Questions about Jesus and hell

Nihilist Virus

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Someone please explain why unbelievers must endure eternal hellfire.

My understanding is that Jesus took our place. Doesn't that mean our punishment should just be a crucifixion? Or perhaps 36 hours of hell if you believe Jesus went there while he was dead? Or perhaps a longer finite stay in hell? But how could Jesus have paid our punishment if he didn't endure it?

And this still doesn't explain why his one payment has some sort of multiplier effect to atone for billions of Christians. If the answer is that God can just do whatever he wants, why not just forgive us without torturing himself/his son?

If you don't believe that Jesus took our place but rather bore our sins, then why does hell even need to exist? Also, if Jesus bore our sins, why was he not punished? Wouldn't he be responsible for our sins if he bears our sins?

Or do you not believe in hell? If so, why are you a Christian and why should I care about any of this? If there is no hell aren't you better off hedging your bet and appeasing some other angry deity? If you believe Christianity because it's simply true, why haven't I seen your evidence or good arguments? If you have neither, why believe? Faith? What proposition couldn't be justified by faith? How, then, is faith something that leads to truth?
 

rockytopva

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There were before the big bang three groups of angels

1. Lucifer - Which means bearer of light, I can imagine illuminated the thrown of God and led his third of angels in worship.
2. Michael - Strong angels - Which run out Lucifer and this third from heaven
3, Gabriel - Wise angels - In which brings tidings to planet earth.


Lucifer rebelled and took his third with him...

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.... - Revelation 12

This rebellion is depicted on Led Zeppelin albums...

swansong.jpg


We humans were created to replace the vacated heavens. They know it and war with us over their former estates. A good Gospel minister will paint this picture, bringing one to the point of decision to follow Lucifer or Christ, and to their final ends.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Someone please explain why unbelievers must endure eternal hellfire.

My understanding is that Jesus took our place. Doesn't that mean our punishment should just be a crucifixion? Or perhaps 36 hours of hell if you believe Jesus went there while he was dead? Or perhaps a longer finite stay in hell? But how could Jesus have paid our punishment if he didn't endure it?

And this still doesn't explain why his one payment has some sort of multiplier effect to atone for billions of Christians. If the answer is that God can just do whatever he wants, why not just forgive us without torturing himself/his son?

If you don't believe that Jesus took our place but rather bore our sins, then why does hell even need to exist? Also, if Jesus bore our sins, why was he not punished? Wouldn't he be responsible for our sins if he bears our sins?

Or do you not believe in hell?
While I realize I could be wrong, I don't specifically subscribe to the Church's "time-honored" interpretations about God's cosmic punishment for sins. No, I think there will be no ..."Eternal Hellfire!!!," but rather an Eternal Destruction for all those who refused Jesus as their Savior, and after everything is said and done, they will simply be swept away in a neat and tidy fashion into the dustbin of oblivion. :dead:

If so, why are you a Christian and why should I care about any of this?
NV, I'm a Christian because: 1) Jesus seems to be the Supreme Good in my life, and 2) Eternal life with Jesus (and at least some of my family and friends) sounds a whole lot better than the alternative I just gave above. And why should you care about any of this? That is something only you can decide for yourself.

If there is no hell aren't you better off hedging your bet and appeasing some other angry deity?
Ummm, what other angry deity? Vishnu? Zeus? Loki? (And I don't count "Allah" because I see that name as a designation for the correct God, but one viewed through an erroneous interpretation ...)

If you believe Christianity because it's simply true, why haven't I seen your evidence or good arguments?
I believe Christianity to be true, but definitely not because there's anything "simple" about Christianity, NV.

I surmise that you aren't "seeing it" because you have a different "set" of notions, ideas, definitions, perceptions, conceptions, life experiences, evaluations, and an otherwise unique way of experiencing the world, one not like mine. But, that is to be expected since both Christianity, and life itself, are anything but epistemologically, metaphysically, or ethically simple. Hopefully, God will "turn the lights on" for you, and I'll say some prayers on your behalf in the hope that at some point He will do so.

If you have neither, why believe?
...... :graduation:

Faith? What proposition couldn't be justified by faith? How, then, is faith something that leads to truth?
I can't speak for other Christians, but for me faith is more like being caught in a gravitational pull--it's a situation that I can't fully explain, but I sense I'm in it just the same; call it a "Space Odyssey" faith. So, I see faith more as a cognitive response mechanism to the presence of mystery than as a compass pointing toward the Divine North.

Thus, in reflecting upon the whole notion of Hell as it has been touted through the ages, and by which many have come to grieve and thereby encounter an inability to believe, I'll just say again that I don't specifically subscribe to the "time-honored" interpretations which are construed within the Church as ..."Eternal Hellfire!!!" :hot:

Merry Christmas,
2PhiloVoid
 
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AvgJoe

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Someone please explain why unbelievers must endure eternal hellfire.

My understanding is that Jesus took our place. Doesn't that mean our punishment should just be a crucifixion? Or perhaps 36 hours of hell if you believe Jesus went there while he was dead? Or perhaps a longer finite stay in hell? But how could Jesus have paid our punishment if he didn't endure it?

And this still doesn't explain why his one payment has some sort of multiplier effect to atone for billions of Christians. If the answer is that God can just do whatever he wants, why not just forgive us without torturing himself/his son?

If you don't believe that Jesus took our place but rather bore our sins, then why does hell even need to exist? Also, if Jesus bore our sins, why was he not punished? Wouldn't he be responsible for our sins if he bears our sins?

Or do you not believe in hell? If so, why are you a Christian and why should I care about any of this? If there is no hell aren't you better off hedging your bet and appeasing some other angry deity? If you believe Christianity because it's simply true, why haven't I seen your evidence or good arguments? If you have neither, why believe? Faith? What proposition couldn't be justified by faith? How, then, is faith something that leads to truth?


If we think of Jesus as merely a man, then this question is a natural one to ask. But the reason Jesus did not have to spend eternity in hell is that He is not merely a man, but the God-man. The second Person of the Godhead took on flesh and lived among men in the form of a man. But He was a man like no other because His nature was that of God—holy, perfect and infinite.

Several passages attest to this fact, such as the opening passage in John’s Gospel. It is there we read the following:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:1–3, 14).

This passage gives clear testimony that the eternal Word, who is co-eternal with God and of the same essence as God, took on human flesh and made His dwelling (“pitched his tent” or “tabernacled”) among us. As the apostle Paul says regarding Jesus, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9).

With that in mind, let’s look more closely at the question. It is certainly true that the penalty for our sins is an eternity in hell. The Bible says that all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and that the wages of our sin is death (Romans 6:23). The book of Revelation says that those whose names aren’t in the Lamb’s book of life are cast into the lake of fire where they will be tormented “forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10, 15).

But how can the death of Jesus atone for the sins of every person who has ever lived? This is where the discussion of Jesus being the God-man comes in. If Jesus were a mere man (with sin of His own), then His death wouldn’t even atone for His own sin, much less the sins of another. But Jesus is no mere man; He is God in human flesh. As a man, He can identify with those for whom He sacrificed Himself. As a perfectly sinless man, He can atone for the sins of mankind without first having to atone for His own sin. Finally, as God, He can fully satisfy the wrath of God that our sins incur.

Sin against an infinite God must be paid infinitely. That is why payment for our sin must be infinite. There are only two options for infinite payment. Either a finite creature (man) must pay for his sin for an infinite amount of time, or an infinite Being (Jesus) must pay for it once for all men for all time. There are no other options. A sin against an infinitely holy God requires an equally infinite satisfaction as payment, and even an eternity in hell will not dissipate God’s infinite, righteous wrath against sin. Only a divine Being could withstand the infinite wrath of a holy God against our sin. It requires an equally infinite Being as a substitute for mankind to satisfy God’s wrath. Jesus, as the God-man, is the only possible Savior.
 
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zippy2006

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Someone please explain why unbelievers must endure eternal hellfire.

Because they refuse the help that would bring them to a state of being which Heaven requires. Heaven is the Tour de France and the unbeliever is the massively obese fellow who has spent his whole life sitting around eating potato chips. His lifelong choices preclude him from participating in the Tour de France.
 
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CrystalDragon

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There were before the big bang three groups of angels

1. Lucifer - Which means bearer of light, I can imagine illuminated the thrown of God and led his third of angels in worship.
2. Michael - Strong angels - Which run out Lucifer and this third from heaven
3, Gabriel - Wise angels - In which brings tidings to planet earth.


Lucifer rebelled and took his third with him...

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.... - Revelation 12

This rebellion is depicted on Led Zeppelin albums...

swansong.jpg


We humans were created to replace the vacated heavens. They know it and war with us over their former estates. A good Gospel minister will paint this picture, bringing one to the point of decision to follow Lucifer or Christ, and to their final ends.


Lucifer was a name used for the King of Babylon, not a fallen angel.
 
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rockytopva

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Lucifer was a name used for the King of Babylon, not a fallen angel.

Not according to the men who knew the devil the best... The Rolling Stones!


Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint
(Who who, who who)
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
(Woo woo)
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, mm yeah
(Woo woo, woo woo) - Songwriters: Keith Richards / Mick Jagger
 
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Greg J.

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Someone please explain why unbelievers must endure eternal hellfire.
The stumbling block is not that you aren't forgiven. The problem is that you don't want to be forgiven. You can't want to be forgiven by God unless you believe in God. And then the issue is, even though God is GOD, is he your God? Obedience is the typical evidence of who is your God. The bottom line is that people that don't acknowledge Jesus as their Lord from their heart don't want to have anything to do with him or don't like what he said we need. Unbelievers are going to get exactly what they want (as expressed by their heart and actions).
My understanding is that Jesus took our place. Doesn't that mean our punishment should just be a crucifixion? Or perhaps 36 hours of hell if you believe Jesus went there while he was dead? Or perhaps a longer finite stay in hell? But how could Jesus have paid our punishment if he didn't endure it?
The big issue that is often overlooked by Christians and non-Christians alike (and is often only explained piece-wise) is the condition of our nature. Man was created in unity with God. God was Adam's father and Adam receive God's nature. Man had a nature that was compatible with God—they were connected (which is the Biblical meaning of life). When Adam sinned, he intentionally chose to reject his own God-connected nature. Because of the loss of connection with God, Adam's nature changed. Being disconnected from God is what is called Biblical death. Adam died spiritually. One effect was that he could no longer give birth to children with God's nature. His children inherited Adam's disconnected-from-God nature.
And this still doesn't explain why his one payment has some sort of multiplier effect to atone for billions of Christians. If the answer is that God can just do whatever he wants, why not just forgive us without torturing himself/his son?
An aspect of God's nature is revealed in the Law that I refer to as the kinsman-redeemer laws. It is not all laid out nicely in one place. It is, for example, referred to in the book of Hebrews. It is consistent with God's nature that a family member can purchase the freedom of a slave (in his family). All mankind has been, was, and is a slave to sin as a result of not having the God-nature Adam rejected. God, the Son became a man which made him a member of mankind. Because he existed before all people, he had authority over all people. He paid the price required (death) to free mankind/the slaves to sin. However, if a slave wants to remain a slave, that was his right. To receive the benefit of the purchase, the slave needed to acknowledge Jesus as having authority over him and accept his gift of redemption. It's easy to say "ok! he's my master," but that can be done without really meaning it. If a person really means it, it will be reflected in his thinking, words, and actions. The book of Ruth gives us a picture of a kinsman-redeemer in action.
If you don't believe that Jesus took our place but rather bore our sins, then why does hell even need to exist? Also, if Jesus bore our sins, why was he not punished? Wouldn't he be responsible for our sins if he bears our sins?
The payment for our sins was death, but bodily death doesn't change a person's spiritual nature. The person's spiritual nature would still be disconnected from God. God created angels and all of us to exist forever and nothing can alter that. It was an amazing act of God—creating beings in his own image. God never undoes something he did, because everything he does is as good as it could possibly be already.

Having our sins paid for made it morally possible for God to save us, however, we don't only need his forgiveness. We also need our natures changed. We need God to give us a free gift: being reborn in Christ. Anything tainted with sin can't be cleansed. Since God clearly loves us (he sent his son to earth to pay for our sins with his death) he freely will give us a rebirth if we are willing to give him the moral right to do so, which only comes by accepting him as "my" God.
Or do you not believe in hell? If so, why are you a Christian and why should I care about any of this? If there is no hell aren't you better off hedging your bet and appeasing some other angry deity? If you believe Christianity because it's simply true, why haven't I seen your evidence or good arguments? If you have neither, why believe? Faith? What proposition couldn't be justified by faith? How, then, is faith something that leads to truth?
When taking the verses about hell in the context of the whole Bible, we see that hell is definitely real. People, Christians included, that don't feel eternal punishment is justified for anyone have not accepted the fact that God has "no choice" but to let people go there that have not been reborn with a nature compatible with God's nature. It would be immoral for God to cause them to cease to exist. The spiritual concept of God never breaks his promises can be used here to deduce that whatever God creates has an implicit promise that it is forever. (This concept appears in a variety of ways in Scripture.) When he created sentient beings it was so they would stay created forever.

The concept of annihilation is totally non-Christian earthy thinking. People seem "annihilated" when their bodies die (but they actually aren't; it is only their bodies). The idea that a judgment of guilty in the afterlife means annihilation is a projection of what we see happen on earth. In the next life, there is a parallel to bodily death, but it isn't annihilation—just as when we see a body on earth die, the person is not actually annihilated. Spiritual death after judgment is called "the second death" in Scripture and it is a reference to being cast into the lake of fire to experience the separation from God they demonstrated was their choice in life. Both death and destruction are words used to describe what happens when someone already dead dies.

After physical death, salvation by faith is no longer possible, because a person will then see God and have a full knowledge of God still with their sinful nature. This is exactly what happened with Satan, who cannot be redeemed, doesn't recognize his need to be redeemed, and doesn't want to be redeemed.

God is the executor of justice, but he is not the reason for that justice. It is terribly incorrect to view God as an judge who wants to punish evil people forever. God is the one who has done and is doing everything he can to save people from that. When we sin, it was our choice to sin (and confirm it is right that we should have Adam's fallen nature). Those that do not want to give God complete control over everything that they have and are are rejecting God for who he is (GOD and Creator "Father"). Instead people retain the nature that they had and have confirmed is the correct nature for them, rather than rejecting their sinful nature and coming under God's wing as a result of his gift of forgiveness, and receive rebirth and ceasing to be a slave to sin.

God is very generous. It is we who don't want to accept his generosity. Mankind's perspective has become more and more corrupt from persistent sin that, as you might expect, that which is good seems more evil than before, and that which is evil seems more good than before. It's not just how we perceive things with our thoughts and feelings, it is also how we experience "reality."
 
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The belief in "hell" as a place of fiery torment did not originate with the churches of Christendom, but came from ancient Babylon (that was started by Nimrod, Noah's great grandson, who opposed God, Gen 10:10), some 4,000 years ago. This and other false religious teachings were passed on to other nations, such as Egypt and Assyria., and then on down to our day.

In the book The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria by Morris Jastrow, it stated that both Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the "nether world.....as a place full of horrors......presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness".

Because of the failure to do any actual deep research into the Bible, the portrayal that there is a "hell" or "hellfire" has continued to be passed from generation to generation. The rendering of three Greek words, Hades (at Matt 11:23), Gehenna (at Matt 5:22), and Tartarus (at 2 Pet 2:4), by the King James Bible by the single word "hell" shows an inconsistency and lack of accurate translation.

So, is there a "hell" or "hellfire" whereby people are tormented forever ? In a word no. First off, the churches of Christendom teach that God created "hell", but that the Devil runs it. What does logic tell us ? How could it be assumed that God would create a place of everlasting fiery torment since his most dominate quality is love and then hand it over to his archenemy to run ?(1 John 4:8) Would any loving father torment his children even if they were wicked ? No. Wickedness can deserve death, not torment.

How many has considered the Bible book of Jeremiah concerning this ? At Jeremiah 7, because the Israelites had turned apostate, our Maker, Jehovah God, said of them: "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart".(Jer 7:31, King James Bible)

How could God be responsible for "hellfire" since something like this had "neither came into my heart" ? At Jeremiah 32, the language is even stronger: "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin".(Jer 32:35, King James Bible) God calls the burning of "sons and daughters in the fire" an abomination, a sin.

Hence, if God were actually the one who created "hellfire", then he is also a sinner, doing an "abomination" or detestable act of the greatest magnitude. But this could not be, for he is the epitome of perfection of holiness.(Isa 6:3) Jeremiah shows that God condemns burning anyone in a fire.

So, what is the meaning of the old English word of "hell" ? Webster's Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under "Hell" says: "from ....helan to conceal". Encarta Dictionary (of 2005 Microsoft Reference Library) says of "hell": "Old English hel(l). Ultimately from an indo-European word meaning "to conceal".

Hence, the original meaning of "hell" was not to roast something, but to conceal or place underground, such as "helling potatoes", putting them underground for safekeeping. However, the meaning of "hell" became that which was not intended.

Because many Bibles wrongly translated the Greek words Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus (and the Hebrew word Sheol) as "hell", in conjunction with Jesus words about fire, they wrongly assumed that there is a "hell" or everlasting place of fiery torment.

Hades means mankind's common grave that will release all its inhabitants (Rev 20:13), Gehenna means everlasting destruction (Matt 10:28) and Tartarus means a prisonlike, abased condition into which Jehovah God has cast the disobedient angels (2 Pet 2:4), called "dense darkness" at Jude 6.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Thanks, everyone, for the contributions but no one has given a response that an atheist can appreciate.

When I was a Christian I thought I knew why Jesus had to die. Now I'm more confused than ever on the issue. I do not know why the single most fundamental thing in Christianity is misunderstood, unknown, and/or not agreed upon. It's like you're all trying to study prime numbers and yet none of you even know the definition of a prime number.
 
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timbo3

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Thanks, everyone, for the contributions but no one has given a response that an atheist can appreciate.

When I was a Christian I thought I knew why Jesus had to die. Now I'm more confused than ever on the issue. I do not know why the single most fundamental thing in Christianity is misunderstood, unknown, and/or not agreed upon. It's like you're all trying to study prime numbers and yet none of you even know the definition of a prime number.

Are you looking for "the truth" or is there something else you are searching for ? The Bible establishes that the Bible "hell" is mankind's common grave, not a place of fiery torment. For example, at Revelation 20, it says: "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (Greek Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them......And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire".(Rev 20:13, 14, King James Bible)

What do we learn from this Scripture ? That "hell" gives up its dead, and those entombed there can receive a resurrection from the dead. Thus, no one remains in "hell" forever, and that "hell" itself, along with Adamic death, is cast into "the lake of fire" or eternally destroyed.

As has been written, three Greek words have been mistranslated as "hell", Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus by many Bibles. If you were an engineer, how critical is it to understand and grasp details ? Likewise, those who are sincerely interested in learning what the Bible really teaches will not allow preconceived ideas to blind them, but will seriously consider Scriptural details that will lead them to the right conclusion.

Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5 and 32:35 shows how God feels about burning people, but did you consider them ? And think about our Maker, Jehovah God's dominate quality - love. 1 John 4:8 says that "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love".(King James Bible)

Are not we appalled when we hear of people torturing someone. God is even more appalled because "God is love". And please note that it does not say "God has love", but that he is very epitome of love. At Exodus 3, Jehovah God said: "I have certainly seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their outcry because of those who force them to work; I well know the pains they suffer".(Ex 3:7, New World Translation)

Isaiah 66:24 has been used to say that God torments people, but had these ones looked at the context, they could have seen that this speaking about the nation of Israel that had apostasized or "fell away" from God.

This Scripture is pointing to these ones being thrown into a garbage dump on the southside of Jerusalem, the Valley of Hinnom, where the "carcasses of the men who rebelled against me" would be thrown into, and whereby sulpher was added to the burning fire to insure that everything was consumed and worms ate what the fire did not devour.

Jesus spoke of this in an illustrative way, using the Greek word Gehenna (Greek form of Hebrew Geh Hinnom), to picture everlasting destruction, from which there is no resurrection.(see Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28) The "lake of fire" is synonymous with Gehenna. So, is it not very important that you understand what the Bible "hell" is, or else you remain "in the dark" and confused.

Hence, there is no "hellfire", but there is eternal destruction. There is no "hell" that torments those in it, for Ecclesiastes 9 says: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all.....their love and hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun".(Ecc 9:5, 6)

And consider Psalms 146: "Do not put your trust in princes nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. His spirit (or active life force) goes out, he returns to the ground; On that day his thoughts do perish".(Ps 146:3, 4) How can a person be tormented when all senses have stopped working, in which even our thoughts have quit ?

Thus, a person, upon death, returns to the same lifeless state they were before being conceived in the womb. Jehovah told our original forefather, Adam, after his rebellion: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust (not torment) you will return".(Gen 3:19) Adam returned to the same non-existent state he was before God created him, not relegated to a place of torment.
 
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Based on Ehrman's "How Jesus Became God", the earliest Christians believed that Jesus became divine when God resurrected Him. In other words, the execution of Jesus was not itself redemptive. The redemptive thing was to become part of the winning team through baptism and repentance. The resurrection of Jesus was like a token of the victory to come that would be shared by all the followers of Jesus.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thanks, everyone, for the contributions but no one has given a response that an atheist can appreciate.

When I was a Christian I thought I knew why Jesus had to die. Now I'm more confused than ever on the issue. I do not know why the single most fundamental thing in Christianity is misunderstood, unknown, and/or not agreed upon. It's like you're all trying to study prime numbers and yet none of you even know the definition of a prime number.

If it seems like Christians are singing in an off-key cacophony about Hell, or other doctrines, then I'd propose to you that it may just be they do so because they often do not approach the Bible with a mindset and interpretive framework incorporating at least some of the conceptual verities of the ancient Jews. No, we tend to read the Bible with a Modernist set of assumptions and an attending conceptual template.

Add to this the fact that the Epistemological Indices within the Bible direct us to realize our need to pray to God to gain a fuller understanding. Of course, we can obtain some partial understanding of the Scriptures on our own, but to attain an understanding by which we feel we can actually enter into faith requires an act of God. It usually isn't something a fellow Christian will just be able to place in your eager hands.

Don't ask me how He does it. If I knew that, it would no longer be a mystery maintained by the Sovereign hand of God.

So yes, it IS God's Will that some of us remain confused about His Will, that is, if we persist in rebellion. Call it the Divine Dimmer Switch. It can go UP ... and it can go DOWN!!! o_O

Besides, if you don't know that the answer really is "42," then I don't know what else to tell you! :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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