Questions about the Baha'i

[AskTheFamily]

I'm aware many Muslims believe Prophet Muhammad is the "Last" prophet but it seems in the Qur'an it says there is no limit to God's words...

And were the trees that are in the earth pens, and the sea (ink) with seven more seas to swell its tide, the words of God would not be spent; verily, God is mighty, wise!

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 31 - Loqman)

Do you know the concept of "Muhadath" (One spoken to) in Islam. Shia and Sunni both believe pious people can be spoken to God but are not Prophets or Messengers.

In fact, it's something the 12 Imams taught us to pray to God for:


My Lord, grant me complete severance of my relations with everything else and total submission to You. Enlighten the eyes of our hearts with the light of their looking at You to the extent that they penetrate the veils of light and reach the Source of Grandeur, and let our souls get suspended by the glory of Your sanctity.
My Lord, make me one of those whom You call and they respond; when You look at and they are thunderstruck by Your majesty. You whisper to them secretly and they work for You openly.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Not to mention, Quran talks about God talking to the pious in the next world!

 

[Mumin]

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[AskTheFamily]

Mumin, the worse distortion I think of Bahais is their concept of the day of judgement. I was interested in Bahaism when I was about 17, and I then came across that they don't believe in the day of judgement and believe it's all a parable about the coming of Baha'allah while Mohammad was the day of judgement of Jesus and Jesus was the day of judgement of Moses. I discussed on a Bahai forum about verses in Quran about the day of judgement, and I found they didn't real have good answers for them.

The day of judgement is a clear concept in Quran, yet they deny it. So what do you want from them regarding the seal of Prophets.

Also Ba'ahallah acknowledged Du'a Nudba as the words of the Imams and in it is it stated "And he gave him the position of Harun to Musa. So he said "You are to me as Harun is to Musa, except there is no Prophet after me".

And that hadith is mutuwatir, in authentic sunni and shia hadiths........and Ba'ahallah trying to explain the verse of seal of Prophets stated it means every Prophet is the first and last of each other in the journey to God. They they are the beginning and seal. But such a meaning was not assumed by anyone and it would be deceiving of God to mean that.

I never saw a good response to that.

So if they can deny the day of judgement, then don't expect much of way of sincerity to the verses of Quran.

 

[smaneck]

What it doesn't say is "continuing revelation". The ayat make distinction.

I saw no distinction being made in that ayat whatsoever. And whether it used the words "continuing revelation" or not that is what having the Prophets lay down a Covenant whereby their followers are expected to accept future Messengers implies continuing revelation in my book.

There are more verses:
3:79 It is not for a human that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah," ...

What does this have to do with making distinctions?

The ayat you mention 29:18 says: "And there is not upon the Messenger except clear notification."
The word "balagu", translated as notification, means reach/convey. So, the Messenger has the duty of conveying/communicating clearly the Scripture, which is not "to reveal"

That verse doesn't say anything about scripture. Let's look at the entire passage:

And if you deny - already religions before you have denied. And there is not upon the Messenger except clear notification.

All that verse is saying is that a Messenger of God has the obligation to present the message to the previous religious community which they will likely reject, as has happened in the past.

, the ayat doesn't mention when it was revealed, but it does in 3:81, it says it was revealed previously: "Messenger confirms what is with you".

Every revelation confirms the message of the past.

2:87 And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. ...

You do realize that all of the 'messengers' which followed Moses in the Tanakh are called navi the direct cognate of nabi?
I know it, I read the Qur'an in Arabic, a translation is an explanation of the meaning. It says he is the last.

In another hadith he says "there is no other prophet after me". If a hadith differs from the Qur'an, the hadith is wrong.

LOL. There isn't a difference from the Qur'an, Aisha was merely saying 'Get the Qur'an right, instead of inserting your own interpretation.'

That's one interpretation, but the verse is clear.

It is not just one interpretation, it is the clear context of this ayah.

Actually I read it in your link, and I copied and pasted in my previous post. You are right, it doesn't say "closed", it says "did indeed close" (Najafi, Baha'iyán 436)

Sorry, I don't know who this guy is quoting, but it isn't Baha'u'llah.

What is theophany? Tell me an example.

A theophany is a Manifestation of God. Read Cole's article on this.

 

[smaneck]

Do you know the concept of "Muhadath" (One spoken to) in Islam. Shia and Sunni both believe pious people can be spoken to God but are not Prophets or Messengers.

But don't you think a reference to the Word of God not being exhausted implies something more than individual inspiration?

In fact, it's something the 12 Imams taught us to pray to God for:


My Lord, grant me complete severance of my relations with everything else and total submission to You. Enlighten the eyes of our hearts with the light of their looking at You to the extent that they penetrate the veils of light and reach the Source of Grandeur, and let our souls get suspended by the glory of Your sanctity.
My Lord, make me one of those whom You call and they respond; when You look at and they are thunderstruck by Your majesty. You whisper to them secretly and they work for You openly.

That's a nice prayer. From which Imam does it come?

 

[smaneck]

You write this in response to verses 11:118, 16:93, 3:4 and 3:19, you have been exposed, when I show you clear verses, you disbelieve.

45:6 These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what speech/information after Allah and His verses will they believe?
33:62 (This is) the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change.

Sounds to me like you are positing a change in 'the way of Allah' by suggesting revelation has ceased.

God says clearly in a verse of the Qur'an that Muhammad was the seal of the prophets, but you try to prove it wrong, showing an unspecific verse

No, what I am proving wrong is your interpretation of that verse. If I don't specify where a verse comes from it is because I am recollecting it from the top of my head. If you don't recognize it, let me know and I will be happy to find it for you.

And no one knows its (true) interpretation except Allah. ...

I'm glad you accept this.

 

[smaneck]

Mumin, the worse distortion I think of Bahais is their concept of the day of judgement. I was interested in Bahaism when I was about 17, and I then came across that they don't believe in the day of judgement and believe it's all a parable about the coming of Baha'allah while Mohammad was the day of judgement of Jesus and Jesus was the day of judgement of Moses.

To say we believe in a realized eschatology is not the same as saying we don't believe in the Day of Judgement. It is to say that we have a very different understanding of it.

Also Ba'ahallah acknowledged Du'a Nudba as the words of the Imams and in it is it stated "And he gave him the position of Harun to Musa. So he said "You are to me as Harun is to Musa, except there is no Prophet after me".

What is being lost here, as well as in the verse regarding Zayd not being prophet after Muhammad, is that in the Hebrew religion, prophethood was often something handed down from father to son or from teacher to disciple. Muhammad is saying this won't happen in his case.

 

[Arthra]

Mumin wrote:

God says clearly in a verse of the Qur'an that Muhammad was the seal of the prophets, but you try to prove it wrong, showing an unspecific verse, which doesn't specifically say about revelation of new Scriptures after Muhammad.

Thank you for your reply... Yes as I wrote above I know many Muslims believe that ...

Could you consider the word "Seal" for a moment.

If I receive a letter... open and examine it there is a "seal". The seal is from a Court.. It's an official document that means it is authorized by the Court. In the same way the "seal" of the Prophet Muhammad means it is authoritative.. The same as what was spoken by the Prophets and Messengers that were before Him.. this is what the Qur'an is about.

"Rather, the Prophet has come with the truth and confirmed the [previous] messengers."

Surat Aş-Şāffāt 37:37

 

[Arthra]

Ask the family wrote:

So if they can deny the day of judgement, then don't expect much of way of sincerity to the verses of Quran.

Thanks for your post Ask the family...

I was glad to hear that you at one time had investigated the Baha'i Faith!

I don't think we Baha'is "deny the day of judgement" as you suggest... We may feel that it is not as literal as you and others believe..

A verse in the Qur'an has

"They will ask Thee of the Hour --- for what time is its coming fixed? SAY: The knowledge of it is only with My Lord: none shall manifest it in Its time but He. "

(A'faf-7:187)

Note it says

"The knowledge of it is only with My Lord"

So the knowledge of it is not as many may suppose...!

and

"...none shall manifest it in Its time but He. "

It also says later in the same verse:

"Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the people do not know."

 

[AskTheFamily]

That's a nice prayer. From which Imam does it come?

Imam Ali is the author but it's come from all the Imams. It's mutuwatir. Munajatal Shabaniya is narrated by numerous authentic chains from the 12 Imams.

 

[smaneck]

Imam Ali is the author but it's come from all the Imams. It's mutuwatir. Munajatal Shabaniya is narrated by numerous authentic chains from the 12 Imams.

I like it, both because of its allusion to the Covenant of Alast and because it discourages taqlid. I regret that I'm not that familiar with Shi'ite munajats. I'm told the Baha'i months, however, are based on this munajat which my friend translated: New Page 1

 

[Mumin]

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[Mumin]

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[smaneck]

According to my dictionary, teophany is a manifestation of god to man by actual appearance, usually as an incarnation.
This belief is a sin in Islam.

You mean theophany. Manifestation is not the same as incarnation.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I like it, both because of its allusion to the Covenant of Alast and because it discourages taqlid. I regret that I'm not that familiar with Shi'ite munajats. I'm told the Baha'i months, however, are based on this munajat which my friend translated: New Page 1

Ismal Atham is a living reality, about God's signs and their link to him. Particularly, his glory in it's various stages, his light, his greatness, his perfections. 33:33 also has Ismal Atham, if you understand it with an attentive heart. It's not a word for sure, but it's as other supplications of Imams show, his face/his light in creation.

Suratal Fatiha also contains Ismal Atham in the line "By the name of God(the compassionate, the merciful)praise belongs to God"

Ruku and Sujood also have it by the words "wa behamdihi" if we understand it with an attentive heart.

Anyways, you are free to disagree.

 

[Arthra]

Mumin:

Thanks for your post!

You can look on the word as a noun or a verb...if a verb the "seal" is to seal something... If a noun the word is usually meant to be

(n.) An engraved or inscribed stamp, used for marking an impression in wax or other soft substance, to be attached to a document, or otherwise used by way of authentication or security.
(v. t.) Hence, to shut close; to keep close; to make fast; to keep secure or secret.


Seal Arabic Meanings: ????? - English to Arabic Dictionary

and

Many words have multiple meanings. The dictionary offers the following primary and related meanings for “kh átam”—the Arabic word for “seal” as a noun: • Ring • Stone placed on a ring • Official mark or seal (t o show that a letter or a document is authentic) The preceding are the primary and related meanings for “kh átam.”

 

[AskTheFamily]

Mumin:

Thanks for your post!

You can look on the word as a noun or a verb...if a verb the "seal" is to seal something... If a noun the word is usually meant to be

(n.) An engraved or inscribed stamp, used for marking an impression in wax or other soft substance, to be attached to a document, or otherwise used by way of authentication or security.
(v. t.) Hence, to shut close; to keep close; to make fast; to keep secure or secret.


Seal Arabic Meanings: ????? - English to Arabic Dictionary

and

Many words have multiple meanings. The dictionary offers the following primary and related meanings for “kh átam”—the Arabic word for “seal” as a noun: • Ring • Stone placed on a ring • Official mark or seal (t o show that a letter or a document is authentic) The preceding are the primary and related meanings for “kh átam.”

Thank you Arthra.

This is not how Baha'allah interpreted it though. He interpreted that Mohammad was the end of journey of all Prophets, and then stated all Prophets are the end journey of each other, and beginning of the journey of each other.

So why do you emphasize on it meaning this, when even your Prophet stated it meant something else, and had the meaning of the seal of the journey?

Also, since Bahais believe Ali was appointed as Mohammad's successor, don't you think the word "Mawla" can mean friend..but that doesn't take it's obvious meaning as Master/leader?

 

[Mumin]

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[Mumin]

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