Questions about the Baha'i

[dcalling]

First because the religion will dominate all religions. The Quran even says there will be no people of the book but that will believe in Jesus before the day of judgement.

What does this mean? "no people of the book but that will believe in Jesus"?

Isa is going to return, and Imam Mahdi is going to return, so while a revelation won't come, guidance will come to people.

In Christian believes, Jesus' return signals the end of world, all will be judged before God.

I don't believe that return of any man/prophet will change the people. In the Bible. Moses lead Jews out of Egypt and they sinned. King David did adultery, Muhammad took wife out of war booties, no man will be able to lead the nations and keep all people straight, only God can do that. And Jesus has said that his Kingdom is not of this world, that means this world will never be cleansed from sin.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I know the Bahai view. I'm just stating that guidance and sunnah of God has not changed from a shia perspective. This is because a revelation is still here, and there will be more guidance with Imam Mahdi and Jesus, and there is a wisdom as to why revelation stopped as I showed from the shia perspective.

 

[AskTheFamily]

What does this mean? "no people of the book but that will believe in Jesus"?

This means all will believe in him when he comes with Imam Mahdi. Everyone of the people of book will believe in his support of Imam Mahdi.

 

[dcalling]

This means all will believe in him when he comes with Imam Mahdi. Everyone of the people of book will believe in his support of Imam Mahdi.

Thanks. I thought you mean there will be no people of book that believe in Jesus...

Anyway, I think it is very strange that 2 leaders will appear at the same time, and with the one that is the word of God and spirit of God let a Imam lead.

The Christian believe is much consistent, that Jesus tells us to Love each other, to not judge people, because all judgement should come from God, and when Jesus come, the end will come and God will judge all. So in the end, the world will be destroyed in sin and God will take charge.

 

[smaneck]

Muhammad took wife out of war booties,

Yet the Bible allowed that and does not consider it a sin.

Numbers 31
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves"

Deuteronomy 20: 10-14:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Thanks. I thought you mean there will be no people of book that believe in Jesus...

Anyway, I think it is very strange that 2 leaders will appear at the same time, and with the one that is the word of God and spirit of God let a Imam lead.

Imam Mahdi is also the word of God and spirit of God.

 

[Arthra]

I'm glad that Ask the Family believes he knows the Baha'i view and he seems more confident in his religion... I think previously he seemed a little lost here about that.

To summarize some of the Baha'i view you need to appreciate two Messianic movements ... each separated by different cultures and religious contexts. Both centered on the date 1844 AD and 1260 AH. One developing from the Shaykhi movement in the early nineteenth century in what was then Persia and the other in the West called the Millerite movement in the context of Christianity.

Bahá'í History

And now, with reference to His words: "And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

These words signify that in those days men will lament the loss of the Sun of the divine beauty, of the Moon of knowledge, and of the Stars of divine wisdom. Thereupon, they will behold the countenance of the promised One, the adored Beauty, descending from heaven and riding upon the clouds. By this is meant that the divine Beauty will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of the human temple.

The term "heaven" denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God.

Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. With every fleeting breath they cover the immensity of space, and at every moment traverse the kingdoms of the visible and the invisible. Upon their thrones is written: "Nothing whatsoever keepeth Him from being occupied with any other thing;" and on their seats is inscribed: "Verily, His ways differ every day."[1] They are sent forth through the transcendent power of the Ancient of Days, and are raised up by the exalted will of God, the most mighty King. This is what is meant by the words: "coming in the clouds of heaven."[1 Qur'án 55:29.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 66)

 

[Mumin]

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[Mumin]

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[dcalling]

Yet the Bible allowed that and does not consider it a sin.

Numbers 31
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves"

Deuteronomy 20: 10-14:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Those are the commands given to Jews to get into their promised land. Look at what Jesus said in NT, which is for all to hear

 

[dcalling]

Imam Mahdi is also the word of God and spirit of God.

Any scripture to back it up?

 

[dcalling]

My post is addressed to smaneck, I posted it on another thread, but I copy and paste here, because it is related to Bahai religion, sorry in advance, but I have to tell this:

You believe in everything and in nothing. You sometimes support Christians, sometimes Muslims. You don't believe in the Qur'an, but your religion tells that you must believe in it. So, you can't contradict your religion, what to do? You distort the Scripture.
Your religion is pure contradiction. You can't attain your "unity of religion" by attacking everyone using ambiguity and contradiction. Rather, Muslims are aware of contradiction in the Bible, which Bahais seem not to be aware, we use the Qur'an as a criterion, and we judge according to it on what the Bible contradict itself. That's closer to your "unity of religion".
When I show you clear verses, you avoid to face them, and you look for ambiguous verses. But the intention of these verses is to guide some and misguide others.
And the Qur'an even warn us of people like that:
3:7 It is He who has sent down to you, (O Muhammad), the book; in it are verses (that are) precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation (from truth), they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation (suitable to them)...

Look at this then. sura 5:47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

God's word is the truth, and the truth is very clear.
Jesus commanded us to Love God and Love our neighbors as ourselves, to pray for our enemies.
Straight forward and easy to understand, God's word preserves over translations because it is from God and God keep it clear. You follow the word of God and repent to God, and you can saved by God's grace. The revelations of God is clear.

 

[smaneck]

Imam Mahdi is also the word of God and spirit of God.

I agree. But in that case, revelation has not ceased.

 

[smaneck]

Any scripture to back it up?

Sure, but maybe not your scripture.

"“I am the Primal Point,” the Báb thus addresses Muḥammad Sháh from the prison-fortress of Máh-Kú, “from which have been generated all created things… I am the Countenance of God Whose splendor can never be obscured, the light of God whose radiance can never fade… All the keys of heaven God hath chosen to place on My right hand, and all the keys of hell on My left… I am one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God. Whosoever hath recognized Me, hath known all that is true and right, and hath attained all that is good and seemly…"

Baha'is believe the Bab was the Mahdi. Ask the Family says Christians will embrace him. Who do you see accepting the Bab as the Mahdi but those of us of Christian background? Indeed, I became a Baha'i because I saw Christ in the Bab.

 

[smaneck]

My post is addressed to smaneck, I posted it on another thread, but I copy and paste here, because it is related to Bahai religion, sorry in advance, but I have to tell this:
You believe in everything and in nothing. You sometimes support Christians, sometimes Muslims.

Sometimes Christians are right and sometimes Muslims are right.

You don't believe in the Qur'an,

Sure I do. What I don't believe in, is your interpretations.

Your religion is pure contradiction. You can't attain your "unity of religion" by attacking everyone using ambiguity and contradiction.

I don't attack everyone. Have you ever seen me attack Via Crucis? I do attack stupidity and bigotry, however.

Rather, Muslims are aware of contradiction in the Bible, which Bahais seem not to be aware, we use the Qur'an as a criterion, and we judge according to it on what the Bible contradict itself.

Ah, so that's your problem. It is not that we don't believe in the Qur'an, it is that we believe in the Bible as well. Sorry about that. Not really, not sorry at all.

3:7 It is He who has sent down to you, (O Muhammad), the book; in it are verses (that are) precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation (from truth), they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation (suitable to them)...

Looks to me as though you are the one using your own interpretations to seek discord. I am seeking unity.

 

[smaneck]

Those are the commands given to Jews to get into their promised land.

Let's stay on the same page. You inferred Muhammad committed a sin by taking wives as war booty, something the Hebrew people are explicitly allowed to do in the Tanakh. We are not talking about conquering Palestine as a whole. The truth, is that if these woman were not taken and married to their captors they would likely die with no one to protect them. It wasn't a sin to do this, it was a necessity. It was no different in Muhammad's time than it was in the time of the ancient Hebrews. And nowhere does Jesus abrogate this. The Baha'i Faith is the first religion to abolish slavery.

 

[Niblo]

Mistranslation. Khatam Nabi means Seal of the Prophets, not last of them.

Hello Susan. I trust you are well.

‘Muhammad is not the father of any one of you men; he is Allah’s Messenger and the seal of the prophets: Allah knows everything.’

(Al-Ahzab: Verse 40).

In his article ‘Muhammad - the Last Prophet’ Dr. Ahmad Shafatt writes:

‘The Arabic word for “seal” is “khatam” which by a change of vowel can also be read as “khatim”, meaning "that which puts the seal". Both words are derivatives of khatama, which means both to end or conclude something or to put a seal in order to indicate such an end or conclusion.

‘No matter how the word is supplied with vowels, which were omitted in the original Arabic script, the most reasonable way, if not the only way, to understand the verse is that Muhammad completed and closed the prophethood as a seal marks the completion and closure of a document, that is, he was the last prophet.’

Comment:

The verse is open to interpretation, and therefore requires clarification from the aHadith. You have quoted one of ‘A'ishah’s in support of the claim that Muhammad was not the last of the prophets.

This Hadith - for which there is no early authority - represents a personal view of ‘A'ishah; and as such cannot be a source of Islamic belief unless supported by a consensus among the companions of the Prophet. There is no such consensus.

‘Narrated Sad:

‘Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk, appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said: "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said: "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."’

(Sahih Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700). See also Sahih Muslim: Book 31, numbers 5913 and 5914; Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. I, Page 174; Sunan Ibn Majah, Page 12; al-Khasa’is (al-Nisa’i) Pages 15-16; and Mushkil al-Athar (al-Tahawi), Vol. 2, Page 309.

And here are the words of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) himself:

‘O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me……….I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.

‘All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed Your message to Your people.’

(Final Sermon).

You quote the following:

‘Say (Prophet): “If the whole ocean were ink for writing the words of my Lord, it would run dry before those words were exhausted” - even if We were to add another ocean to it.’

(Al-Kahf: 109)

Comment:

This verse does not promise - or event hint at - the coming of a prophet after Muhammad (as you seem to imply); how could it, when the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) has made it perfectly clear that he is the last?

Have a great day.

 

[smaneck]

Hello Susan. I trust you are well.

Hi Niblo,

Did you by any chance read this article? I'd like to hear your comments on it:

A Bahá'í Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam

 

[AskTheFamily]

Smaneck, a Nabi receives revelation or gives news from the heavens, while a Messenger has the clear conveyance.

All Messengers are naturally Nabis, but some Nabis worked to expand on the clear message of a Messenger in which they come as a successor/leader after.

However, as the place of Aeron to Moses shows, there being no Prophet after Mohammad implies Ali is a not a Messenger...otherwise Ali would have been a Messenger as Harun is stated to be a Messenger in Quran but not a Nabi if your interpretation is correct.

The correct understanding is Nubuwa pertains to any revelation given to humanity in form of knowledge while Raselah is the outreaching of the reminder to the masses in a clear manner that is understood by all.

Some Nabis weren't Rasools only due to the fact the clear Resalah message existed among their people and they were just revealing additional wisdom and reminder.

 

[Niblo]

Hi Niblo,

Did you by any chance read this article? I'd like to hear your comments on it:

A Bahá'í Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam

Hi.

Thank you. No....but I have managed to save it, and will come back to you, In šāʾ Allāh. This is very likely to be Monday at the earliest (heavy schedule.....for an old man, that is!).

Oh, please be aware that although I tend to write in a direct manner I have the very greatest respect for you; and for your beliefs. There will never be any 'attack'.

Bye for now.