone. We each individually choose whether to accept this gift, or to cast it out. If a person chooses to cast it out, they cannot be saved. Note: when I say this I'm talking about if they choose to cast it out and keep choosing to cast it out. Someone who first chooses to reject faith but later accepts it is welcomed.

Once a person has faith for God, they must repent of their sins. Repentance is a gift made possible through Christ & His atonement. He makes every step possible and walks with us every step, carrying our weight. Still, He does not force us.

After faith and repentance comes baptism. I'll talk about that more with your next question.

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I fully accept the Scriptural Definitions of both Disciple, and Christian, found in Acts 11:26

But we must understand, there is another word which a person must BECOME, before they can be called a Disciple or a Christian.

The words Disciple and Christian are both words which describe a BORN AGAIN BELIEVER.

A Believer is what we are, what we become, being a Disciple or a Christian is what we do.

It is more important for a person to become a Born Again Believer and have a relationship with Christ, than belonging to a Denomination, which then only identifies you as a certain type of Christian.

The only identification I need is, my identification IN Christ, not to which Denomination I belong.

Salvation is a gift from God, made possible through Christ's incredible sacrifice. That being said, we aren't to cheapen His gift and sacrifice by casually one day saying "oh yeah, I accept Christ as my savior", and then continue about our same-same sinful day, lacking real faith or repentance. In order to be saved a person must accept the gift of salvation God offers. God's not going to force it on you, or force you to heaven. You must choose to accept Him. (You'll notice LDS theology is REALLY big on God giving us the ability to choose).

Let me see if I can put this into a different perspective for you.

Have you ever gone to an Anniversary, Wedding, Birthday, bringing a Gift with you, that at the proper time you offered to the person or persons involved, then waited for their acceptance or refusal of your Gift?

There isn't anywhere in all of Scripture which says, Gods' Gift of Salvation is only offered to us, nor does it say we have the ability to either accept, or reject our Salvation.

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1) By what Scripture verse or verses does the LDS theology base it's understanding of God giving us the ability to choose?

I find this same belief of choice (Free Will) in other Christian Denominations,..... now that is a Myth.

Have you ever in your life been given a Gift which you had the ability to either accept or Reject, or were they just always given and received, what makes us believe, God's Gifts are any different?

 

[Jane_Doe]

1) By what Scripture verse or verses does the LDS theology base it's understanding of God giving us the ability to choose?

There's a whole bunch: Agency
A personal favorite of mine: "Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

I find this same belief of choice (Free Will) in other Christian Denominations,..... now that is a Myth.

I take it your a Calvinist?

Have you ever in your life been given a Gift which you had the ability to either accept or Reject, or were they just always given and received, what makes us believe, God's Gifts are any different?

All the time. For example, all of those million purses my mom used to buy me, and then instantly go into the closet to collect dust. And then she'd roll her eyes as I lost my keys or license for the 5th time that week.

Question for you: if free will is a myth, why does anyone go to Hell? Why are all men not saved?

 

[JIMINZ]

There's a whole bunch: Agency
A personal favorite of mine: "Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

I take it your a Calvinist?

All the time. For example, all of those million purses my mom used to buy me, and then instantly go into the closet to collect dust. And then she'd roll her eyes as I lost my keys or license for the 5th time that week.

Question for you: if free will is a myth, why does anyone go to Hell? Why are all men not saved?

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Calvinist? NO!

When you say choice, (Free Will), how are you defining it.

1) Is free will the ability to choose your clothes today.
2) Is it the ability to sin or not sin.
3) Through free will, do we possess the ability to come to God when "WE" want Salvation?

Your confusing Free Will with Dominion, within Dominion we do have the ability to choose.

The subject or concept of Free Will isn't ever taught in the whole Bible, the term Free Will is never even mentioned.

Question for you: if free will is a myth, why does anyone go to Hell? Why are all men not saved?

Rom. 9:11-24
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat. 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

 

[mmksparbud]

Rion, your attempt to completely derail this thread is not appreciated. I will not be addressing your disrespectful comments here. If you wish to have them addressed, feel free to start your own thread on this sub-forum Debate Non-Christian Religions.

How is it derailing to contradict the teachings of Mormonism??

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Personally, I think the sheer implausibility of the stories surrounding the origin and content of the Book of Mormon are enough to dismiss it as a fraud, even before you find that archaeological evidence and everything we know about the Americas stands in direct opposition to its claims.

Of course, "translating" it in a seriously flawed imitation of King James English doesn't exactly help Smith's case, nor do his tall tales about golden breastplates, seeing stones and other flamboyant elements.

I have a hard time picturing how anybody who didn't grow up in a Mormon setting could possibly be convinced by any of this, unless they are in some life crisis and respond out of a deep need for company and feelings of security.