Questions about Jesus and hell

[TagliatelliMonster]

except that belief unto salvation is a belief of the heart not the mind as such it is something you can choose to do or choose not to do.

My heart pumps blood. It makes no decisions, nore does it have thoughts or "beliefs".
Using poetic language and just repeating the same claim, which I just explained to be non-sensical, doesn't change one iota of anything I have said.

No, I do not "choose" what to believe. As I said, belief is a compulsion, not some conscious choice.

I can't "choose" to believe that jumping from the Eiffel Tower without a parachute won't kill me. I can't "choose" to believe that Thor's hammer is what causes thunder.
Just like I can't "choose" to believe the supernatural claims of Christianity.

 

[razzelflabben]

My heart pumps blood. It makes no decisions, nore does it have thoughts or "beliefs".

obviously this is going to be an uphill battle....the heart here refers to the determination or deep seated self that is who you are. For example, "he believed with all his heart that she loved him" is not referring to the pump inside the chest but rather to the very nature of who the guy is. Likewise, if you look up heart in scripture, it is this deep seated core of the man that is being referred to here. It's all about context.

Using poetic language and just repeating the same claim, which I just explained to be non-sensical, doesn't change one iota of anything I have said.

like I said, belief unto salvation is not a belief of the mind but of the very core of man, therefore it does not have to be rational and logical and thought out though it can be. Take the above, the "she" might be acting hateful but the "he" still believes with his heart that she loved him....not rational and yet belief none the less.

No, I do not "choose" what to believe. As I said, belief is a compulsion, not some conscious choice.

but you choose every day what you will and will not believe. For example, the cake is sitting on the counter, do you choose to believe it will be yummy or not? It's a choice..I really don't know why you seem to be getting so upset about this, it's just how life works, nothing more or less and where it takes away excuse not to believe, the choice is still yours.

I can't "choose" to believe that jumping from the Eiffel Tower without a parachute won't kill me. I can't "choose" to believe that Thor's hammer is what causes thunder.

sure you can...but belief or lack thereof does NOT change the outcome...IOW's you can believe that jumping off the Eiffel tower without a parachute won't kill you but if your jump without a parachute you are likely to die. What we believe or don't believe does nothing to change truth.

Just like I can't "choose" to believe the supernatural claims of Christianity.

sure you can, what you choose just does nothing to change the truth or lie of those claims

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

obviously this is going to be an uphill battle....the heart here refers to the determination or deep seated self that is who you are. For example, "he believed with all his heart that she loved him" is not referring to the pump inside the chest but rather to the very nature of who the guy is.

Ie: the brain. That's where you do your thinking. That's where your "mind" is. That's where your "personality" is.

Likewise, if you look up heart in scripture, it is this deep seated core of the man that is being referred to here. It's all about context.

Actually, it's all about poetry.
The fact of the matter is that your brain is what you do your thinking with. It's in the brain that thoughts, beliefs, convictions, etc are formed and formulated.

It's what the brain does.

like I said, belief unto salvation is not a belief of the mind but of the very core of man

Which is the exact same thing, using different words.

, therefore it does not have to be rational and logical and thought out though it can be.

If you care about being rational, it should.
The fact that you are basically saying that I should NOT care, and simply circumvent rationality and logical thinking, speaks volumes actually....

Take the above, the "she" might be acting hateful but the "he" still believes with his heart that she loved him....not rational and yet belief none the less.

Indeed. Not rational. Not to mention that his belief is mistaken.
That's the thing with irrational belief... they often are mistaken. But if the reasoning of the belief is irrational / illogical, how would you know - if you don't actually care?

Also, keep in mind that you aren't actually arguing against my point. I didn't even speak about rationality. I spoke about how I can not simply decide on a whim what I will and will not belief.

I can't simply choose to believe that Thor causes lightning. I could pretend I do, but I could not really, actually believe that like I believe that I will plummeth to my death when jumping from the Empire State building.

but you choose every day what you will and will not believe.

I do not.

For example, the cake is sitting on the counter, do you choose to believe it will be yummy or not? It's a choice..

No. It is an expectation based on my previous experiences with tasting cakes.
Nore is that really a "belief". Rather, it is a subjective personal preference based on my likes and dislikes (which I don't choose either, btw). Which is not the same thing. Obviously.

I really don't know why you seem to be getting so upset about this

I'm not upset. I just don't see how you can't comprehend this, while it is rather easy to understand for yourself how it is to NOT believe a certain thing, because there is a very wide range of things that you do not believe. You are not into Viking Gods, for example. You do not believe that Odin and Thor are real.

Honestly now... could you here and now really consciously decide that you will start believing that these Gods are real? And really honestly believe it?

I say: no, you could not. At best, you could pretend to.

What we believe or don't believe does nothing to change truth. sure you can, what you choose just does nothing to change the truth or lie of those claims

It's not the truth of the claims that is the subject of discussion here.


My point is that it is completely immoral / unethical to punish or reward people for things that are not under their control.

Punishing someone for not being convinced of a certain thing, is like punishing someone for the color of their skin.

 

[timbo3]

This has to do with the scene of putting your trust in princes-but in the very day their thoughts perish.
not the ability to have thoughts, but the thoughts, plans, help they wanted to do all perishes

his thoughts perish
/as in the thoughts existed but end
/not that people can't think after they die

Proverbs 23:14
"...save his soul from hell."
/This is not about the grave.

The ancient Oriental man named Job was under duress from Satan's attempts to break his integrity.(Job 2:3) Because of the extreme test put upon him by Satan and allowed by Jehovah God (Job 2:6), Job felt that death was better than life, for then his suffering would end, saying: "Let the day perish on which I was born........Why did I not die at birth ?.......For now I would be lying undisturbed; I would be sleeping and at rest".(Job 3:1, 11, 13)

Job was well aware that at death, a person no longer can suffer or feel pain. At Job 14, he asks: "If a man dies, can he live again ?" Job also knew that only while alive is pain felt, for he then says: "He feels pain only (Hebrew al) while he is still in the flesh; he mourns only while he is still alive".(Job 14:14, 22)

That is why Jesus said to his apostles concerning Lazarus after he died: "Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there (to Bethany) to awaken him".(John 11:11) Jesus likened death to being asleep, unaware of anything around them.

And of Proverbs 23:14, a modern language translation reads: "With the rod you should strike him (or "rod" of discipline, not necessarily a literal rod in raising a child in order to reach his heart), in order to save him from the Grave (Grave, Hebrew Sheol meaning "the common grave of mankind", New World Translation) Darby's Bible, American Standard and Young's Bible all say Sheol there instead of grave or "hell" like the King James and Catholic Douay Bibles.

 

[razzelflabben]

Ie: the brain. That's where you do your thinking. That's where your "mind" is. That's where your "personality" is.

not exactly...http://peterwinslow.com/is-it-true-that-what-i-think-makes-me-who-i-am/ there are many other such discussions you might be well served to look into a few of them.

Actually, it's all about poetry.
The fact of the matter is that your brain is what you do your thinking with. It's in the brain that thoughts, beliefs, convictions, etc are formed and formulated.

that is one version, but the evidence suggests otherwise and I think you might be the first person I have ever run into that doesn't accept that there is much more to who we are then out thoughts...and pity us all if our thoughts are all that make us us.

It's what the brain does.

I really think you put too much pressure on the brain especially since we have control over our brain which in and of itself suggests we are more than just thoughts.

Which is the exact same thing, using different words.

If you care about being rational, it should.
The fact that you are basically saying that I should NOT care, and simply circumvent rationality and logical thinking, speaks volumes actually....

well, since I did NOT say that rational thought was not important I guess you should not have a problem with what I said. In fact, I said that it can be part of the belief of the heart and personally, I think it should be but the bottom line is that it is not required. I talk to people all the time that have irrational fears and beliefs, it's part of human nature sometimes. That does not mean that they should throw out rational thought as you try to accuse me of saying here when that is NOT what I said. Rather it is to demonstrate that we are more than thoughts which come from reasoning and logic.

Indeed. Not rational. Not to mention that his belief is mistaken.
That's the thing with irrational belief... they often are mistaken. But if the reasoning of the belief is irrational / illogical, how would you know - if you don't actually care?

I don't even know what you are trying to say here especially since no one suggested not caring about rational and logical thought....that is just something you made up so that you could have an argument so you would have to answer that question for yourself. Personally, I came to Christ out of logic and reason...so it is a big deal to me, but the point was that belief of the "heart" is not about can you preform rational gymnastics but rather what you choose to believe or not believe. I am pretty confident I proved my case if you want to refute what I said, please do, if all you want to do is accuse me of saying things I didn't, forum rules say that is flaming and I will take their advice on how to deal with it under advisement.

Also, keep in mind that you aren't actually arguing against my point. I didn't even speak about rationality. I spoke about how I can not simply decide on a whim what I will and will not belief.

actually that is exactly what I am arguing against...if belief is only in the mind then it would require some form of rational or logical thought but since it is belief of the heart no such thing is required. Maybe if you took time to hear what I am saying rather than pretending I said something I didn't you would be able to follow my argument. Just some friendly advice.

I can't simply choose to believe that Thor causes lightning. I could pretend I do, but I could not really, actually believe that like I believe that I will plummeth to my death when jumping from the Empire State building.

sure you can, you determine in your "heart" you will believe it and tada, you believe. I demonstrated that already

I do not.
No. It is an expectation based on my previous experiences with tasting cakes.
Nore is that really a "belief". Rather, it is a subjective personal preference based on my likes and dislikes (which I don't choose either, btw). Which is not the same thing. Obviously.

and what if the cake, though it looks great tastes nasty? Did your belief change anything? Of course not. Yet you still believed it and what is more troubling for your argument is that you challenged it by talking about another thing that makes us us, that of experiences....see, above you claimed that we are only our thoughts, here you say we are our thoughts and experiences...I bet if we keep talking you can come up with other things that "we are" than just thoughts.

I'm not upset. I just don't see how you can't comprehend this, while it is rather easy to understand for yourself how it is to NOT believe a certain thing, because there is a very wide range of things that you do not believe. You are not into Viking Gods, for example. You do not believe that Odin and Thor are real.

two reasons why....1. they are illogical (remember I am NOT the one who said to throw logic out, that was you) and 2. I experienced the living God and He is more than sufficient to satisfy.

Shall we ask you why you don't believe in the God of the bible?

Honestly now... could you here and now really consciously decide that you will start believing that these Gods are real? And really honestly believe it?

sure, if I wanted to, but I don't want to...

I say: no, you could not. At best, you could pretend to.
It's not the truth of the claims that is the subject of discussion here.

right, but your claim was that you couldn't believe something you know to be wrong, I showed that you could.

My point is that it is completely immoral / unethical to punish or reward people for things that are not under their control.

not sure what you are talking about here...the God of the Bible doesn't punish people for things outside their control but that might be a whole different discussion.

Punishing someone for not being convinced of a certain thing, is like punishing someone for the color of their skin.

since that isn't the God of the Bible I don't know who you are referring to in order to address it.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm