Questions about the Baha'i

[Chesterton]

Baha'u'llah at different times said he was several different, seemingly contradictory things. Which one is true? Who was he? Do you think he was God as he claimed?

 

[light upon light]

Baha'u'llah at different times said he was several different, seemingly contradictory things. Which one is true?

Can you post what you are referring to? That makes it a lot easier to answer.

Who was he? Do you think he was God as he claimed?

Baha'u'llah explains this entire question here:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

Because it's a rather long passage, I will attempt to summarize:

1) The Manifestations of God (Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Baha'u'llah, etc.) reveals God to humanity in this world to educate us and guide an unfolding civilization.

2) The Manifestations of God are the perfect reflections of the Divine Reality in the world. So if we want to know God, we see God through the words and deeds of the Manifestation.

3) God does not literally incarnate as human being with a body, name, personality and the like.

4) The Manifestations represent God to us, and speak for God to us.

I hope that explains the Baha'i understanding in a way that makes sense.

 

[Chesterton]

Can you post what you are referring to? That makes it a lot easier to answer.

I got it from some pages of the previous site linked: Baha'i Library Forum - View topic - Who Claimed to be the Mahdi?

He said he was the gate of Mahdi, then that he was Mahdi, then that he was Muhammad, then other [sic] prophets, then he was Allah himself. It's confusing.

Baha'u'llah explains this entire question here:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

Because it's a rather long passage, I will attempt to summarize:

1) The Manifestations of God (Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Baha'u'llah, etc.) reveals God to humanity in this world to educate us and guide an unfolding civilization.

2) The Manifestations of God are the perfect reflections of the Divine Reality in the world. So if we want to know God, we see God through the words and deeds of the Manifestation.

3) God does not literally incarnate as human being with a body, name, personality and the like.

4) The Manifestations represent God to us, and speak for God to us.

I hope that explains the Baha'i understanding in a way that makes sense.

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.

So that's a "yes"? Bahaullah is/was God?

 

[light upon light]

He said he was the gate of Mahdi, then that he was Mahdi, then that he was Muhammad, then other [sic] prophets, then he was Allah himself. It's confusing.

You're putting together accounts of two different people, The Bab (who played a role similar to that of John the Baptist) and Baha'u'llah.


Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.

So that's a "yes"? Bahaullah is/was God?

Not in essence.

God in essence does not become flesh and blood. As it says in the Bible: "God is a spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth" - John 4:24

Baha'u'llah "Manifested" God, that is, revealed God to us as a chosen vessel of Truth.

So Baha'u'llah, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Buddha and the other Manifestations - represent God and show mortal human beings what God is like, and are the sources of God's authority in this world. So in that sense, they speak for God with the voice of God.

But no, the divine Reality doesn't become a physical human being which is born and dies.

 

[Chesterton]

You're putting together accounts of two different people, The Bab (who played a role similar to that of John the Baptise) and Baha'u'llah.


Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.



Not in essence.

God in essence does not become flesh and blood. As it says in the Bible: "God is a spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth" - John 4:24

Baha'u'llah "Manifested" God, that is, revealed God to us as a chosen vessel of Truth.

So Baha'u'llah, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Buddha and the other Manifestations - represent God and show mortal human beings what God is like, and are the sources of God's authority in this world. So in that sense, they speak for God with the voice of God.

But no, the divine Reality doesn't become a physical human being which is born and dies.

Is any of the following accurate?

Bahaullah mentions in Aqdas, page 43, "There is no God but I the Honored, the Wise."

He again writes in Aqdas, page 144 "Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (himself) the Lord of Eternity."

In Aqdas, page 8, Bahaullah says, "We have sent down all the Messengers and we have revealed all the Books."

In Istaqaaraat, page 34, Bahaullah writes, "The Master of Eternity lies in prison" (referring to his imprisonment and confinement).

In his Tablets, Page 217, Bahaullah writes, "All, save me are created from my command."

In his Al-Mubeen, page 34, Bahaullah writes, "All praise is for you O Bahaullah, the Creator of existence."

In the same book, page 190, he says, "Obey the commands of your Elevated, Splendorous God, Bahaullah.

Again in Al-Mubeen, page 297, Bahaullah again refers to himself as, "You Most Beneficent Lord, Bahaullah",

In his Tajalliyaat (Tajalli number 4), page 5, Bahaullah decrees, "Most surely I am Allah. There is no God save me. I am the Lord of everything. The O my creatures, you worship me alone."​

source: Bahaullah: Prophet or God? | The Bahai Truth

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Is any of the following accurate?

Bahaullah mentions in Aqdas, page 43, "There is no God but I the Honored, the Wise." ​

​

The reference may be to this verse in the Kitab-e Aqdas (verse 132):

O peoples of the world! Give ear unto the call of
Him Who is the Lord of Names, Who proclaimeth
unto you from His habitation in the Most Great Prison:
"Verily, no God is there but Me, the Powerful, the
Mighty, the All-Subduing, the Most Exalted, the
Omniscient, the All-Wise." In truth, there is no God
but Him, the Omnipotent Ruler of the worlds. Were it His Will, He would, through but a single word
proceeding from His presence, lay hold on all
mankind.
​

He again writes in Aqdas, page 144 "Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (himself) the Lord of Eternity."

​

Page 144 in the Aqdas is a blank page between the body of the text and the notes. I have searched the book for something similar but I did not find anything.
​

​

Your source appears to be practically useless, because it is so distorted by multiple transmissions over the internet (by people who did not go back to the source texts themselves). The words you quote are on numerous anti-Bahai web sites, as these people borrow from one another uncritically. The text of the Aqdas is online, for free. Your best bet would be to read it for yourself. Your alternative would be to try to figure out where "the Bahai truth" got his quote from, and so on back up the chain until you find which edition of the Aqdas, or what page number, was originally referred to. You might find the quote is from a text in a different language, or something like that. But it might just have been made up, and passed around on the internet. It's unlikely that the source is the Arabic text, simply because Arabic is a very concise language, and I doubt there's any Arabic edition with 144 pages.
​

​

The English text of the Aqdas is online here:
​

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá?í Reference Library
​

​

 

[smaneck]

Is any of the following accurate?

You are using a website set up by Muslims to denigrate the Baha'i Faith. Muslims are not the best source of information about the Baha'i Faith anymore than Jews are the best source about Christianity. Their translation of the Aqdas is highly questionable. It is so different from our own that I can't even match up the quotations. I'm thinking their references to the Lord of Eternity must refer to what we translate as the "Ancient of Days."

Sen provided you with a link to the translation we use, but here is one that provides the Arabic as well as other translations:

Kitáb-i-Aqdas (Most Holy Book)

Light upon Light gave the correct answer to your question about Baha'u'llah being God.

 

[Chesterton]

Your source appears to be practically useless, because it is so distorted by multiple transmissions over the internet (by people who did not go back to the source texts themselves). The words you quote are on numerous anti-Bahai web sites, as these people borrow from one another uncritically.

Yeah I did notice some identical wording across several sites, like there's been some cutting and pasting going on.

 

[Rationalt]

There are some online sources of the bahai book aqdas.

The following link has search facility.

Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Search results for: manifestation allah

quote
Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God", He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.

unquote

Bahiuallah indeed started as claims to prophethood and then graduated to manifestation of Allah to allah himself. Kind of confusing.

The links you gave is antibahai muslim. There are other muslim sites that are antibahai.Some of those claims seems to have some basis.

I got it from some pages of the previous site linked: Baha'i Library Forum - View topic - Who Claimed to be the Mahdi?

He said he was the gate of Mahdi, then that he was Mahdi, then that he was Muhammad, then other [sic] prophets, then he was Allah himself. It's confusing.


Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.

So that's a "yes"? Bahaullah is/was God?

 

[smaneck]

Bahiuallah indeed started as claims to prophethood and then graduated to manifestation of Allah to allah himself. Kind of confusing.

It is not a graduation. The concept of Manifestation is derived from Shi'ite Islam. Shi'ite apply the term not only to Prophets but Imams as well. Baha'is use the term much more exclusively to refer to greater Prophets who are generally founders of religion.

 

[light upon light]

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God", He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.

Here's the rest of the quote:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self within such a Court is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence."

Bahiuallah indeed started as claims to prophethood and then graduated to manifestation of Allah to allah himself. Kind of confusing.

If you read the previous quotation, it's very clear. and straightforward.

 

[Chesterton]

Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self within such a Court is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence."

Do Bahai's accept Jesus' Sermon on the Mount to be true?

 

[smaneck]

Do Bahai's accept Jesus' Sermon on the Mount to be true?

Not sure what you mean by the Sermon of the Mount but if you are referring to the Beatitudes I presume that along with the Lord's Prayer it is probably the best preserved of Jesus' sayings. This is what the Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan about the Gospel in general:

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"

 

[Arthra]

Thanks for the question Chesterton!

Baha'is accept the spiritual message of the Gospel... which would certainly include the Sermon on the Mount. Years ago when I went on pilgrimage I could see the Galilee on the eastern horizon from Mount Carmel.. a lovely scene it was!

There was a Baha'i publication in the early years of the twentieth century called "Star of the West" in which Abdul-Baha is quoted as saying:

"... The Bible and the Gospel are most honoured in the estimation of all the Bahá'ís. One of the spiritual utterances of his holiness Christ in his sermon on the mount is to me preferable to all the writings of the philosophers. It is the religious duty of every Bahá'í to read and comprehend the meanings of the Old and New Testaments."

(SOW - Star of the West, Star of the West - 4)

Another excerpt from the same publication has:

The covenant with Moses, uttered from the Sinai of Light, opened the door to the Promised Land. Its first articles were the Ten Commandments. The sovereignty of David, the splendour of Solomon, the flowering of Israel into a strong nation reveal the power which comes through obedience to the Covenant. The degradation of the Babylonian captivity, the ruin of Jerusalem were the result of disobedience. When the early Christians followed the covenant given by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount they became the light of the world. They united the divergent races and religions of the old Roman Empire into a brotherhood so wonderful that three hundred years after Jesus' crucifixion a man travelling from Persia to England would be greeted by the Christians, all along the way, as though he were a member of their own family.

(SOW - Star of the West, Star of the West - 8)

 

[Rationalt]

Here's the rest of the quote:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self within such a Court is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence."



If you read the previous quotation, it's very clear. and straightforward.

I read everything. The question asked by chesterton still remains. He is or he isn't ?. Or it is both.

That is a straightforward question, I believe .

 

[Rationalt]

And here is another one (from the same link).

The Greatest Name is the Name of Bahá'u'lláh. "Yá Bahá'u'l-Abhá" is an invocation meaning: "O Thou Glory of Glories!". "Alláh-u-Abhá" is a greeting which means: "God the All-Glorious". Both refer to Bahá'u'lláh. By Greatest Name is meant that Bahá'u'lláh has appeared in God's Greatest Name, in other words, that He is the supreme Manifestation of God.

 

[light upon light]

I read everything. The question asked by chesterton still remains. He is or he isn't ?. Or it is both.

That is a straightforward question, I believe .

Baha'u'llah Manifested God for human beings, as did Christ, Moses, Krishna and many others (most likely Quetzalcoatl and Deganawida in the Americas, for example).

God in God's essence is not limited to a body of flesh and blood, does not walk on the earth and eat and drink and be born from a woman and grow old and die.

So, in the sense of living and acting with the perfection, knowledge, power and authority of God, yes, they do.

In the sense of actually "incarnating" God into flesh and blood - no, they do not.

 

[light upon light]

By Greatest Name is meant that Bahá'u'lláh has appeared in God's Greatest Name, in other words, that He is the supreme Manifestation of God.

Yes, Manifestation of God, not God incarnate.

And (I would suggest) that Baha'u'llah is the "greatest" Manifestation because this is the time of the coming of age of the human race and its transformation from its spiritual childhood to its adulthood.

In another sense, all the Manifestations are equal, as Baha'u'llah wrote:

"These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” "

 

[Chesterton]

Here's the rest of the quote:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto."
...

If you read the previous quotation, it's very clear. and straightforward.

So if Baha’u’llah is speaking the truth here, he logically should have become a Christian, because Jesus said Jesus was God, and had to be speaking truth. No?

 

[Chesterton]

Not sure what you mean by the Sermon of the Mount but if you are referring to the Beatitudes I presume that along with the Lord's Prayer it is probably the best preserved of Jesus' sayings.

Hmm, perhaps you see where I'm going. By Sermon on the Mount I meant Sermon on the Mount, all of it.

Thanks for the question Chesterton!

Baha'is accept the spiritual message of the Gospel... which would certainly include the Sermon on the Mount. Years ago when I went on pilgrimage I could see the Galilee on the eastern horizon from Mount Carmel.. a lovely scene it was!

There was a Baha'i publication in the early years of the twentieth century called "Star of the West" in which Abdul-Baha is quoted as saying:

"... The Bible and the Gospel are most honoured in the estimation of all the Bahá'ís. One of the spiritual utterances of his holiness Christ in his sermon on the mount is to me preferable to all the writings of the philosophers. It is the religious duty of every Bahá'í to read and comprehend the meanings of the Old and New Testaments."

(SOW - Star of the West, Star of the West - 4)

Another excerpt from the same publication has:

The covenant with Moses, uttered from the Sinai of Light, opened the door to the Promised Land. Its first articles were the Ten Commandments. The sovereignty of David, the splendour of Solomon, the flowering of Israel into a strong nation reveal the power which comes through obedience to the Covenant. The degradation of the Babylonian captivity, the ruin of Jerusalem were the result of disobedience. When the early Christians followed the covenant given by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount they became the light of the world. They united the divergent races and religions of the old Roman Empire into a brotherhood so wonderful that three hundred years after Jesus' crucifixion a man travelling from Persia to England would be greeted by the Christians, all along the way, as though he were a member of their own family.

(SOW - Star of the West, Star of the West - 8)

So do Bahai's accept Jesus' words when he says that he himself is the actual Lord: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
...
"And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes."