yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Maybe I misunderstood then. Who thinks God is unjust in any way (or at least who said God is unjust?)
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Maybe I misunderstood then. Who thinks God is unjust in any way (or at least who said God is unjust?)No one is saying that there is not punishment. That is not the issue. The issue is the idea of an unjust punishment which goes far beyond any sin committed in chronological time.
How could satan sin without fallen nature, then?We sin because of our sinful nature given to us from Adam. We can't blame Adam because we choose to listen to the sinful nature through free will. Without the sinful nature we couldn't choose sin.
That scripture does not say all of mankind was brought into sin with Adam. Does not say we are sinners by nature. The "creature" is not us. We are the sons of God or children of God, a separate group in the scripture. So where do you think this supports in born sin nature?
Yeah, we don't believe in it in the way that Western theology teaches it. It isn't a place, Dante was a nutcase, and God is not some sadist who is out for vengeance. He is loving, heavenly Father who desires the healing of all His sick children so that they may come Home and live with Him in love.
Correction: In Adam ALL were made sinners, therefore, in Christ ALL are made righteous. The word "many" in this verse must mean all for all are under the condemnation of sin. This is only just and fair.
And God does not WANT people to be saved. It is His divine, omnipotent, and HOLY WILL!!! Can any created creature defy His will? If so, then He is not omnipotent, is He? And if not omnipotent, then what assurance do we have that Satan could not somehow in the future, find a way to defeat our all-powerful God? If a mere man can do this, then would not a fallen angel somehow find a way?
This whole idea goes back to creatio ex nilho, as David Bentley Hart speaks of in his new book. That is, creation is ordained to a telos, a final end and purpose. Does God bring all His holy will to pass, asks the catechism? The answer is yes, therefore, if any man is ultimately lost, then it was never God's will to save that man in the first place, and then, going back to creation, it was God's will that the man (men) not be saved when they were created.
And thus, the Calvinists are correct. God creates men to damn them for no other reason than His sheer good pleasure (and enjoyment?). Which would make Him not love.....but a monster.
Questions Without Answers On Hell
Questions Without Answers
- As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)
- If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?
- Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?
- As God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?
- If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)
- As "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)
- As "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)
- As we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)
- Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God HAD been overcome by evil?
- If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?
- Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?
- As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)
- Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?
- If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?
- Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)
Your appeal to the Early Fathers as your standard by which you defend hell strikes me as a real piece of hypocrisy unless you belong to the Orthodox Church. The Early Fathers taught absolutely nothing which could be construed as modern Evangelicalism (non-denominationalism).
One other thing. The Eastern Church was part of the Roman Empire and thus was very much influenced by the Roman mindset. This is why there were three different eschatologies being taught in five different theological schools for the first five centuries of the Church: Universalism, ECT, and Annihilationism. You can find Fathers of the Church who taught ECT and you will also find Fathers such as St. Gregory of Nyssa who taught Universalism. It all depends on the cultural milieu in which they were raised and who taught them.
Correction: In Adam ALL were made sinners, therefore, in Christ ALL are made righteous. The word "many" in this verse must mean all for all are under the condemnation of sin. This is only just and fair.
And God does not WANT people to be saved. It is His divine, omnipotent, and HOLY WILL!!! Can any created creature defy His will? If so, then He is not omnipotent, is He? And if not omnipotent, then what assurance do we have that Satan could not somehow in the future, find a way to defeat our all-powerful God? If a mere man can do this, then would not a fallen angel somehow find a way?
This whole idea goes back to creatio ex nilho, as David Bentley Hart speaks of in his new book. That is, creation is ordained to a telos, a final end and purpose. Does God bring all His holy will to pass, asks the catechism? The answer is yes, therefore, if any man is ultimately lost, then it was never God's will to save that man in the first place, and then, going back to creation, it was God's will that the man (men) not be saved when they were created.
And thus, the Calvinists are correct. God creates men to damn them for no other reason than His sheer good pleasure (and enjoyment?). Which would make Him not love.....but a monster.
Your appeal to the Early Fathers as your standard by which you defend hell strikes me as a real piece of hypocrisy unless you belong to the Orthodox Church.
No, the redemption of the children/sons of God are mentioned and That refers to us.Dear D.M.: Of course that Scripture does not say all mankind is brought into sin with Adam. We must read a mite earlier in the letter of St. Paul (Rom 5).
The "creature" is us, every last one of us!
That is everything BUT us. They were subject because of Adams sin. They still are but don’t sin. We sin. Therefore we are active not “subject” which is passive.The creature = the ktisis
The ktisis=
Anything created.
The sum of ALL things created.
The creature WAS MADE Subject to futility NOT willingly
As written. No extras added.How do you understand the story of Adam and Eve and the fall of man?
Adam and Eve didn’t have a sinful nature and they sinned. They sinned because if the reasons James gives. They wanted and did not have. They did not have cause they did not ask.We sin because of our sinful nature given to us from Adam. We can't blame Adam because we choose to listen to the sinful nature through free will. Without the sinful nature we couldn't choose sin.
That scripture does not say all of mankind was brought into sin with Adam. Does not say we are sinners by nature. The "creature" is not us. We are the sons of God or children of God, a separate group in the scripture. So where do you think this supports in born sin nature?
By the way, I prefer James' explanation for sin: "What causes conflicts and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from the passions at war within you? 2You crave what you do not have; you kill and covet, but are unable to obtain it. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3And when you do ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may squander it on your pleasures."
How come James did not blame a sin nature when discussing the subject?
God has different responsibilities than we do. The police might require private persons not to arrest or hold others in their own personally built prison but it doesn’t mean they don’t arrest some and hold them in jail. Doesn’t mean the standard is different. Means the responsiblities are different.
No, the redemption of the children/sons of God are mentioned and That refers to us.
That is everything BUT us. They were subject because of Adams sin. They still are but don’t sin. We sin. Therefore we are active not “subject” which is passive.
Dear Aiki: Do you know the ONLY Scripture that speaks of "everlasting punishment" is relating to not the wicked at all. In fact the punishment is to two clean animals, not one clean and the other unclean.
And what are the conditions for aionios kolasis?
It’s not a try, it’s true. He is the Judge of all the Earth and he said that vengeance (or justice) is His to execute, not ours.LOL! Nice try.
Your first sentence is the best. James doesn’t come out and say it because none of them thought it. Otherwise this is really long and it’s obvious you are not open to another opinion.Hello,
He doesn't come right and say it. James shows the sin that is already there. Selfishness, "passions at war within you", Coveting. Coveting covers a multitude of sins, adultery, theft, murder...these are all things that you take that which wasn't yours from the beginning.
Not praying properly, not communicating with God, and when it's done, it's done again for selfish reasons. Not for the Glory of God.
Word tells us that what man thinks and does is right in his/her mind, but it's the way unto death.
That rebelling comes from somewhere, We are born with sin in our hearts, it's shown all the way into early childhood. (And no, I do not believe God sends children to hell, that's a whole different subject)
You ever had a child in hand who wanted a toy or something that you had. And you told him/her No, they couldn't have it, and BAM! they go into a temper tantrum, yelling and screaming, moaning and groaning as if they were physically injured. Well, that's typically called lying, because you never touched them. It's also called selfishness, they are young, and i'm sure mom and dad didn't teach them to do that, in most cases. It's also violence, the only reason why that child isn't physically hurting you is because your bigger than him or her.
Now do they know they are sinning? No, I don't believe that. They don't understand that there are consequences for that action. But, once learned that there are consequences for his or her actions, and understand that the choices they make are right or wrong. Then we can question as to where their soul is with God and start teaching them the way of God.
Which is biblical, We are to teach our children about Christ, who he is, what he did and why. When we do,and even if they leave home, they will return to those teachings. Or be reminded of them through conviction by the Holy Spirit.
Scripture tells us Death came but by Adam first. This death is speaking of the Sin that Adam did.
Romans 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for [a]until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
So yes the Word does tell us that sin is there, through Adam.
We know we sin because of the Law, that God gave Moses and for what he has placed on our heart from the beginning.
The Law is the School master that brings us to Christ.
As I said, laying the blame on Adam is very popular. But since you need to borrow responses, no point in trying to discuss.
It’s not a try, it’s true. He is the Judge of all the Earth and he said that vengeance (or justice) is His to execute, not ours.
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