Questions about Predestination

Reformationist

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This is the same judgment of your type of interpretation in all the Church Fathers. Yes, all the guys who formulation Orthodox Christology and the Trinity. I don't assume your view is correct.

Assume my view, that Reformed Theology mirrors Manicheaism, Origenism and other dualist religions and heresies, and that I don't think God would like to be held responsible for the absolute predestination of everything, including the destruction of most of the human race, before they even existed.

How dare you?!! (I'm not serious, but you know what I mean)

I understand what you are saying, but you asked specifically about how God could be "just" if He "predestined the fate of some of His image-bearers to eternal torment before they could choose for themselves." This presupposes a number of things, none of which are God centered, biblical, or endorsed by reformed theologians. My response addressed the foundational problem with your approach, i.e., that anything we could say could impugn God's holiness. It is simply an ungodly way to approach the subject.

As I said, for the sake of argument, assume that God did, in fact, predestine some to condemnation. If that be the case, whether you believe He truly did so or not, would God be unjust for doing so? Is your approach to this issue going to render God unjust unless He does things according to what you, the creation, deem just?

You see Ignatios, this goes to the heart of the issue, for who amongst us would ever embrace a theology that rendered God unjust? You approach the reformed explanation of predestination with the assumption that if they are right, God is unjust. Doesn't leave much doubt in the minds of any reformed Christian as to whether you're willing to consider their position on its biblical merits.
 
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Ignatios

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I understand what you are saying, but you asked specifically about how God could be "just" if He "predestined the fate of some of His image-bearers to eternal torment before they could choose for themselves." This presupposes a number of things, none of which are God centered, biblical, or endorsed by reformed theologians. My response addressed the foundational problem with your approach, i.e., that anything we could say could impugn God's holiness. It is simply an ungodly way to approach the subject.

As I said, for the sake of argument, assume that God did, in fact, predestine some to condemnation. If that be the case, whether you believe He truly did so or not, would God be unjust for doing so? Is your approach to this issue going to render God unjust unless He does things according to what you, the creation, deem just?

You see Ignatios, this goes to the heart of the issue, for who amongst us would ever embrace a theology that rendered God unjust? You approach the reformed explanation of predestination with the assumption that if they are right, God is unjust. Doesn't leave much doubt in the minds of any reformed Christian as to whether you're willing to consider their position on its biblical merits.

This has been the central point I have raised against those who have disagreed with the Reformed faith. In other words, "who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?'”

My objections don't contain presuppositions that aren't God centered, although I am an unworthy sinner. I'll explain why in a bit. The Orthodox understanding of several false Western conceptions of God is in accordance with the Tradition of the Apostles. I mean no offense, but the charge of being "unbiblical" doesn't come with much force from a Protestant among Protestants, where there are thousands of different interpretations on everything concerning the faith, all in the name of finding the truth by sola scriptura. To separate the authority of interpretation outside the Tradition of the Apostles does nothing but make Christians splinter off into thousands of strange, contradictory teachings. I don't believe that anything we could say could impugn God's holiness. This issue is just one issue in which the Reformed contradict God's holiness. I'm not going to accept your attempt to shift the burden of proof onto me. Moving on...

If God did predestine most people to condemnation, it would be reasonable to assume that he also wouldn't give revelation of the character recorded in Holy Scripture. He wouldn't love to a thousand generations of those who are faithful to him. He wouldn't be longsuffering to Israel or to his Church. He wouldn't have sent his Son to die on behalf of sinners because it would be obvious that he wanted most of them to be tortured for eternity. It would be reasonable to assume that he wouldn't mind that all of us be condemned forever. The criteria of God's justice isn't my personal preference. The criteria of God's justice according to which we are to recognize - not judge - him is his own revelation. None of God's revelation to man has shown us that he contradicts his revealed mercy at every turn by staying intimately alongside, and within, most men in order to ensure that, according to his plan, they go to hell when they die. The Calvinist understanding of God, following Papist philosophy, is not recognizable by biblical standards, which is the understanding of Church Tradition.

You have embraced a theology that doesn't so much as render God unjust, as subsume all his attributes and persons into his essence, thereby binding him to necessity. The way I showed the Calvinist understanding of God to be that of an unjust God is by contrasting the traditional Christian view with that of the Reformed.

I've considered the Reformed position on its biblical merits in the Continental Reformers, the English Reformers, the Scottish Presbyterians, and most American Reformers of various different schools of thought. Having been an avid Calvinist for quite some time, I think I've gained a sufficient understanding of their beliefs. In the last resort, when all the arguments fail, it all boils down to something like, "don't question God's will." No matter how insane it is as presented. This is not an argument, nor is it a witness to revelation. It's the last resort.
 
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Reformationist

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I mean no offense, but the charge of being "unbiblical" doesn't come with much force from a Protestant among Protestants, where there are thousands of different interpretations on everything concerning the faith, all in the name of finding the truth by sola scriptura.

This is a sad, sad approach to God's Word. While I am well aware that there are a myriad of different understandings of Scripture, all that means is that people are fallible. It doesn't mean that all evangelical interpretations are false simply because they are not united. That kind of reasoning finds its home in the mindset of those that think their denomination's unity means that their view must certainly be accurate. All it says to me is that you guys accept the teachings of fallible councils without question. I've seen it all before, many times. I have discussions with RC and EO quite often and whenever I show explicit areas that teach things completely contrary to what their denomination professes to be true, they deny the very possibility that I can be right simply because they don't allow for the possibility that they could be wrong. The Apostles themselves, whose authority we all recognize, didn't berate believers for searching the Scriptures to determine whether what they were saying was true. They didn't undermine their congregation for reading Scripture for themselves and using it to determine whether these people were teaching the truth of God. So far as I know, the Apostles never said, "None of you have the authority to question whether I'm right because you guys often disagree amongst yourselves on Scripture." Yet, that is exactly what you and your Roman compatriots regularly do. You presume that your authority, or rather the authority of your church officials, is beyond reproach and us divided Protestants would do well to learn our place and not question the understanding of the EO or the RC and just pietously bow down and accept it.

I don't believe that anything we could say could impugn God's holiness.

I am well aware that nothing we can say can impugn God's holiness. What I referred to was the manner in which you phrase the question. You asked "How is God just when..." That is the problem. God is just because God is just, no matter whose right, whose wrong, who doesn't understand, whatever, it makes no difference. As I said, you phrase the question to imply that God's holiness would be suspect if those who believe in the reformed view of predestination are correct. I don't begrudge you your questions about how such a view could be true, but discussing it in light of the holiness of God is inappropriate.

This issue is just one issue in which the Reformed contradict God's holiness.

And here is further proof, if any was needed, that you equate the holiness of God with whether or not you agree with what He does. While I believe what I believe about God's role in redemptive history, if it turns out I'm wrong, I would never presume that the views that opposed mine made God unholy. God is holy whether I understand or agree with Him or not. You, apparently, subjegate the holiness of God to the authority of your denomination, which is pitiful.

I'm not going to accept your attempt to shift the burden of proof onto me.

What attempt? You've done well up to this point. Don't ruin your mature posting style by making things up.

If God did predestine most people to condemnation, it would be reasonable to assume that he also wouldn't give revelation of the character recorded in Holy Scripture.

First, who said anything about "most" and secondly, what "character?" :scratch:

He wouldn't love to a thousand generations of those who are faithful to him. He wouldn't be longsuffering to Israel or to his Church.

It may be the inarticulate way you express the above but, I don't see how either of those things has anything to do with whatever point your trying to make. God's love for His elect, who are the only objects of His love, is a saving love. There is no one that God loves that God does not ultimately save. You're going to have to restate, hopefully in a more understandable way, whatever it is you're trying to relay above because I am a bit confused by it.

He wouldn't have sent his Son to die on behalf of sinners because it would be obvious that he wanted most of them to be tortured for eternity.

Every single person for whom Christ died will be redeemed. Your position is unbiblical and moot. No one, not a single person, the Lord intends to save are ever condemned.

It would be reasonable to assume that he wouldn't mind that all of us be condemned forever.

Again, this makes no sense nor do I see what point you're trying to make.

The criteria of God's justice isn't my personal preference. The criteria of God's justice according to which we are to recognize - not judge - him is his own revelation.

Great. I'm all for that. Where do we find His revelation?

None of God's revelation to man has shown us that he contradicts his revealed mercy at every turn by staying intimately alongside, and within, most men in order to ensure that, according to his plan, they go to hell when they die.

Never said that He does anything of the sort. Listen Ignatios, if you want to argue against my position then argue against my position. Please refrain from these ridiculous caricatures of my views which reveal nothing more than that you are either ignorant of the reformed view or too immature to address it in any productive manner.

The Calvinist understanding of God, following Papist philosophy, is not recognizable by biblical standards, which is the understanding of Church Tradition.

This is what I dislike most about discussions with members of your denomination. You guys use a whole lot of words to say nothing. Whose biblical standards? Yours? Your denominations? Your denomination wouldn't know the truth of Scriptures if Christ Himself laid the Word of God upside of their head. What is the point of the above? Is it just to let me know that you disagree with the tenets of Calvinism? Wow. Not exactly a newsflash. Seriously, why waste our time with things of no consequence?

You have embraced a theology that doesn't so much as render God unjust, as subsume all his attributes and persons into his essence, thereby binding him to necessity. The way I showed the Calvinist understanding of God to be that of an unjust God is by contrasting the traditional Christian view with that of the Reformed.

Again, stop trying to sound scholarly. It is coming off as nothing so much as pointless ramblings. You've shown nothing more than that you disagree with the Calvinist position. Again, not exactly a news flash. Speaking with members of your denomination about biblical issues is like pulling teeth. It's like you guys aren't even talking about anything even closely related to Scripture. I feel like I'm completely wasting my time discussing these issues with you as I don't even think you are espousing anything resembling a Christian viewpoint, much less the "traditional Christian view."

I've considered the Reformed position on its biblical merits in the Continental Reformers, the English Reformers, the Scottish Presbyterians, and most American Reformers of various different schools of thought. Having been an avid Calvinist for quite some time, I think I've gained a sufficient understanding of their beliefs. In the last resort, when all the arguments fail, it all boils down to something like, "don't question God's will."

I've never once made such an argument and, honestly, if you were ever an "avid Calvinist," you wouldn't characterize Calvinism the way you do, which shows nothing so much as your complete failure to understand reformed theology. I recognize God's divine perrogative because I recognize that God is God. Your denomination frustratingly seems to view Him as nothing so much as an impotent teddy bear that wants nothing more than to be my buddy. While such a judgment is, I'm sure, a bit unfair, I render it primarily because your denomination's doctrines seem so unusual that I often wonder if they have a relationship to Scripture. I honestly fail to see how any of you even understand it.

I think I need to study up on what you guys believe and the basis for your positions. Any suggestions on resources, preferably web resources?
 
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heymikey80

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thanks for the honest reply. i have the awful feeling that God's idea of loving kindness must be different from mine. the implications of that are horrendous. if God's harshness is kindness, like letting people go to hell is kind, then my concept of kindness i thought i got from the bible, cant be applied to God.
I think it's a great question, and one that bears looking into carefully. Because ... what if our idea of kindness is actually unloving? What if our approach to "acceptance", to "live and let live" is a kind of killing by spiritual separatism?

That's what I see in God's answer here. He makes efforts in patience toward an undeserving people He created, who flout His every move.
why would he necessarily look after me in the sense that i want to be looked after, if hes like that?
No.
how can i love a God i see as cruel? should i myself start to think cruel is kind?
No, but I would begin to question whether my idea of kindness is cruel.
even if the bible is not correct, and the God of the bible is not the true God, then the God we have must be very cruel, and not likely to let everyone go to heaven. because he doesnt seem to mind that people and animals suffer horribly. well he doesnt mind enough to have set things up differently.
And it would intrigue me to look more carefully into this, to determine whether there is really something more cruel than what He has created.
anyway these are the troubling thoughts that have come to me over the last few months. when i pick up the bible and flick through for somewhere to start reading, i just see horrible rantings of God about what hes going to do to people, and i quickly shut the book and put it back on the shelf. i've been a christian for 20 years now. i never thought i would come to this state of mind. it doesnt leave much.
It's really a question of whether your God is going to agree with you that continuous convenience and pleasance and lack of pain and even being done evil is more important than anything else.

If it is, yes, the God of the Bible will never put these things above all.

Something's more important than that to Him.
 
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BenjaminRandall

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Nice to see the systematics discussion.

Ignatios, if I read correctly (some of this is beyond my ken, and I've only skimread the thread), you have a universalist soteriology? People will be saved in Christ even if they don't repent and believe?

Does your tradition really teach this? Is it rooted in a traditional interpretation of Scripture?
 
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pippa

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I think it's a great question, and one that bears looking into carefully. Because ... what if our idea of kindness is actually unloving? What if our approach to "acceptance", to "live and let live" is a kind of killing by spiritual separatism?

That's what I see in God's answer here. He makes efforts in patience toward an undeserving people He created, who flout His every move.

No.

No, but I would begin to question whether my idea of kindness is cruel.

And it would intrigue me to look more carefully into this, to determine whether there is really something more cruel than what He has created.

It's really a question of whether your God is going to agree with you that continuous convenience and pleasance and lack of pain and even being done evil is more important than anything else.

If it is, yes, the God of the Bible will never put these things above all.

Something's more important than that to Him.
just a couple of comments. you said..."And it would intrigue me to look more carefully into this, to determine whether there is really something more cruel than what He has created."

i say, it would have been less cruel to have not created at all. he didnt have to create.

you said....."No, but I would begin to question whether my idea of kindness is cruel"
hope humans dont start applying the kind of 'kindness' God bestows, then.

you say "It's really a question of whether your God is going to agree with you that continuous convenience and pleasance and lack of pain and even being done evil is more important than anything else".

actually it was the other way around, i agreed with God that heaven would be the perfect place. like you say, a place where there is continuous pleasance, lack of pain and lack of evil. can you blame me for not understanding why God would create the world knowing how it would end up, when heaven is his standard? isnt it?

pippa
 
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heymikey80

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just a couple of comments. you said..."And it would intrigue me to look more carefully into this, to determine whether there is really something more cruel than what He has created."

i say, it would have been less cruel to have not created at all. he didnt have to create.
On the other hand, do you know why He created? It may well have been more cruel not to create. One motive can't be compared with another motive if you don't know the other motive.
you said....."No, but I would begin to question whether my idea of kindness is cruel"
hope humans dont start applying the kind of 'kindness' God bestows, then.
I'm sorry, there are two assumptions projected through your answer here, neither of which make sense to me.

I point you back to my point in the first question.

But I also point out, God's responsibility does not extend in the same way to the motives of every limited action of every limited creature. Put it this way: God sees completely the implications of every motive, thought, and action in His creation. His actions are fully-informed, infinitely-informed, and based on that. To identify the limited motives of creatures as God's, that doesn't result in a realistic accusation against Him. Y'can't say, "Well this lion is vicious, therefore God is vicious."

I'd point out a number of theological books that make sense of this, but it'd take a much more careful look at philosophy, ethics and responsibility to catch this point. The past hundred years have explicitly attempted to destroy the basis for all three. The culture you grew up in has presupposed its success in all three areas. Meanwhile some ethical philosophers of the past twenty years have quite an argument that it's failed: both in its attempt and its assumptions.

If we don't start with our failings, it stands to reason that we will fail to recognize the truth.
you say "It's really a question of whether your God is going to agree with you that continuous convenience and pleasance and lack of pain and even being done evil is more important than anything else".

actually it was the other way around, i agreed with God that heaven would be the perfect place. like you say, a place where there is continuous pleasance, lack of pain and lack of evil. can you blame me for not understanding why God would create the world knowing how it would end up, when heaven is his standard? isnt it?
If that were what heaven were, and all heaven were, I would not want it. How about you?

On top of that I don't think the point of the Tribulation and Last Judgment is simply some last horrific doorway into eternal convenience either.

It's correction. It's to make things right -- far more right than simply wiping out pain and evil -- for if that were the case there would be universal salvation and there would be no Hell. Yes, there is actually removal of pain and evil. There are some things that are amazingly relieving about eternal life. But no, I haven't read continuous pleasance into it. I see it as a different challenge, not as the relief of all challenge.

And I don't normally call that heaven, either. From what I've read, there are "a new heaven and a new earth." It's a new ball game, with eternal lives remade to act according to their new wills. They now see God's glory, justice, and power to redeem -- firsthand.
 
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heymikey80

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i find acknowledging God isnt bound in time but works within time clarifies the concept of predestination.

or is this thinking unbibical?
I don't find God's being unbound by time to be unbiblical, and as far as it's informative I appreciate it.

Still there are depths of meaning to the word "predestination" that aren't addressed by this concept. Predestination isn't "destination" or "exdestination". It really does refer to a designation or appointment of someone beforehand, not simply "outside time" or "at the time but known beforehand."

But yes, I actually use the imagery of God outside time a whole lot. And it does inform the idea of predestination.
 
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UMP

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nothing could be more cruel than hell.

Have you ever considered that those who go to hell deserve to go to hell? Remember, the JUST judge that will send the devil and his angels to an everlasting hell is Jesus Christ, God himself, the perfect Holy one who "cannot lie" and who has no sin.
Now you may ask, how can God find an individual guilty, who He formed out of dust, who descends from fallen ruined sinful parents, and who is incapable, on his own to please God or save himself ?
Your question was anticipated by the Holy Spirit in forming Romans 9:
"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"


Rom. 9:19. "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" Is not this the very objection which is urged today? The force of the apostle's questions here seems to be this: Since everything is dependent on God's will, which is irreversible, and since this will of God, according to which he can do everything as sovereign — since he can have mercy on whom he wills to have mercy, and can refuse mercy and inflict punishment on whom he chooses to do so — why does he not will to have mercy on all, so as to make them obedient, and thus put finding of fault out of court? Now it should be particularly noted that the apostle does not repudiate the ground on which the objection rests. He does not say God does not find fault. Nor does he say, Men may resist his will. Furthermore, he does not explain away the objection by saying: You have altogether misapprehended my meaning when I said "Whom he wills he treats kindly, and whom he wills he treats severely". But he says, "`first, this is an objection you have no right to make'; and then, `This is an objection you have no reason to make'" (see Dr. Brown). The objection was utterly inadmissible, for it was a replying against God. It was to complain about, argue against, what God had done!

Rom. 9:19. "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why, doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" The language which the apostle here puts into the mouth of the objector is so plain and pointed, that misunderstanding ought to be impossible. Why doth he yet find fault? Now, reader, what can these words mean? Formulate your own reply before considering ours. Can the force of the apostle's question be any other than this: If it is true that God has "mercy" on whom he wills, and also "hardens" whom he wills, then what becomes of human responsibility? In such a case men are nothing better than puppets, and if this be true then it would be unjust for God to "find fault" with his helpless creatures. Mark the word "then" — thou wilt say then unto me — he states the (false) inference or conclusion which the objector draws from what the apostle had been saying. And mark, my reader, the apostle readily saw the doctrine he had formulated would raise this very objection, and unless what we have written throughout this book provokes, in some at least, (all whose carnal minds are not subdued by divine grace) the same objection, then it must be either because we have not presented the doctrine which is set forth in Rom. 9:1-33, or else because human nature has changed since the apostle's day. Consider now the remainder of the verse Rom. 9:19. The apostle repeats the same objection in a slightly different form — repeats it so that his meaning may not be missunderstood — namely, "For who hath resisted his will?" It is clear then that the subject under immediate discussion relates to God's "will", i.e., his sovereign ways, which confirms what we have said above upon Rom. 9:17,18, where we contended that it is not judicial hardening which is in view (that is, hardening because of previous rejection of the truth), but sovereign "hardening", that is, the "hardening" of a fallen and sinful creature for no other reason than that which inheres in the sovereign will of God. And hence the question, "Who hath resisted his will?" What then does the apostle say in reply to these objections?

Rom. 9:20. "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" The apostle, then, did not say the objection was pointless and groundless, instead, he rebukes the objector for his impiety. He reminds him that he is merely a "man", a creature, and that as such it is most unseemly and impertinent for him to "reply (argue, or reason) against God". Furthermore, he reminds him that he is nothing more than a "thing formed", and therefore, it is madness and blasphemy to rise up against the former himself. Ere leaving this verse it should be pointed out that its closing words, "Why hast thou made me thus" help us to determine, unmistakably, the precise subject under discussion. In the light of the immediate context what can be the force of the "thus"? What, but as in the case of Esau, why hast thou made me an object of "hatred"? What, but as in the case of Pharaoh, Why hast thou made me simply to "harden" me? What other meaning can, fairly, be assigned to it?

A.W. Pink

If you're interested, the rest is here in chaper 5:
http://www.sovereign-grace.com/pink/0-index.htm

Pink also asks the question below and does a very good job answering it in this same book as above in chapter 8

"How Can The Sinner Be Held Responsible For The Doing Of What He Is Unable To Do? And How Can He Be Justly condemned For Not Doing What He Could Not Do?
 
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heymikey80

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nothing could be more cruel than hell.
Plenty could be more cruel than Hell. In fact, our present time of God's patience is more cruel than Hell. God's going to finally have enough of this cruelty. He will rightly put it to an end, that's a clear statement of its cruelty. But Hell is so much less cruel, that God considers it to be an eternal state that makes righteous sense.

It's certainly not cruel. It's dead-on what we all deserve. I would say no one deserves permanent cruelty -- that is, the connotation of sadism in the word. I don't think God's a sadist anyway. But I guess if by "cruel" you meant "unrelenting, severe", it would be those things. There justice is unrelenting and severe. And God is just.

Probably the most despairing statement of anyone who truly is in Hell is this: they know they deserve Hell. And the most intense statement of gratitude of those saved by Christ: they know they deserve Hell.

[I had made a statement here on Lucifer, but I think it just muddies the waters depending on your eschatology, so I'll leave it out.]
 
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i find acknowledging God isnt bound in time but works within time clarifies the concept of predestination.

or is this thinking unbibical?

It's not unbiblical as long as that line of reasoning isn't being employed as a means to explain why God governs history in the manner that He does. Many make the claim that because God knows what will happen throughout history that He predestined those that He knew would choose Him. The problem is that this is the token "cart before the horse" explanation. God doesn't choose someone because He knows they will choose Him. They choose Him because of what He does to bring them to faith, which began with His predestinatory work on their behalf.

God bless
 
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pippa

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Have you ever considered that those who go to hell deserve to go to hell?
Pink's book on the sovreignty of God has been one of the things setting me on the path to losing my love of God. Pink seems to be a very harsh person also. many christians seem very harsh, especially when praising God's sense of justice in sending sinners to hell. maybe the doctrine of hell hardens people. just what i have noticed.

to say anything could be worse than eternal torment in the fire of hell isnt the most cruel thing is a strange idea, to me. isnt it meant to be the worst? i thought that was the idea of it.

anyway, i might have used the analogy before, of the story, the Emperor's New Clothes. where everyone is praising the emperors clothes, for fear of being thought stupid for not being able to see them. and the little boy saying 'but he's got no clothes on!'

from what i see in the forums, and in all the books written on the subject, and sermons and explanations people give....its just a lot of words, billions of words, which are just like the people praising the emperor's clothes, because they dont want to admit that God is very cruel. yet its obvious, so obvious that if God sends people to such a horrible fate, even if they deserve it, he must be very cruel.

no amount of rationalizing it away by saying, sinners deserve it, God is just so he has to do it, and he has the right to do whatever he wants, he had to give us free will etc, makes one scrap of difference to the fact that hell is the most cruel and horrible punishment imaginable. it can no way be the act of a kind being, in the common everyday sense we use the word 'kind'.

if God was kind, he would not have created the world at all, knowing hell was going to be the fate of billions of humans.

pippa
 
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pippa

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Have you ever considered that those who go to hell deserve to go to hell? Remember, the JUST judge that will send the devil and his angels to

defending the doctrine of hell must harden people, i think, because to most people, hell seems the ultimate in cruelty, endless torture by a 'kind and loving' God. i've defended myself in the past, by saying God has to punish sin, he gave us free will, etc. but i was just parrotting what i'd read, i didnt think it through. when i did think it through, i thought, well if there was no other way for God to create humans than this way where they have to have free will, and billions will have to go to hell and be eternally tortured, second by second, it was CRUEL of God to create us in the first place.

i've used the analogy of the story the Emperor's New Clothes before. anyway, its like this. billions of words are used by people trying to rationalize and philosophize away the idea that God might be very nice. like the people in the story who went along with the pretence that the emporer had fine clothes on, or maybe thinking they were missing something. actually, the emporer was not wearing clothes. and actually, its not the action of a kind being to create humans and let them end up in hell. it might be just, he has every right to do it, but its NOT KIND AND LOVING.

Pink's book on the soveignty of God put me a step on the way to losing my love for God. Pink writes very harshly himself. as i said, i think that defending the doctrine of hell must harden people.

pippa
 
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heymikey80

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defending the doctrine of hell must harden people, i think, because to most people, hell seems the ultimate in cruelty, endless torture by a 'kind and loving' God. i've defended myself in the past, by saying God has to punish sin, he gave us free will, etc. but i was just parrotting what i'd read, i didnt think it through. when i did think it through, i thought, well if there was no other way for God to create humans than this way where they have to have free will, and billions will have to go to hell and be eternally tortured, second by second, it was CRUEL of God to create us in the first place.

i've used the analogy of the story the Emperor's New Clothes before. anyway, its like this. billions of words are used by people trying to rationalize and philosophize away the idea that God might be very nice. like the people in the story who went along with the pretence that the emporer had fine clothes on, or maybe thinking they were missing something. actually, the emporer was not wearing clothes. and actually, its not the action of a kind being to create humans and let them end up in hell. it might be just, he has every right to do it, but its NOT KIND AND LOVING.

Pink's book on the soveignty of God put me a step on the way to losing my love for God. Pink writes very harshly himself. as i said, i think that defending the doctrine of hell must harden people.
And I think it's ironic that many people who have made this world more cruel than Hell think God is unkind and unloving.

I'm sorry, it doesn't make this a useful philosophical view to assert God is less cruel than we are.

In our day the idea of torture is anything that causes pain. =shrug= You're right, life always causes pain. If pain is to be avoided no matter what, then you'd be right.

But this isn't the first culture that put their ease and convenience above right & wrong. It won't be the last.

Christianity embraces the fact that there's something more important than making evil people comfortable and at ease with their evil natures. That's what this culture has done. Has it reduced evil? I say it's done the reverse. What would it have done as a universal principle? It would've done the reverse of what you say you're advocating. The universe would be even more cruel.

As to why God would introduce any cruelty, I can only say there can be good, though speculative, reasons why. Resistance requires conflict. Redemption requires conflict. Salvation requires the inability of another. If these things are critically important, more critically important than our convenience or our ease, then God has done good by introducing limitations into the world -- and thus indirectly bringing about sin.
 
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childofgod57

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a deep and complicated question of which i have no clear answer - as stated the thing formed cannot reply to the potter 'why has thou made me thus?'...also 'i will have mercy on those i will have mercy on'...slightly unsure if that statement is correct but its around there,finally 'he makes one vessel unto glory,the other' again i seriously need to revise my bible but have little time at the moment - will leave you this for hope "GOD is the saviour of ALL mankind"
 
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heymikey80

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defending the doctrine of hell must harden people, i think,
I think we actually do ourselves a disservice when we're hardened by the lesson of Hell. We're not God; yet often we feel we have to defend God as if He agrees with our own limited understanding.

Don't get me wrong, please search for answers. There are good answers to tough questions. In fact Christianity has developed some truly remarkable answers, after 2000 years of defending its doctrines.

But they are still the comments of human beings. There are also mystifying events we've seen in the universe. We don't know everything.

To me Hell is humbling: that there is an end to the real cruelty of this world, and payment for cruelty incurred, to be paid by those who deserve it.

And for us who deserve it as well, there has already been just payment -- payment inflicted intentionally by God on Himself. If there ever was cruelty in this world, that was it. The rest blanches in comparison with what we've done to Him.
 
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pippa

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but that idea doesnt work. there isnt an end to cruelty if the hell of eternal torment is real.

and the 'evil' people of the world who are going to hell according to the bible are not necessarily people who have inflcted cruelty on anyone else. we're talking about ordinary, harmless people of all nations, going about their everyday lives, eking out a living, bringing up their families, maybe never even having heard about the gospel. think of people you know, your grandmother maybe. i think of the people i saw in india lying on the footpaths. the lovely people i meet in everyday situations, doing no harm to anyone, just ignorant of the gospel. these are the evil wicked people deserving of hell, according to the bible and the people on this forum, it seems.

2 months ago i was a righteous person myself, now i'm one of those evil wicked ones. just through thinking something. i have gone from everlasting life to eternal damnation.

the cruel punishment of God 'on himself', he could have avoided by not creating the world the way he did. and that punishment lasted something like3 or 6 hours i forget which. whereas hell is excruciating torture for eternity. nothing is more cruel than that.

like i said, whatever speculative ideas anyone can come up about God being just etc. dont address the issue i'm raising which is the horrendously cruel punishment of hell.

can anyone else explain to me how God's horrible punishments are actually kind, seeing as he didnt have to create us like this in the first place?

pippa
 
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