Questions about Lutherans and their practises

[aussie_anglican]

hey eveyone.
Im from an Eastern Orthodox background whos rather intrested in converting to the Anglican church. however before I make a firm commitment to any faith I want to make sure...I have not yet been to a Lutheran Service but intend to do so this comming sunday. but Id like to ask afew questions if I may.

1. Do Lutherans use/wear crosses and or Crucifix's? if so which one is more common?

2. Do Lutherans bless objects such as crosses, houses etc like their Catholic and Eastern Orthodox bretheran?

3. Im somewhat progressive in my thinking and I believe in women's ordination. what are the Lutheran Churches that do support the ordinanation of women?

4. In the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper do Lutherans belive in that is truly present, if so how does this understanding ' real presence' differ from the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, and Anglican understading of 'real presence'

thank you

 

[AngCath]

1. Many Lutherans do wear crosses/crucifixes. You'll see both.

2. I have seen this, but it is far less prevalent than among our Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox brothers and sisters.

3. In the US, the ELCA ordains women. In Austalia I believe the Lutheran Church of Australia is having discussions about this topic, but currently women may only serve as lay readers.

4. Lutherans believe in sacramental union - the Body and Blood are present in, with, and under the elements.

 

[Luther073082]

1. Do Lutherans use/wear crosses and or Crucifix's? if so which one is more common?

In the US the cross is far more common to wear, however there is no problem with wearing a Crucifix either.

2. Do Lutherans bless objects such as crosses, houses etc like their Catholic and Eastern Orthodox bretheran?

Not very often, we typically have a service of blessing for some objects like the Pascal candle and Lutheran's also bless worship spaces as well. But for the most part this isn't a practice that is normal to Lutheran worship.

3. Im somewhat progressive in my thinking and I believe in women's ordination. what are the Lutheran Churches that do support the ordinanation of women?

Some do, some don't. I could tell you the one's in the US that do but I don't know much about the Lutheran Churchs where you are from.

4. In the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper do Lutherans belive in that is truly present, if so how does this understanding ' real presence' differ from the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, and Anglican understading of 'real presence'

thank you

I think our understanding of communion would be fairly similar to Eastern Orthodox understanding of communion. Maybe not exactly the same though.

The Roman Catholic understanding of communion is different in that Roman Catholics believe that the body and blood *replace* the bread and the wine. While Lutherans hold that the body and the blood become a part of the bread and the wine. Basically the bread is both bread and body and the wine is both wine and blood all at the same time.

Anglicans are all over the page on their views of communion. So its really hard to pin down what exactly they all believe about it.

The biggest difference you will see between those three churchs and the Lutheran church is that Lutheran churchs don't typically hold to Apostolic Succession. Some do, however many do not.

 

[DaRev]

1. Do Lutherans use/wear crosses and or Crucifix's? if so which one is more common?

Yes. It's a personal preference thing.

2. Do Lutherans bless objects such as crosses, houses etc like their Catholic and Eastern Orthodox bretheran?

Not usually. While I have done the blessing of a home, it's not very common.

3. Im somewhat progressive in my thinking and I believe in women's ordination. what are the Lutheran Churches that do support the ordinanation of women?

In Australia, I don't know. But Scripture teaches that women are not called to that office.

4. In the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper do Lutherans belive in that is truly present, if so how does this understanding ' real presence' differ from the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, and Anglican understading of 'real presence'

I'm not exactly sure how the Orthodox teaching differs from the Roman Catholic teaching (if it even does), but the RCC teaches transubstantiation, that the elements of bread and wine change into the body and blood of Christ, thus the bread and wine are no longer present. Confessional Lutherans hold to "sacramental union". The body and blood of Christ is truly present in and with the elements of bread and wine.
The Anglican teachings vary. I know that the Episcopal Church-USA does not require belief in Real Presence. If you do, OK. If you don't OK, contrary to what the Scriptures teach.

 

[Luther073082]

I'm not exactly sure how the Orthodox teaching differs from the Roman Catholic teaching (if it even does), but the RCC teaches transubstantiation, that the elements of bread and wine change into the body and blood of Christ, thus the bread and wine are no longer present. Confessional Lutherans hold to "sacramental union". The body and blood of Christ is truly present in and with the elements of bread and wine.
The Anglican teachings vary. I know that the Episcopal Church-USA does not require belief in Real Presence. If you do, OK. If you don't OK, contrary to what the Scriptures teach.

From everything I've read EO teach that the bread and the wine become the real body and the real blood of Christ but beyond that it is a "Holy Mystery". They have never formally affirmed or denied transubstantiation.

Realistically speaking they are very similar to us in that they don't go into great detail aso to how it happens, in fact they seem to go into less detail then we do.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

hey eveyone.
Im from an Eastern Orthodox background whos rather intrested in converting to the Anglican church. however before I make a firm commitment to any faith I want to make sure...I have not yet been to a Lutheran Service but intend to do so this comming sunday. but Id like to ask afew questions if I may.

1. Do Lutherans use/wear crosses and or Crucifix's? if so which one is more common?

2. Do Lutherans bless objects such as crosses, houses etc like their Catholic and Eastern Orthodox bretheran?

3. Im somewhat progressive in my thinking and I believe in women's ordination. what are the Lutheran Churches that do support the ordinanation of women?

4. In the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper do Lutherans belive in that is truly present, if so how does this understanding ' real presence' differ from the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, and Anglican understading of 'real presence'

thank you

1) Yes. I would say crosses are more commonly worn, but we do not oppose either.
2) Lutherans have done blessings, they are not particularly common. Although some churches have days for blessing certain things (pets, bikes, farm equipment, etc) it just really depends on the congregation and pastor and situation as to whether something gets blessed and how common that is. I know there are rites for house blessings particularly for families if someone commit suicide or something else tragic happened in the house.
3) I am not aware in terms of Australia what churches ordain women, I think the Lutheran Church of Australia does not. In America, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ, and the North American Lutheran Church ordain women. This is a very divisive issue among Lutherans as some bodies believe scripture forbids it while others believe scripture shows that women may serve.
4) Here are some ways the different bodies have expressed their belief regarding communion:
Episcopal Church USA: While transubstantiation is rejected, Christ is believed to reside in the elements in the Eucharist. How He is present is a holy mystery.

Roman Catholic: [the Mass] involves a 're-presenting' or 'renewing' of the sacrifice of Jesus over and over again. Catholics believe the sacrament constitutes a 'true and proper sacrifice,' and in every single Mass God is appeased. It is believed that during the Mass, the bread and wine miraculously turn into the actual body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation). This happens at the prayer of consecration of the priest.

Orthodox: the Eucharist, is the sacrament of sacraments and mystery of mysteries. It is believed that the Holy Spirit descends on the elements of the bread and wine by liturgical invocation. At consecration by the Holy Spirit through the priest, the elements are mystically changed into the body and blood of Jesus. Those who participate share a banquet of the kingdom of God.

Lutheran: In the Lord's Supper, participants receive the true body and blood of Jesus, and the repentant believer receives forgiveness of sins. The Lord's Supper is a means by which a believer becomes assured of salvation.

Above all comes from "Complete Guide to Christian Denominations".
To add and say more, Lutherans believe the bread and wine do not change into the body and blood like Catholics and Orthodox, are more firm than the Anglican to say it is a physical, real presence and it is "in, with, and under" the bread and wine. This happens not by blessing or consecration, but in the speaking of Christ's words and the distribution. How is a mystery, but because in those words Christ promises his presence we believe, affirm, and proclaim he is present (yet the bread is still bread and wine still wine).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

hey eveyone.
Im from an Eastern Orthodox background whos rather intrested in converting to the Anglican church. however before I make a firm commitment to any faith I want to make sure...I have not yet been to a Lutheran Service but intend to do so this comming sunday. but Id like to ask afew questions if I may.

1. Do Lutherans use/wear crosses and or Crucifix's? if so which one is more common?

Either are fine and proper. I wear a crucifix. For me, a plain cross is an instrument of torture, but as Scripture says "we worship Christ crucified".

2. Do Lutherans bless objects such as crosses, houses etc like their Catholic and Eastern Orthodox bretheran?

While not as common, there are rubrics for such within Lutheran Service Book. My wife and I are in the midst of buying a house, and once we are all moved in, we are having Pastor and his wife, some family and close friends come over for the blessing. It will be followed by a BBQ and "Lutheran Beverages".

3. Im somewhat progressive in my thinking and I believe in women's ordination. what are the Lutheran Churches that do support the ordinanation of women?

The Lutheran Church of Australia (Link: Lutheran Church of Australia | LCA) is a member of the International Lutheran Council (Link: International Lutheran Council), and is therefore in fellowship with Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and my Synod, Lutheran Church Canada. The ILC are confessional, and do not ordain women.

I spoke of the Lutheran Service Book above, and like LCMS and LCC, many of the LCA Congregations have adopted it for use.

4. In the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper do Lutherans belive in that is truly present, if so how does this understanding ' real presence' differ from the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, and Anglican understading of 'real presence'

I understand that the EO's understanding is somewhat more similar to ours in that it is a mystery. Lutherans take Scripture at it's word, that is we receive both Christ's body and blood, and bread and wine at the same time. Christ's body and blood are present in, with and under the bread and wine. As stated above, individual Anglican belief varies, but in reading the 39 Articles, one sees a tendency towards a belief in a "spiritual presence" more like conservative Methodists do.

thank you

Know that you are most welcome!

Any other questions?

 

[Kalevalatar]

Greetings and very much welcome!

1. In Finland, 90% of our kids (i.e. us) are confirmed Lutheran, and the traditional confirmation gift given by the godparents is a (simpler-style) cross pendant, most typically of silver but also of gold or bronze. Many of us continue to wear it 24/7. Nothing against wearing a Crucifix per se, just not very common and "in tradition" over here.

2. The Evangelical Church of Finland does bless homes, at your pastor's discretion.

3. The Evangelical Church of Finland only has one set of offices, that of a parish pastor, chaplain, vicar/cathedral dean, bishop, and archbishop, the qualifications, salary, perks, hours etc, of which are considered to be matters of church organization, not salvation. We are in fellowship with the Lutheran Church of Australia.

Since you are from an Eastern Orthodox background, I would also like to point out that in my country, the Lutheran and Orthodox traditions meet beautifully, with a long shared history. I know many Lutheran pastors who do, on occasion, visit an Orthodox service, and vice versa, so I would think you would feel more at home in the Lutheran church than Anglican, but of course, I'm biased. Please do consider it though, will you?

4. Others have already answered this.

Here is your #1 Lutheran source: Our Book of Concord.

 

[aussie_anglican]

In Australia, I don't know. But Scripture teaches that women are not called to that office.

whilst I respect your opinion scripture also teaches that

1. genocide (mainly of the cannities) is ok.

2. God commands Hagar go back into servanthood and bear children for her master though she does not want to.

these are just some examples of stuff the bible teaches. it is my belief that not all parts of scripture are applicable to todays situation. The ordination of women (and indeed the situation of women in the bible as a whole) is one of them

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

whilst I respect your opinion scripture also teaches that

1. genocide (mainly of the cannities) is ok.

2. God commands Hagar go back into servanthood and bear children for her master though she does not want to.

these are just some examples of stuff the bible teaches. it is my belief that not all parts of scripture are applicable to todays situation. The ordination of women (and indeed the situation of women in the bible as a whole) is one of them

Confessional Lutherans accept all of Scripture as Divinely inspired word of God; all of it true. The things of which you speak were done because of the will of God; and each instance was a particular situation, dealt with by God, through people doing God's will.

Such things as female ordination are not one time things, there are no caveats attached, no time limit, so Confessional Synods follow these directives.

Confessional Lutherans accept (not always agreeing with, because of our free will), but accepting none the less all of Scripture, not in the context of today, but in the context of Scripture itself; that is in the context of eternity.

If we decide that we need not follow certain things that conflict with the humanistic society of today, then tomorrow we may be viewing Scripture differently yet again. Doing such is proof that we doubt parts of God's inspired word, and if we doubt "this" part because of our reason, then someone else's reason must be just as valid in doubting other things. Before long, we end up gutting Scripture, and it becomes meaningless, God's will, and His Holy word usurped by our reason; at which time God's word becomes no more to us than Dr. Zeus.

Accepting God's Word for what it is, is submitting to God's will, no more, and no less.

We all rebel against God's Will, it's human nature/original sin/free will; yet through Christ, God forgives us for it. We can not in this life fully submit, but faith, the Holy Spirit, and God's Word compels us to try!

In submitting, we also free us of the responsibility and error of assuming we know the will of God better than Scripture, and better than God Himself. This is freedom indeed; try it, you will like it!

Mark

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Good joy, brothers and sisters....

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Good joy, brothers and sisters....

Hi CJ, joy and peace to you also!

 

[aussie_anglican]

In submitting, we also free us of the responsibility and error of assuming we know the will of God better than Scripture, and better than God Himself. This is freedom indeed; try it, you will like it!

tried it once (first 24 years of my life)....turned me into a bigot, ultimatly decided it didnt agree with me.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

tried it once (first 24 years of my life)....turned me into a bigot, ultimatly decided it didnt agree with me.

You may just need more practice, I know I do. I fight with an arrogant attitude also, but that's not Sola Scriptura speaking, but my pride and arrogance. Pride and arrogance are a sign of me not fully submitting to God's will. The more I work at it, the stronger my faith and conviction become, the greater my humility.

I think also that pride and arrogance (or to use your word bigotry) are a response to our insecurity. We try and justify our position by beating up ourselves and others. Submission takes the onus off of us, so we need not justify our position; since we are justified by our faith, and the salvaic work of Jesus Christ.

Truly, we are all works in progress. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit does not give up on us; we should not give up on our selves either by taking the path of least resistance.

Pax Domini

 

[LilLamb219]

When I start to question why God has done things while I'm reading the bible, I tend to reflect upon the book of Job.

 

[aussie_anglican]

I guess I dont really belive the bible is gods literal word....rather I think I see the bible as man's search for God, and as human society develops so did 'Gods word"...indeed parts of the TTorah condem eunuch's, yet through the prophets apparently god changes his mind. then ultimatly they are given the same status as everyone else in the NT......if the cannon of scripture had never closed I doubt Women priests, activly gay men and women would have been shoved into the 'sinful' catography.

I think Lutheranism may be abit too fundementalist for my tastes....no offence to anyone, I still admire Lutheranism.

 

[LilLamb219]

I used to doubt a lot of what I read in the Bible years ago, but then a question hit me one day...if I doubted one part, and then the other, and then came another part, how convenient it would be to just doubt who Christ was and what He did for me on the cross for my sins.

When I read scripture now, I don't tend to say Oh that couldn't have happened...because if it couldn't happen, could Jesus really have died in my substitute? Did God really say...? (Satan's insinuation from Genesis).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I guess I dont really belive the bible is gods literal word....rather I think I see the bible as man's search for God, and as human society develops so did 'Gods word"...indeed parts of the TTorah condem eunuch's, yet through the prophets apparently god changes his mind. then ultimatly they are given the same status as everyone else in the NT......if the cannon of scripture had never closed I doubt Women priests, activly gay men and women would have been shoved into the 'sinful' catography.

I think Lutheranism may be abit too fundementalist for my tastes....no offence to anyone, I still admire Lutheranism.

Fundamentalist implies legalistic theology; legalistic we are not.

I pray that you find your way. I searched and researched other denominations, and I got lead back to Confessional Lutheranism each time; and each time stronger and more steadfast. I pray that you too find a home where your faith grows and strengthens!

I'm not sure if there are Liberal Lutherans in Australia, there may be, but they are in fellowship with Anglicans, so they may better suite your present place in your faith journey.

God bless, and I shall pray for you.

Your friend in Christ,

Mark

 

[lux et lex]

I guess I dont really belive the bible is gods literal word....rather I think I see the bible as man's search for God, and as human society develops so did 'Gods word"...indeed parts of the TTorah condem eunuch's, yet through the prophets apparently god changes his mind. then ultimatly they are given the same status as everyone else in the NT......if the cannon of scripture had never closed I doubt Women priests, activly gay men and women would have been shoved into the 'sinful' catography.

I think Lutheranism may be abit too fundementalist for my tastes....no offence to anyone, I still admire Lutheranism.

We aren't all fundies. I agree with much of what you have said. I wish there was a version of the ELCA in Australia that you could check out. I think you might like it.

 

[Luther073082]

I guess I dont really belive the bible is gods literal word....rather I think I see the bible as man's search for God, and as human society develops so did 'Gods word"...indeed parts of the TTorah condem eunuch's, yet through the prophets apparently god changes his mind. then ultimatly they are given the same status as everyone else in the NT......if the cannon of scripture had never closed I doubt Women priests, activly gay men and women would have been shoved into the 'sinful' catography.

I think Lutheranism may be abit too fundementalist for my tastes....no offence to anyone, I still admire Lutheranism.

See now I see scripture as proof of God more then anything else. I think beyond any faith questions there is a real logical problem with anyone who belives in a God that has not left us a true and consistant message like in the bible.

If God has left us no message then he apparently just created us and doesn't care about what we do or what is going on in our lives. This I have a very difficult time believing. I don't belive that God would create people just to ignore them.

Also the other problem I have with believing that God created us without leaving us a consistant message is this. Most of the people who belive in this also belive that God agree's with them on pretty much well everything.

My parents are like this, especially my mother. (My father is very good at keeping his personal faith views secretive.) In that if scripture says something she doesn't like, she rejects it entirely and she simpily belives that God agree's with her.

That basically makes God into a projection of one's self. Which is really really stupid. If there is a God, its pretty safe to assume that this God probably has his own opinions on things that are not the same as yours.

If we presume God has his own opinions on things then he must leave us a true and consistant message so that we may clearly understand God's opinions on our lives. If he has not done this then he's not an opinionated God and must accept that we may freely do whatever we want to do and he does not care. And this includes things like murder, rape, theft etc. If God has not left us a true and consistant message, then he must not care when people do these things.

So basically here are your options:

1. God created us and left us a true and consistant message about how he wants us to live our lives. Then God is both loving and just, but also has his own opinions about right and wrong.

2. God created us but left no consistant message about how he wants us to live our lives and has no opinions about it. Then God is neither loving nor just. If God loves us then he wants us to love eachother and encourage that. If God does not encourage his children to love eachother, then he does not love his children. He is also not just because must then recognize no justice.

3. God created us, has opinions on justice, but left no true and consistant message about his opinions. Therefore then God is neither just nor loving. Justice requires that one has a possibility for access of what is expected of you. Would it be justice if your nation/state/territory or whatever your chief lawmaking body is where to make laws but keep them hidden from you? Then when you violate one they punish you without you having any idea what you did wrong in the first place?

Also if God is like this then he is not loving because he has a law and expectations of his creations that he did not see fit to communicate to his creations.

4. God created us, but has the same opinions on justice as you do. If this is true there are two possibilities.

The first is that God only loves you, and perhaps those who agree with you. It is therefore his opinon that the rest of the people who disagree with you can go to hell and he clearly does not care because you are so highly favored just for being you.

The second is that God has created you to be some sort of a prophet or Messah since you have such intimate personal knowledge of the creator that it is now your job to spread your opinions around the world so that everyone may agree with you and therefore agree with God.

5. There is no God/God did not create us/God has no power.

Really logically if you ask me you only have those 5 options. St. Augustine said that when you choose what parts of the gospel (read scripture) you belive, and which parts you don't, that its not the gospel you belive but yourself.

Now that having been said there are indeed many things that God has no opinion on. God really doesn't care if you wear the green shirt today or the blue shirt today. If he did care, it would be in scripture. If we assume that scripture is God's true and consistant message to humanity about who he is and what his expecations are, then we can also safely assume that whatever is not in scripture, God does not have an opinion on. Therefore for example God does not care if you wear the green shirt today or the blue shirt today. If he did care about what color shirt you wore there would be mention of it in scripture.

In my humble opinion I belive that I've logically disproven diesm, which seems to be the real religion of most westerners anyways.