Questions about souls and conception

Meowzltov · Aug 12, 2017

I have a few questions about souls.

Given that we believe a child receives their soul upon conception....

Sometimes a zygote splits and becomes two different cells, each forming two separate children: identical twins. If the zygote originally receives one soul at conception, what happens when it splits? Does the soul split?
Sometimes two embryos en utero which would normally form fraternal twins, will combine en utero and form one child with two sets of DNA, a chimera. Given that originally these embryos originally had two souls when conceived, what happens when the embryos combine into one person? Do the souls also combine? Or does one soul go back to heaven?
During the sad process of en vitro fertilization, many embryos are left over that are never implanted, and end up frozen. While frozen, what happens to the souls? Are they just in stasis like someone in a coma?

Sketcher · Aug 12, 2017

Not Catholic here, but I haven't heard of an exact point in fetal development where Catholics claim that a soul is given. Jews have a tradition of 40 days, then a soul is given, but I haven't heard that this is derived from any passage of Scripture. What I have heard from Catholics is that they don't know when the soul is given, so it is best to err on the side of caution/life. This is a belief that I share.

Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 · Aug 12, 2017

God can't give soul which is imperfect to a baby, because by definition God can only do what is good and perfect , many times Jesus said himself that we need to be born again , because we are born spiritually dead . I have to conclude that , when sperm gets inside of female egg there is short amount of time where you can observe egg lighting like lightbulb , i think that this is the time when soul is given from man to his child .

~Anastasia~ · Aug 12, 2017

Open Heart said:
I have a few questions about souls.

Given that we believe a child receives their soul upon conception....

Sometimes a zygote splits and becomes two different cells, each forming two separate children: identical twins. If the zygote originally receives one soul at conception, what happens when it splits? Does the soul split?

Sometimes two embryos en utero which would normally form fraternal twins, will combine en utero and form one child with two sets of DNA, a chimera. Given that originally these embryos originally had two souls when conceived, what happens when the embryos combine into one person? Do the souls also combine? Or does one soul go back to heaven?

During the sad process of en vitro fertilization, many embryos are left over that are never implanted, and end up frozen. While frozen, what happens to the souls? Are they just in stasis like someone in a coma?

Just subscribing. I don't have answers. I wouldn't even think to ask the question. This might be another area where "Mystery" makes sense.

If the soul is not given until a certain (even very early) stage of development, that would solve the problems though. I don't know if we CAN know, but that would be preferable for those ivf embryos not used.

Hank77 · Aug 12, 2017

Open Heart said:
Sometimes a zygote splits and becomes two different cells, each forming two separate children: identical twins. If the zygote originally receives one soul at conception, what happens when it splits? Does the soul split?

What about identical triplets and quadruplets?

Michie · Aug 12, 2017

It's an interesting question but I certainly think each child has their very own soul. It not like twins have 50% and so on. God is the Creator after all. We see through a mirror darkly until then. Not a satisfying contribution but I really don't think anyone has the answer we want now. Because we are not God and we practice this thing called faith which guides us. We work under the conditions of faith.

Davidnic · Aug 12, 2017

Although most Catholic theologians argue for immediate ensoulment, we do not remove it from the realm of the possible that God can hold the soul in individual situations until after a split the He knows will happen. It is in the realm of mystery. He does it as He does and it is beyond us. What is taught is that because we do not know all of it we must treat the unborn at all stages from conception forward as a person.

Here are some things on ensoulment

Do Embryos Have Souls?

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4295

catholic ensoulment | Tim Staples

Sarah G van G · Aug 12, 2017

As God is omniscient He knows when an embryo isn't going to make it to whatever stage of development, right?

Michie · Aug 12, 2017

An interesting article in light of the topic.

Human Embryos are Made in the Image and Likeness of God

Davidnic · Aug 12, 2017

Chosen_and_blessed said:
As God is omniscient He knows when an embryo isn't going to make it to whatever stage of development, right?

True but we would hold even an unborn who only lasts briefly still has a soul. Or at least all things would point to that and theology does not draw a difference in the Image of God in a life that lasts seconds or over a century.

Davidnic · Aug 12, 2017

Sometimes in the west we try to define mystery too much. To the questions in the OP we could provide speculation but even the Latin disposition toward definition ceases and we kneel before mystery. We know the Church teaches to act as if the Image of God is present. Beyond that we can speculate or make well founded views...but we must bow at a point to He who knows all.

Rhamiel · Aug 12, 2017

identical twins start out with two souls even as a single zygote

when two zygotes fuse together one dies and the other lives, the dead one either goes to heaven or limbo of the infants

frozen zygotes are like coma people

AvilaSurfer · Aug 12, 2017

God figures it out.

Meowzltov · Aug 12, 2017

Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 said:
God can't give soul which is imperfect to a baby, because by definition God can only do what is good and perfect , many times Jesus said himself that we need to be born again , because we are born spiritually dead . I have to conclude that , when sperm gets inside of female egg there is short amount of time where you can observe egg lighting like lightbulb , i think that this is the time when soul is given from man to his child .

This doesn't answer any of my questions, though.

Meowzltov · Aug 12, 2017

Rhamiel said:
identical twins start out with two souls even as a single zygote

when two zygotes fuse together one dies and the other lives, the dead one either goes to heaven or limbo of the infants

frozen zygotes are like coma people

Thank you. These are good answers. I will be thinking about what you have said.

Meowzltov · Aug 12, 2017

Davidnic said:
Although most Catholic theologians argue for immediate ensoulment, we do not remove it from the realm of the possible that God can hold the soul in individual situations until after a split the He knows will happen. It is in the realm of mystery. He does it as He does and it is beyond us. What is taught is that because we do not know all of it we must treat the unborn at all stages from conception forward as a person.

Here are some things on ensoulment

Do Embryos Have Souls?

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4295

catholic ensoulment | Tim Staples

thank you Davidnik. Good food for thought.

LivingWordUnity · Aug 12, 2017

Right after the Incarnation, there was the following reaction to it (emphasis added):

“And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.'” - Lk 1:41-45

At that time, St. Elizabeth was about six months into her pregnancy, and the Blessed Virgin Mary, by the Holy Spirit, had just prior to conceived Jesus in her womb.

So in the Gospel according to St. Luke, the personhood of the baby during a pregnancy is recognized at six months and also at the beginning of embryonic development.

MikeK · Aug 12, 2017

Rhamiel said:
identical twins start out with two souls even as a single zygote

That is certainly a possibility, but it is not a teaching of the Church and may well be false. Zygotes may or may not have souls.

MoonlessNight · Aug 13, 2017

From a scholastic point of view, any living organism must have a soul because the soul is the first principle of life and the form of the body. But there the question becomes when a soul becomes a rational soul, since all that life requires is a vegetative soul, and even basic thought only requires an animal soul. If I recall correctly there were scholastic theories of embryonic development that stated that the soul would develop over time to gain the powers of the higher form of soul, but would not have the immediately.

I don't see any significant philosophical problems in having a single animal soul in a zygote that later splits, because it is the case generally that something with a single form can be turned into a set of things with distinct forms. For example, a tree has a unified form due to it being one tree, but if it is chopped down its lumber could be turned into a dining set of a table and four chairs, each with their own unique form. It's only with the intellectual soul that we have a true since of an individual person, and it's only because of the powers of an intellectual soul that human souls persist beyond death. So one answer for the issue of a zygote splitting would be that the intellectual soul is granted on the split, but before that only the lesser powers of the soul were present.

Of course, this is just me playing around with some philosophical ideas. It shouldn't be taken as necessarily correct (in fact, I'm not sure that I agree that the above is the correct position; I'd almost lean towards saying that it isn't) and certainly shouldn't be taken as the Church's official position. It's just spitballing some ideas, as they say.

Meowzltov · Aug 14, 2017

LivingWordUnity said:
So in the Gospel according to St. Luke, the personhood of the baby during a pregnancy is recognized at six months and also at the beginning of embryonic development.

I agree. How does this answer my questions?

Questions about souls and conception

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