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Questions about the Book of Mormon

Jane_Doe

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When you say choice, (Free Will), how are you defining it.

1) Is free will the ability to choose your clothes today.
2) Is it the ability to sin or not sin.
3) Through free will, do we possess the ability to come to God when "WE" want Salvation?
Simply "the ability to choose".
.
Your confusing Free Will with Dominion, within Dominion we do have the ability to choose.
? If you're talking about verses like "He shall have dominion", it is a similar/closely related concept.
.
The subject or concept of Free Will isn't ever taught in the whole Bible, the term Free Will is never even mentioned.
Choosing is mentioned frequently...
.
Rom. 9:11-24
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat. 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
People's interpretations of verses vary greatly in Christiandom. Would you mind explaining how you see these verses answering my question?
 
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Jane_Doe

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I have a hard time picturing how anybody who didn't grow up in a Mormon setting could possibly be convinced by any of this, unless they are in some life crisis and respond out of a deep need for company and feelings of security.
Honestly, if I would to list the most "strange" things I believe (as seen from the outside perspective), I don't think anything with the Book of Mormon would even make the top 10. The list of "strangest" things I believe would start off with--

1) I believe that there is this infinitely powerful being out there, called God.
2) This infinitely powerful being has the time of day to care about me, a tiny little ant. In fact, He loves me more than I can understand!
3) He loves me so much that He sent His perfect Son to die for me!
Etc...
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Honestly, if I would to list the most "strange" things I believe (as seen from the outside perspective), I don't think anything with the Book of Mormon would even make the top 10. The list of "strangest" things I believe would start off with--

1) I believe that there is this infinitely powerful being out there, called God.
2) This infinitely powerful being has the time of day to care about me, a tiny little ant. In fact, He loves me more than I can understand!
3) He loves me so much that He sent His perfect Son to die for me!
Etc...

Nah, theism is not that strange. Unjustified sentimentalism, sure, but nothing as overtly mistaken as trusting an obvious snake oil salesman claiming that he found golden plates written in "Reformed Egyptian" which he translated into fake King James English with the help of a magic stone.
 
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mmksparbud

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Nah, theism is not that strange. Unjustified sentimentalism, sure, but nothing as overtly mistaken as trusting an obvious snake oil salesman claiming that he found golden plates written in "Reformed Egyptian" which he translated into fake King James English with the help of a magic stone.

In a hat.
 
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JIMINZ

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Simply "the ability to choose".

? If you're talking about verses like "He shall have dominion", it is a similar/closely related concept.

Choosing is mentioned frequently...

People's interpretations of verses vary greatly in Christiandom. Would you mind explaining how you see these verses answering my question?
.
Hi Jane

I did not give an interpretation of the verses I provided, I let them speak for themselves.
But since you asked, God is the one who decides, not man.

Rom. 9:16,18
16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It doesn't say Predetermines, Predesignates, it says Shows Mercy.

Getting back to Free Will.
When I asked for your definition of Free Will you said
"Simply the ability to choose"

That is a nebulous answer, covering a lot of ground and understandings, therefore could you answer the other two questions.

When you say choice, (Free Will), how are you defining it.

1) Is free will the ability to choose your clothes today.
" The above answered by you"


2) Is it the ability to sin or not sin.
3) Through free will, do we possess the ability to come to God when "WE" want Salvation?
 
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Jane_Doe

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I did not give an interpretation of the verses I provided, I let them speak for themselves.
But since you asked, God is the one who decides, not man.

Rom. 9:16,18
16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It doesn't say Predetermines, Predesignates, it says Shows Mercy.
Thank you for sharing your perspective.

Sharing the LDS perspective now:
No where in scripture do you read about the people God so hates that he created them just to force them to Hell. That's because God didn't create people to hate, nor does He force anyone to Hell (or Heaven). Rather, scripture speaks of "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

God loves the entire world. Every single person in it. He offers salvation to every single person there, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That's right: we must believe in Christ in order to be saved. God does not force belief on anyone, but we must accept it. Those that will spend eternity separate from God do so because they choose to reject God's loving gift, and not because God forced anyone anywhere.

In Romans 9-11, Paul continually stresses how a person's salvation is dependent on on faith: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Emphasis mine). Paul is urging his audience to have faith in Him.

Now specifically addressing your questions--
.
1) Is free will the ability to choose your clothes today.
" The above answered by you"
Yep. And more.
.
2) Is it the ability to sin or not sin.
Yep: we have the the ability to choose to follow Him or to rebel.
.
3) Through free will, do we possess the ability to come to God when "WE" want Salvation?
We have the ability to choose or reject faith in Him. Belief is required in order to be saved.
 
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JIMINZ

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Thank you for sharing your perspective.

Sharing the LDS perspective now:
No where in scripture do you read about the people God so hates that he created them just to force them to Hell. That's because God didn't create people to hate, nor does He force anyone to Hell (or Heaven). Rather, scripture speaks of "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

That's cool and sounds good, but aren't you overlooking the verses which I posted?

You have completely negated them, and made the usual assumption by believing God Predestines people for damnation, that is not only negating, it is contradicting what is clearly written.

I have not interpreted these verses, I have not added to them any Doctrines of belief, they say plainly what they say, they are to be believed, understood, or rejected as false, there isn't any Oh yeah BUT.

Rom. 9:16,18
16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

PARABLE:
Mat. 13:25-30
25) But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26) But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27) So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28) He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

PARABLE Explanation:
Mat. 13:36-43
36) Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Whose seed (Children) are the Tares?

Are there not whole Nations of peoples around the world, which have not and will not ever become Christians?

How about just the Jewish people since Jesus 2,000 yrs ago.

There are things which we do not know of, but can we always say God Predestined these people to burn in Hill because He hated them before the foundation of the world?

You have said it yourself, does that sound like the loving God we have been taught about?
No it doesn't, then there must be some sort of dynamic which we are not privy to, therefore, we can't just make the knee jerk reaction.

That's placing what we know, what we feel, think, believe, understand over the WISDOM of God Himself.

I am but a piece of clay, who am I to question the actions of a RIGHTEOUS God.
If He is not Righteous, I don't want to know Him, He has to be Righteous otherwise, our hope is lost, and we are of all men most miserable.
Thou He slay me yet will I trust Him.

God loves the entire world. E
very single person in it. He offers salvation to every single person there, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That's right: we must believe in Christ in order to be saved. God does not force belief on anyone, but we must accept it. Those that will spend eternity separate from God do so because they choose to reject God's loving gift, and not because God forced anyone anywhere.

In Romans 9-11, Paul continually stresses how a person's salvation is dependent on on faith: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Emphasis mine). Paul is urging his audience to have faith in Him.

What you have expressed are assumptions based on (The Either Or mentality of man) what we believe as humans is, "if it's not this, then it must be that," our finite minds cannot conceive of other outstanding circumstances which would override our understanding.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Now specifically addressing your questions--
1) Is free will the ability to choose your clothes today.

Yep. And more.

I say it's Dominion which gives us the ability to choose, but you haven't seen that yet.


2) Is it the ability to sin or not sin.

Yep: we have the the ability to choose to follow Him or to rebel.

We were born Salves to sin because of our sin nature, No Free Will.
We are Born Again, unto God as Slaves of Righteousness. No Free Will.

Eph. 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Rom. 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants (Slaves) of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom. 6:20
For when ye were the servants (Slaves) of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

BUT NOW!

Rom. 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants (Slaves of righteousness.

Rom. 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We do not have the ability to sin or not sin, we sin because it is our nature to sin, because of the fall of Adam.
We are Slaves to sin, that is why we needed a Savior, we could not stop sinning on our own, we do not have the ability to stop sinning.
Oh sure, there are a few things which we are capable of changing in our lives, but 99% of the time we give in to sin, as Slaves must do.

3) Through free will, do we possess the ability to come to God when "WE" want Salvation?

We have the ability to choose or reject faith in Him. Belief is required in order to be saved.

Do human beings really possess the ability to come to Salvation when we decide to?

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Our acquiring Salvation is not our decision in our time, it is the Gift of God

Eph. 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

If we decided one day to become Saved and believe in Christ as Savior, then that would constitute a work.

Eph. 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom. 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

ERGO No Free Will, from birth we are the slaves of Sin, Don't take that to mean Original sin from the Catholic understanding.
But possessing a sin nature which sins naturally.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The biggest example of the absence of Free Will is found in Rom. 7:

If he had Free Will, he would not do those things he doesn't want to do, but because he does not have Free Will, he does do those things he doesn't want to do.

But we have a Savior, Jesus the Christ.

Sorry about the length.
 
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Jane_Doe

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That's cool and sounds good, but aren't you overlooking the verses which I posted?
Not at all. I talked about them and rest of the sermon they are a part of: "In Romans 9-11, Paul continually stresses how a person's salvation is dependent on on faith: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Emphasis mine). Paul is urging his audience to have faith in Him. "

We need to look at the entirety of a sermon to understand it's meaning. Paul clearly states that faith is required for salvation. Rest of scripture clearly states this as well.

Would you like to talk about these verses which espouse the necessity of faith for salvation?

You have completely negated them, and made the usual assumption by believing God Predestines people for damnation
It's not an assumption, but the logical conclusion of this idea you are espousing: if the only way a person gets to Heaven is by God forcing them there, then any person who ends up in Hell is because God (through inaction) forced them there.
PARABLE:
Mat. 13:25-30
25) But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26) But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27) So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28) He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

PARABLE Explanation:
Mat. 13:36-43
36) Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Whose seed (Children) are the Tares?
Those people who *choose* to reject the Word are the other soils described here.
Are there not whole Nations of peoples around the world, which have not and will not ever become Christians?

How about just the Jewish people since Jesus 2,000 yrs ago.
They too shall have the opportunity to hear of Christ and accept Him, even if it did not come in this mortal life.
There are things which we do not know of, but can we always say God Predestined these people to burn in Hill because He hated them before the foundation of the world?
That is the logical conclusion of the ideas you are espousing...
Obviously LDS theology is different.
You have said it yourself, does that sound like the loving God we have been taught about?
Love never forces. God is love and never forces. He allows us choice. Any being who forces another is undeserving of admiration, let alone praise or worship.
 
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he-man

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Thank you for sharing your perspective.
Sharing the LDS perspective now:
We have the ability to choose or reject faith in Him. Belief is required in order to be saved.
FUNNY WHY YOU USE THE KJV AND NOT THE MORMON BIBLE TO SUPPORT OUR CLAIMS.
 
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Jane_Doe

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FUNNY WHY YOU USE THE KJV AND NOT THE MORMON BIBLE TO SUPPORT OUR CLAIMS.
The KJV is the "Mormon" Bible. Do you not like talking about Bible verses? I simply quoted John 3:16 because it was the first verse to come mind (hits the nail of on the head), and Romans 9 because that's the chapter cited earlier.

If for some reason you want to read some Book of Mormon verses on the subject (or other Bible ones) I can provide plenty. Such as "Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth." 2 Nephi 2
 
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he-man

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The KJV is the "Mormon" Bible. Do you not like talking about Bible verses? I simply quoted John 3:16 because it was the first verse to come mind (hits the nail of on the head), and Romans 9 because that's the chapter cited earlier.

If for some reason you want to read some Book of Mormon verses on the subject (or other Bible ones) I can provide plenty. Such as "Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth." 2 Nephi 2
Sorry, I thought you were a mormon. The KJV of the Bible was translated starting in 1604 and completed in 1611 for the Church of England by about 4 dozen scholars and clergymen from different committies who were especially influenced by William Tyndale, a Priest, which was the first major English translation. So, do you accept Tyndale's translation?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Sorry, I thought you were a mormon. The KJV of the Bible was translated starting in 1604 and completed in 1611 for the Church of England by about 4 dozen scholars and clergymen from different committies who were especially influenced by William Tyndale, a Priest, which was the first major English translation. So, do you accept Tyndale's translation?
LDS use the KVJ Bible.
 
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Jane_Doe

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ok what is it then
What Is the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ and confirms the truths found in the Holy Bible. Far from undermining the Bible, the Book of Mormon supports its testimony of Jesus Christ. One passage says that the Book of Mormon “shall establish the truth” of the Bible “and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved”

Book of Mormon
 
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Jane_Doe

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(1) How do Mormons feel about reading other translations of the Bible?
Nothing horribly wrong with it. Of course you always want to know the history of your translation, it's biases, etc.
(2) How do Mormons feel about using modern English for the Book of Mormon?
The Book of Mormon is in KJV-style English, which is fine. There are random Mormons who put modern-English style versions, but these are totally not official in any way.
 
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he-man

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What Is the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ and confirms the truths found in the Holy Bible. Far from undermining the Bible, the Book of Mormon supports its testimony of Jesus Christ. One passage says that the Book of Mormon “shall establish the truth” of the Bible “and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved” Book of Mormon
I thought the Bible said not to add or take away anything or you would be subject to condemnation!
 
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