Questions about the Baha'i

[light upon light]

I believe that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah.

Me too. A return in the "spirit and power of Elijah", not the same literal person and body.

 

[Arthra]

A few more days and we celebrate Naw-Rúz (The New Day) ... for Baha'is the year is 172! Most communities have a dinner and socialize... It ends the nineteen day fast.

Naw-Rúz occurs on the vernal equinox...

 

[Chesterton]

Let's look at it this way. The people of Israel were expecting the Messiah (the Christ). They thought He would be a military leader and a king who would lead them to victory over the Romans. They expected him to be named "Emmanuel" and to come from an unknown place.

When a humble Carpenter named Yeshua came to them from Nazareth who was, to outward appearances, devoid of power, who did not rule, did not have soldiers and did not overthrow the Romans militarily, some Jewish leaders deemed him a false claimant, and had him crucified by the Roman authorities.

God does not appear to us according to our desires and expectations.

That’s not an argument for Bahaullah or anything else. That God’s expression may be unexpected is almost to be expected. That it may take unexpected forms may be expected. But that God may contradict Himself (as with Muhammad, Bahaullah, Joseph Smith, et al.) is not.

Was John the Baptist the return of Elijah?

I already said no.

 

[Chesterton]

Sorry, a yes or no to what?

Whether you believe Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount.

I don't think it is inappropriate, but that's not what I think most references to Judgement Day are all about. Do you know how in John's Gospel Jesus trial the Judgement is seen as being present? For a Baha'i the Judgement Day refers to any day where the Manifestation appears. Whether we accept or reject him, is our Judgement.

So then we’re talking apples and oranges. You can think whatever you want about Judgement Day, but Christian theology has a particular idea about it. I only ask that you don’t misappropriate Christian beliefs for the sake of changing them as do the gnostics, Muslims, Ku Klux Klan, Mormons, Scientologists, etc.

I agree, I just don't think that necessarily coincides with what most Christians came to believe about him afterwards.

Some of the disciples weren’t sure who he was until near his death, some until after his resurrection, but all had decided within their lifetimes, and Christians since have believed the same as they did.

Yep. What we see there is pretty much the same thing we see in prophecies and beliefs regarding the Return of Elijah. The Jews believed Elijah would return because they believed he had never died. Yet, Jesus asserts that John the Baptist was Elijah notwithstanding the fact that John the Baptist comes into this world the usual way, through a woman.

Bottom line: It is as Reinhold Niebuhr put it: "The Messiah who comes is never the one expected"

If this is corruption then Christians are masters of it! There is nothing I have done in interpreting the Gospels that the New Testament doesn't do in connection with the Tanakh. Right, Loammi and Danny?

Then how do you interpret the resurrection? How do you interpret the Paraclete? I think that if we get into the nitty-gritty of the New Testament, you will, just like the Muslims, have to just deny, deny, deny.

 

[Chesterton]

We don't uphold the Nicean Creed if that's what you mean. But then it isn't in the Bible.

You don’t believe Jesus is the only Son of God.

And Baha'u'llah is not literally Jesus. But just as John fulfills the prophecies related to Elijah's return, so Baha'u'llah fulfills prophecies related to Christ's return.

What prophecies did Bahaullah fulfill?

 

[Chesterton]

Please cite them.

The one I referred to is cited. I’ve done it on paper before for my own benefit, but there are so many to pick out, I don’t feel like doing the work. He said he would judge men’s souls, he forgave sins committed against third parties, he performed miracles, he said “I AM” exist/existed before Abraham, etc., etc.

Are the Son and the Father the same, or different?

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." - Mark 13:32

I don't think you and I actually disagree at all about the divinity of Christ. I think we just have different ideas of what it means to "be God".

What do you think it means to be God?

The Jews of that time were expecting a literal return of Elijah, perhaps even in a fiery Chariot come down from the sky.

Now many Christians are waiting on a literal return of Jesus of Nazareth, flying down from the sky and shooting fire out of His eyes. Even though they were told to "watch" for His return and that He would come "like a thief in the night".

The book of Revelations must be understood in terms of symbolism and metaphor, just as the Old Testament promises of the Messiah conquering all the enemies of Israel needed to be understood symbolically in order to recognize Jesus as the promised Redeemer.

Jesus explains that here:

"For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist...

And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, who was prophecied. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 11:11-15

Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will understand that prophecies cannot all be taken literally.

That when we are told that Christ will return "in the clouds", with fire coming from His eyes, and feet of brass, those have symbolic meanings, not to be taken literally.

Clouds represent that which blocks and obscures the Sun of truth so we are veiled from it. Fire from the eyes means a powerful vision of truth that burns away superstitions and false beliefs. Feet of brass means feet that are impervious to turning away from the path of hardship which God will destine for Him.

So what does this have to do with Bahaullah? The symbolism is so vague it could apply to L. Ron Hubbard or lots of others.

 

[smaneck]

Whether you believe Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount.

I have no reason to doubt that he did.

So then we’re talking apples and oranges. You can think whatever you want about Judgement Day, but Christian theology has a particular idea about it.

I realize that. But I'm more interested in what Christ taught not what Christian theology says about it.

I only ask that you don’t misappropriate Christian beliefs

Were not appropriating Christian beliefs, but you don't get a monopoly over Christ, sorry.

Then how do you interpret the resurrection?

While Paul refers to the twelve and the five hundred witnessing the resurrected Jesus (the women apparently being left out) Paul's own account is really the only eyewitness account we have in the Bible. Paul makes a clear distinction between spiritual bodies and physical bodies which leaves me wondering just how 'physical' the resurrection was. But I do think there were clearly resurrection appearances. I think what I believe about the resurrected Christ is consistent with what Paul says in 1 Corinthians.

How do you interpret the Paraclete?

I believe it is a reference to God's continuing revelation.

 

[light upon light]

But that God may contradict Himself (as with Muhammad, Bahaullah, Joseph Smith, et al.) is not.

How does Baha'u'llah (which BTW means "the Glory of the Father") contradict Jesus?

I already said no.

Jesus said yes:

"And if ye will receive it, this [ie: John the Baptist] is Elijah, who was prophecied to come." - Matthew 11:14

 

[light upon light]

Some of the disciples weren’t sure who he was until near his death, some until after his resurrection, but all had decided within their lifetimes,

Can you cite book, chapter and verse?

If I want to argue something based on the Bible, I do that.

 

[Rationalt]

How does Baha'u'llah (which BTW means "the Glory of the Father") contradict Jesus?

If Jesus's words(as recorded in gospels and others) are to be believed Baha'ullah is an impostor. No more divine messages from anybody until end of the world is near.

 

[Rationalt]

Here is one more quote:Baha'u'llah's Seclusion in Kurdistan

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things verily I am God!"16

A has a relationship to B . But , A is not B.That is simple logic.

A can say he represents B. But A cannot say he became B. Unless A demonstrates some supernatural powers (Like miraculous healings .. for example).

 

[Rationalt]

I really don't know what to be made of this :

Apparently Baha'ullah wrote to Pope pius 1x

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

O POPE! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained… He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him ..

Did somebody see Baha'ullah on clouds .

O Supreme Pontiff! Incline thine ear unto that which the Fashioner of mouldering bones counselleth thee, as voiced by Him Who is His Most Great Name


The Great Name is appatently Baha'ullah .

 

[light upon light]

O POPE! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained… He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him ..

Did somebody see Baha'ullah on clouds .

"By the term “clouds” is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted: “As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others.” These “clouds” signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as “clouds.”

These are the “clouds” that cause the heavens of the knowledge and understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as He hath revealed: “On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the clouds.” Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary. " - Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan

 

[light upon light]

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things verily I am God!"16

A has a relationship to B . But , A is not B.That is simple logic.

A can say he represents B. But A cannot say he became B.

Baha'u'llah is not saying He is God. He is speaking for God, because God does not have vocal cords, or a pen to write with, but uses the Manifestations to communicate with us.

 

[light upon light]

If Jesus's words(as recorded in gospels and others) are to be believed Baha'ullah is an impostor. No more divine messages from anybody until end of the world is near.

Citation, please, so I can address what Jesus actually said.

Thx

 

[Chesterton]

I have no reason to doubt that he did.

I realize that. But I'm more interested in what Christ taught not what Christian theology says about it.

What Christ taught is what I referenced, his own words.

Were not appropriating Christian beliefs, but you don't get a monopoly over Christ, sorry.

It’s misappropriation when you incorporate the beliefs to bolster yours, while the beliefs are contradictory.

While Paul refers to the twelve and the five hundred witnessing the resurrected Jesus (the women apparently being left out) Paul's own account is really the only eyewitness account we have in the Bible. Paul makes a clear distinction between spiritual bodies and physical bodies which leaves me wondering just how 'physical' the resurrection was. But I do think there were clearly resurrection appearances. I think what I believe about the resurrected Christ is consistent with what Paul says in 1 Corinthians.

I believe it is a reference to God's continuing revelation.

Two events, two denials, as predicted. Yet you’ll continue to assert the isolated little tidbits that can be spun to make it look as if people like Muhammad and Bahaullah have a real connection with the Divine Christ.

 

[Chesterton]

How does Baha'u'llah (which BTW means "the Glory of the Father") contradict Jesus?

Jesus the Christ was the Anointed One, the only begotten Son of God. He said that many would come later and would say “I am He”, “I am the Messiah”, and he said don’t be deceived by them, don’t follow them.

Jesus said yes:

"And if ye will receive it, this [ie: John the Baptist] is Elijah, who was prophecied to come." - Matthew 11:14

If you accept that Jesus was speaking literally here, then you accept that he was speaking literally everywhere else?

Can you cite book, chapter and verse?

Cite for what exactly?

If I want to argue something based on the Bible, I do that.

Well you’re not off to a good start. You’ve given one Jesus quote as true, which invites me to throw many, many more back at you, and now you’ll have to accept those as true (which would undermine your argument) or be guilty of cherry-picking and denial.

 

[Chesterton]

If Jesus's words(as recorded in gospels and others) are to be believed Baha'ullah is an impostor. No more divine messages from anybody until end of the world is near.

Yeah, it's really pretty simple as that.

I really don't know what to be made of this :

Apparently Baha'ullah wrote to Pope pius 1x

He wrote to a lot of heads of state of nations too, just to proclaim who he was. Sort of a 19th century spammer.

 

[smaneck]

Chesterton,

You wrote:

TBut that God may contradict Himself (as with Muhammad, Bahaullah, Joseph Smith, et al.) is not.

But in response to the question of whether John the Baptist is the Return of Elijah you write:

I already said no.

Which contradicts Christ:

Matthew 11:

13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

 

[smaneck]

You don’t believe Jesus is the only Son of God.

Well as Jews here have already pointed out the Tanakh calls Israel God's son.

What prophecies did Bahaullah fulfill?

Feel free to read Abdu'l'-Baha's commentaries on Daniel and Revelation:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

Oh yeah, and Isaiah too.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66