Questions about the Baha'i

Chesterton said:

Jesus the Christ was the Anointed One, the only begotten Son of God. He said that many would come later and would say “I am He”, “I am the Messiah”, and he said don’t be deceived by them, don’t follow them.

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Cite the exact quote you have in mind, and I will address it.

Rationalt said:

Here is one more quote:Baha'u'llah's Seclusion in Kurdistan

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things verily I am God!"16

A has a relationship to B . But , A is not B.That is simple logic.

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Apparently you know nothing about mysticism. Baha'u'llah is talking about the relationship with God which exists when one annihilates the self (fana) in order to abide (baqa) in God. Baha'u'llah is talking about becoming one with God's will, not His essence.

But I know you don't deal well with paradoxes.

A can say he represents B. But A cannot say he became B. Unless A demonstrates some supernatural powers (Like miraculous healings .. for example).

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What do miraculous healings have to do with any of this?

Rationalt said:

If Jesus's words(as recorded in gospels and others) are to be believed Baha'ullah is an impostor. No more divine messages from anybody until end of the world is near.

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Jesus never said that, at least not in the Gospels. What he did say is that we have to distinguish true prophets from false ones by their fruits. Why say that if there are not going to be anymore prophets?

Anyhow, since when did you become concerned about what Jesus says?

Chesterton said:

What Christ taught is what I referenced, his own words.

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And I told you what I believed Jesus meant by whatever he said. You insist that Christians have understood this differently. So? You have your understanding and I have mine.

It’s misappropriation when you incorporate the beliefs to bolster yours, while the beliefs are contradictory.

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That sentence doesn't even make sense.

Two events, two denials, as predicted.

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Two different interpretations from what you believe. Horrors! Christians would never disagree about anything.

Chesterton said:

He wrote to a lot of heads of state of nations too, just to proclaim who he was. Sort of a 19th century spammer.

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Is that what people who preach the gospel are? Spammers?

Baha'u'llah wrote all the kings and rulers of the world because if they haven't been presented with the message they are not responsible for it.

light upon light said:

"By the term “clouds” is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men.

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That would be a very imaginative explanation if you disregard the whole sentence like the part "hath again come down from Heaven" .

Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted: “As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others.” These “clouds” signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as “clouds.”

These are the “clouds” that cause the heavens of the knowledge and understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as He hath revealed: “On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the clouds.” Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary. " - Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan

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So, On that day all this knowledge imparted by bahaiuallah will also be cloven asunder ?. That would be a day of reckoning, for sure.

All these prophets were simply wasting our time.Perhaps we should all wait for that day. I am off to getting some hot coco.

Chesterton said:

He wrote to a lot of heads of state of nations too, just to proclaim who he was. Sort of a 19th century spammer.

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Now, I understand.

That would be a very imaginative explanation if you disregard the whole sentence like the part "hath again come down from Heaven" .

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And you missed "even as He came down from it the first time. "

But of course Jesus was born of a woman.

You take things very literally.

Since there seems to be some interest in prophecies... I came across a wikipedia article on Baha'i prophecies interestingly an article in wikipedia has a summary of some of them...

Bahá'í prophecies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When discussing the "end of the world" mentioned above as in say Matthew 24:3 it's interesting that the Koine Greek has the word "aiwv" which suggests an age..."period of time, age" The New International version has:

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"


There were actually at least two movements in the early nineteenth century separated by language and geography that had no knowledge of each other...and were in entirely different cultural contexts..

One known as the Millerites from William Miller in the United States looked for the return of Christ about the year 1844..

The other known as the Shaykhi movement in Shia Islam.. after the teachings of Shaykh Ahmad-al Ahsai.. which expected the Return of the Twelfth Imam around the year 1260 AH...

Both these dates 1260 AH and 1844 happened to be in the same period of time.

Many of the early Babis or followers of the Bab had been students of Shaykh Ahmad and his successor Siyyid Kazim.

All prophets are teachers. Not all teachers are prophets. Moses (ʿalayhi as-salām) was a prophet; so was Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām); so was Muhammed (these are but a few of many, of course). For me, Muhammed (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was the last of the prophets.

Bahá'u'lláh is one of the teachers (and some, of course, say that he is more than this.). The question to answer is why would Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) use him for this purpose? Perhaps it is to win the hearts of those who remain unconvinced by the prophets; or who cannot - for whatever reason - commit to those religions that regard these prophets as their own.

The fact remains that Bahá'u'lláh has brought people closer to the Beloved than might otherwise have been the case. And that alone is enough.

These are my opinions and, as such, may safely be rejected by others; without loss to themselves, or complaint from me.

That the soul can be brought into mystical union with the Beloved has always been accepted by those for whom He is a living reality, rather than an abstract concept.

Since I’ve a fondness for the Dominicans, have a look at this:

‘I have a capacity in my soul for taking in God entirely. I am as sure as I live that nothing is so near to me as God. God is nearer to me than I am to myself; my existence depends on the nearness and presence of God.

‘The man who abides in the will of God wills nothing else than what God is, and what He wills. If he were ill he would not wish to be well. If he really abides in God's will, all pain is to him a joy, all complication, simple: yea, even the pains of hell would be a joy to him. He is free and gone out from himself, and from all that he receives, he must be free. If my eye is to discern colour, it must itself be free from all colour. The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love.

‘The soul has by nature two capacities. The one is intelligence, which may comprehend the Holy Trinity with all its works and be contained by It as water is by a vessel. When the vessel is full, it has enclosed all that is contained in it, and is united with that which it has enclosed, and of which it is full. Thus intelligence becomes one with that which it has understood and comprehended. It is united therewith by grace, as the Son is one with the Father.

‘The second capacity is Will. That is a nobler one, and its essential characteristic is to plunge into the Unknown which is God. There the Will lays hold of God in a mysterious manner, and the Unknown God imparts His impress to the Will. The Will draws thought and all the powers of the soul after it in its train, so that the soul becomes one with God by grace.

‘Various teachers have praised love greatly, as St Paul does, when he saith, “to whatever height I may attain, if I have not love, I am nothing.” But I set sanctification even above love; in the first place because the best thing in love is that it compels me to love God. Now it is a greater thing that I compel God to come to me, than that I compel myself to go to God. Sanctification compels God to come to me, and I prove this as follows:--

‘Everything settles in its own appropriate place; now God's proper place is that of oneness and holiness; these come from sanctification; therefore God must of necessity give Himself to a sanctified heart.

‘The philosopher Avicenna says, “The spirit which is truly sanctified attains to so lofty a degree that all which it sees is real, all which it desires is granted, and in all which it commands, it is obeyed.” When the free spirit is established in true sanctification, it draws God to itself, and were it placed beyond the reach of contingencies, it would assume the properties of God. But God cannot part with those to anyone; all that He can do for the sanctified spirit is to impart Himself to it. The man who is wholly sanctified is so drawn towards the Eternal, that no transitory thing may move him, no corporeal thing affect him, no earthly thing attract him. This was the meaning of St Paul when he said, “I live; yet not I; Christ liveth in me.”’

(Taken from: ‘Meister Eckhart’s Sermons’; translated by Claud Field).

Also taken from the Sermons:

‘All that may be said of the pains of hell is true. St Dionysius saith, “To be separated from God is hell, and the sight of God's countenance is heaven.”’

Have a great weekend!

Rationalt said:

That would be a very imaginative explanation if you disregard the whole sentence like the part "hath again come down from Heaven" .

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Here you go:

"And now, with reference to His words: “And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” . . By this is meant that the divine Beauty will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of the human temple. The term “heaven” denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. . . This is what is meant by the words: “coming in the clouds of heaven.”

light upon light said:

And you missed "even as He came down from it the first time. "

But of course Jesus was born of a woman.

You take things very literally.

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No, I am not talking about jesus.

Now, tell me who came down for the first time and how that is related to Baha'ullah ?. Also give your justification when and how bahais take things literally .

Arthra said:

Since there seems to be some interest in prophecies... I came across a wikipedia article on Baha'i prophecies interestingly an article in wikipedia has a summary of some of them...

Bahá'í prophecies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When discussing the "end of the world" mentioned above as in say Matthew 24:3 it's interesting that the Koine Greek has the word "aiwv" which suggests an age..."period of time, age" The New International version has:

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"


There were actually at least two movements in the early nineteenth century separated by language and geography that had no knowledge of each other...and were in entirely different cultural contexts..

One known as the Millerites from William Miller in the United States looked for the return of Christ about the year 1844..

The other known as the Shaykhi movement in Shia Islam.. after the teachings of Shaykh Ahmad-al Ahsai.. which expected the Return of the Twelfth Imam around the year 1260 AH...

Both these dates 1260 AH and 1844 happened to be in the same period of time.

Many of the early Babis or followers of the Bab had been students of Shaykh Ahmad and his successor Siyyid Kazim.

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Bahauallah predicted a particular turkey sultan will be overthrown and it happened after about 10 years.It is hard to think it as prophecy cause most of the turkey rulers lost their power at that time.It will be an intelligent deduction and nothing more.

If he gave some approximate date or even month of a particular year it would be an impressive prophecy.

Rationalt said:

No, I am not talking about jesus.

Now, tell me who came down for the first time and how that is related to Baha'ullah ?

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Christ came down from Heaven the first time as a baby born of a woman.

That is how He returned, in authority, spirit and power, in Baha'u'llah.

Also give your justification when and how bahais take things literally

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Baha'is don't all agree about exactly when to take things literally and when to take them symbolically. We don't all march in lockstep in how we interpret things. But some things we do all agree on.

Here is an example of something that all Baha'is do agree is to be taken literally, because of an explicit command to do so:

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. " - Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas

Chesterton said:

So then we’re talking apples and oranges. You can think whatever you want about Judgement Day, but Christian theology has a particular idea about it. I only ask that you don’t misappropriate Christian beliefs for the sake of changing them as do the gnostics, Muslims, Ku Klux Klan, Mormons, Scientologists, etc.

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Chesterton, Baha'is are not about trying to change Christian beliefs. Your beliefs are yours and it's not like there's no recognition that Christian theology has a particular idea about Judgement Day. We don't claim to be Christians.

That said, the parallel between our divergent views about Judgement Day and say, the difference between Christian ideas about the Messiah and Jewish ones is about as exact as it gets.

Are Christians "misappropriating Jewish beliefs for the sake of changing them" because they believe Jesus is the Messiah looked for in Jewish Scriptures?

I happen to think not. I think Christians simply read the same texts Jews do and come to honest differences about their meaning.

We have as much moral right to look at your Scriptures (which we believe to be true) and understand them as we do, as Christians have a moral right to look at the Tenach (which they believe to be true) and understand it as they do.

If you don't wish us to form our own understandings, then in all fairness you would have to stop believing Jesus is the Messiah, and several other divergent beliefs you get from the Tenach that do not sync with Jewish theology.

If you happen to believe our understanding is wrong, obviously everyone needs to investigate what is true and not follow anyone blindly. I am sure not going to begrudge anyone that. lol not like it would be my place to anyway, since it's not like I'm God or anything.

Rationalt said:

Bahauallah predicted a particular turkey sultan will be overthrown and it happened after about 10 years.It is hard to think it as prophecy cause most of the turkey rulers lost their power at that time.It will be an intelligent deduction and nothing more.

If he gave some approximate date or even month of a particular year it would be an impressive prophecy.

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Do you have a link to this prophecy, its prediction date and the Sultan in question?

smaneck said:

Well as Jews here have already pointed out the Tanakh calls Israel God's son.



Feel free to read Abdu'l'-Baha's commentaries on Daniel and Revelation:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

Oh yeah, and Isaiah too.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66

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I read all of those. Thanks.

Supreme said:

Do you have a link to this prophecy, its prediction date and the Sultan in question?

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Thanks for your reference Supreme..

I'll`provide the site I posted earlier and the details were there..such as

Sultan Abdu'l-Aziz[edit]

Bahá'u'lláh in the Súriy-i-Ra'ís and the Lawh-i-Fu'ád predicts that Sultan Abdu'l-Aziz will lose control of the Ottoman Empire.[3] Writing to `Alí Páshá, the Ottoman Prime Minister, Bahá'u'lláh wrote:

"The day is approaching when the Land of Mystery (Adrianople) and what is beside it shall be changed, and shall pass out of the hands of the King, and commotions shall appear, and the voice of lamentation shall be raised, and the evidences of mischief shall be revealed on all sides, and confusion shall spread by reason of that which hath befallen these captives at the hands of the hosts of oppression."

(Bahá'u'lláh, Súriy-i-Ra’ís, August 1868)

Read more at:

Bahá'í prophecies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The details are provided.

The Sultans at the time were still a force to be reckoned with... They had the power of life and death and through their commissions could exile people... this is how Baha'u'llah was imprisoned in the prison fortress of Akka...

- Art

light upon light said:

Christ came down from Heaven the first time as a baby born of a woman.

That is how He returned, in authority, spirit and power, in Baha'u'llah.

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Can you work up some basis for this assertion ?.When you talk about Jesus, a biblical person, it is reasonable to expect the claimant to justify his position basing upon biblical text.It is another matter whether such a claim is convincing or not.


I am not much bothered about your faith or how you define or practice your faith since you people,in general, don't bother others much.Only when you make claims about other faiths scrutiny falls on your faith.

Baha'is don't all agree about exactly when to take things literally and when to take them symbolically. We don't all march in lockstep in how we interpret things. But some things we do all agree on.

Here is an example of something that all Baha'is do agree is to be taken literally, because of an explicit command to do so:

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. " - Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas

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Supreme said:

Do you have a link to this prophecy, its prediction date and the Sultan in question?

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It is in the wikipedia link.He also professed loyalty to said sultan(‘Abdu’l-‘Azíz).