Questions about Holy Tradition

[JM]

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Does Holy Tradition ever contradict itself?

Example, does Holy Tradition contradict Holy Scripture?

Is Tradition something the Eastern Orthodox are allowed to ignore?

Example, the Eastern Orthodox church holds the council at Nice as inspired but rejects the canons of Nicea on the date of Easter.

Can Holy Tradition be trusted?

Example, the inspiration of Revelation was at first denied by Tradition and later accepted as inspired.

Can you define Holy Tradition?

Thank you.


jm

 

[Cappadocious]

Does Holy Tradition even contradict itself?

It includes the Scriptures, so yes.

Ever heard the one about the Tamud and two men coming down the same chimney? It's like that.

https://aleph.org/resources/the-rabbi-is-in-two-men-come-down-the-same-chimney

 

[JM]

Great. Holy Tradition contradicts itself. So, competing Holy Traditions found in Roman Catholicism are perfectly valid.

Care to take a crack at the rest of the questions?

Thanks for sorting that out Cappa.

jm

 

[~Anastasia~]

It includes the Scriptures, so yes.

Ever heard the one about the Tamud and two men coming down the same chimney? It's like that.

https://aleph.org/resources/the-rabbi-is-in-two-men-come-down-the-same-chimney

I see what you did there ...

But I was planning to subscribe anyway.

 

[buzuxi02]

Does scripture contradict itself?
In some places it seems so, because those scriptures record variations on that Tradition. Sometimes its simply a need for correct interpretation.
We find in the infancy narratives of Matthew and Luke two distinct traditions. The totality of the corpus of Apostolic Tradition preserves all three variants on the infancy story as a synthesis. Likewise there seems to be a variation in the tradition of how Judas Iscariot died etc.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does Holy Tradition ever contradict itself?

not in the way many folks think. often it seems to contradict when it doesn't (ie what buz pointed out).

Example, does Holy Tradition contradict Holy Scripture?

nope, if it did, it would not be holy.

Is Tradition something the Eastern Orthodox are allowed to ignore?

nope

Example, the Eastern Orthodox church holds the council at Nice as inspired but rejects the canons of Nicea on the date of Easter.

some canons are dogmatic, some are practical.

Can Holy Tradition be trusted?

yes, Holy Tradition gave us the word Trinity

Example, the inspiration of Revelation was at first denied by Tradition and later accepted as inspired.

no, and using that argument you could make the same case for Hebrews. but in either case (even if what you said is true), it is Holy Tradition that DOES validate both books. the Christians could not look to the Scriptures, since they were not compiled in the early days.

Can you define Holy Tradition?

the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church

 

[buzuxi02]

__________________________________________________________________​

Example, the Eastern Orthodox church holds the council at Nice as inspired but rejects the canons of Nicea on the date of Easter.

jm

The Orthodox Church does hold to the calculation approved at Nicea which is based on the solar-lunar cycle of the Alexandrian Church. Absolutely none of the 20 canons of Nicea deals with Pascha.

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON



Moved from TAW.


MOD HAT OFF

 

[JM]

Question: Can you define Holy Tradition?

Answer: the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church

Which church and where is it?

How does one find it?

In a history book?

Do we trace Holy Tradition by political triumphs (see the Controversy Over Images)?

If this statement is true, "you could make the same case for Hebrews" then Tradition was wrong. Admittedly so for it had to be corrected.

As for the Jewish fable of the two men in the chimney...it promotes relativism and says nothing. If it is just a matter of perspective than I am completely correct. So are you. So is the Roman Catholic version of Holy Tradition. Then again I could be completely incorrect. You could be completely incorrect and the Roman Catholic could be completely incorrect.

Now, wash your face! Or don't. It doesn't matter because you cannot know truth. I'm glad you folks admit that Tradition is just subjective and cannot be known with any certainty. That's what I was driving at anyway I just thought it would take more time.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Which church and where is it?

the Orthodox Church

How does one find it?

any search engine will let you know

In a history book?

you can, Orthodoxy has been around for 2000 years

Do we trace Holy Tradition by political triumphs (see the Controversy Over Images)?

we can, if those triumphs were on the side of Truth, such as icons. you can still find icons from the first centuries, and even in ancient synagogues (in addition to the Tabernacle and Temple).

If this statement is true, "you could make the same case for Hebrews" then Tradition was wrong. Admittedly so for it had to be corrected.

no the Hebrew Tradition did not need to be corrected since it pointed to Christ. the Bill of Rights did not change the Constitution or correct it in any way. it merely clarified what the Founding Fathers were expressing for our government in the Constitution.

As for the Jewish fable of the two men in the chimney...it promotes relativism and says nothing. If it is just a matter of perspective than I am completely correct. So are you. So is the Roman Catholic version of Holy Tradition. Then again I could be completely incorrect. You could be completely incorrect and the Roman Catholic could be completely incorrect.

actually if you read the bottom of the Chimney line, it has nothing to do with relativism.

Now, wash your face! Or don't. It doesn't matter because you cannot know truth.

you can know truth if you know Christ as a Person. this point is meaningless.

I'm glad you folks admit that Tradition is just subjective and cannot be known with any certainty. That's what I was driving at anyway I just thought it would take more time.

actually no one did. all that we know is your lack of ability to read a blog post all the way to the end, and then come up with snarky conclusions based on that lack.

but whatevs

 

[JM]

Yes, I get it.

It is much clearer now.

Holy Tradition is the subjective experience of the Eastern Church. It reminds me of Vedanta.

Got it.

 

[Lukaris]

It is by tradition within the church in which our faith is upheld in order for us to worship the Lord Jesus Christ and live by it as He told us to. While there may not be absolute certainty as to when we worship our Lord's resurrection on Pascha (Easter), it is by the rule of faith that we worship the Lord in His resurrection and good order within the church when to do this. For the Nativity there are new and old calendar observances and the church is still united. Truly there is variation but Orthodoxy is upheld as expressed by its more detailed definition: of right worship and right faith.

Our aspects of faith upheld by tradition are not subjective as expressed in the creed:

http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-symbol-of-faith/nicene-creed

Our basics of living out our faith in alms giving, prayer, & fasting are given by the Lord ( Matthew 6:1-18 ). Note there is no specific schedule as to when to do these but we should want to do this since the Lord told us to. Note, for ex., on fasting the Lord says when we fast in Matthew 6:16 but not when to specifically; we follow tradition in the practical aspect of our Lord's command in the general Wednesday and Friday observances. These basic observances were already recorded in the Didache (ca. 90 AD):

Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever..

Pray this three times each day.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

Yes, there may be some confusion among us in our fallen state to properly observe tradition but it is by the Holy Spirit that we are able to live by faith in which by grace we are saved.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, I get it.

It is much clearer now.

Holy Tradition is the subjective experience of the Eastern Church. It reminds me of Vedanta.

Got it.

Sadly, you still don't get it?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sadly, you still don't get it?

And forgive me ... I don't mean this sarcastically, but sincerely. I'm not poking fun at you or trying to insult you "not getting it" but I am always saddened when I see blindness to the face of so much good and truth and what is so helpful to mankind for their salvation.

You feel triumph for having found what you think is a "hole" that you can punch through with philosophy or logic? The fact is, that action could be performed much more satisfactorily against any number of denominational churches, but if what one attacks is true, and one walks away with a sense of personal satisfaction for finding what one thinks is an error, does that mean one is automatically right and knowing truth?

I have a feeling I am unable to express what I want here, and this won't make any sense. But really, please forgive me in that I didn't mean to insult. You simply aren't asking the right questions.

One could just as easily argue about the days of the week of the Crucifixion, and dismiss the Bible and Christianity as a whole on that basis. But they would have gained nothing, nor would they find any truth.

Peace to you.

 

[buzuxi02]

Tradition is passing down that which was received. The bible is tradition thats why we dont add the Gospel of Thomas (or additional works) even though some today think its an authentic book.
We dont use saltines for the Eucharist because this has never been handed down to us. We only use extra virgin olive oil for anointing because there has never been a tradition of using shortening or motor oil etc.

 

[JM]

Thank you Laukaris and buzuxi02 for your replies. They actually answered my question and didn't retreat to "mystery" and other worldliness.

I am satisfied with the answers I've been given.


Thanks folks.

 

[JM]

Just found his post...

And forgive me ... I don't mean this sarcastically, but sincerely. I'm not poking fun at you or trying to insult you "not getting it" but I am always saddened when I see blindness to the face of so much good and truth and what is so helpful to mankind for their salvation.

Thank you for your condescension.

You feel triumph...

No, not at all. I feel satisfied with the answers given for they reaffirm what I knew when I left the Eastern Orthodox denomination years ago.

I have a feeling I am unable to express what I want here, and this won't make any sense. But really, please forgive me in that I didn't mean to insult. You simply aren't asking the right questions.

I'm not insulted and completely understand. Online discussions can seem heated when they really are not. ArmyMatt and I disagree on a lot and we have sarcastic exchanges online but I like him. He's a fine fella.

jm

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just found his post...



Thank you for your condescension.



No, not at all. I feel satisfied with the answers given for they reaffirm what I knew when I left the Eastern Orthodox denomination years ago.



I'm not insulted and completely understand. Online discussions can seem heated when they really are not. ArmyMatt and I disagree on a lot and we have sarcastic exchanges online but I like him. He's a fine fella.

jm

Wow. Condescension. Not at all, and I'm very sorry you feel that way. Truly, I am sorry, but I doubt you can understand why.

 

[JM]

Wow. Condescension. Not at all, and I'm very sorry you feel that way. Truly, I am sorry, but I doubt you can understand why.

I was being cheeky. My sarcasm and joking around comes off a lot better in person.

We are cool. I'm not offended and I hope you're not either.

jm

 

[~Anastasia~]

I was being cheeky. My sarcasm and joking around comes off a lot better in person.

We are cool. I'm not offended and I hope you're not either.

jm

Not at all offended, no.

Intonation is lost in written communication. I fear that I might offend you if I explained how I really feel, which is grieved for your sake.

But if I may, God be with you.