Questions about Free Will"

[Adstar]

Hello Discarded truths

Although we have been flawed with the knowledge of sin we still have the free will to either believe our sin is ok or our sin is wrong. We have the free will to accept the Will of God or reject the will of God.

Not only the knowledge, but the TENDENCY to do so. That affects our decision making process immensely

Yes it does effect our decision making process immensely. A person might have a very bad temper and lash out at someone hurting them and feel no remorse for doing it, while another person might have the same weakness but react with remorse when it gets the better of them.. Both people are greatly affected by their bad tempers but they are very different in attitude toward their condition. One will see it as ok and will lash out whenever the desire arises, while the other will be remorseful and try there best to control their temper. These two people have a different spirit.

Death/punishment is a result of our gaining of the knowledge of Good and evil. It is more like a result that is not good rather than a punishment. Its all about the way you look at things i guess. The real eternal punishment comes not from ones evil deeds but from ones love of their evil deeds.


God has provided a way for those who hate sin to be Redeemed from the eternal consequence of Adam and Eves choice to rebel against the will of God.

Ok, God gave us the power to reason, and to question things that seem illogical, and we are born with sin, so at some point we WILL commit sins because that’s our nature, also God allows the devil and his “demons” to roam the earth trying to deceive and dissuade people from making the right choices, personal experiences that causes disbelief in a deity, and that we are faulty, extremely flawed, for the most part ignorant human beings, so with that weighting on us, What kind of God would think that we would be equipped to make such an heavy choice about where we would spend the rest of eternity at?

We are not powerless against the deception of satan and demons, God has not left us without guidance. People are born with a sin flaw but they also know both Good as well as Evil. People have a conscience. So we are not as ignorant as you may think. If people want to follow evil then they will shout down their consciences over time, but the Word of God can and does ignite the consciences of millions who have had their consciences dulled. God has equipped us with the basic freedom to either Love what is good or love what is evil. People are equipped to make that heavy choice; you are equipped to make that heavy choice. As has already been said it is not about the flaw its about how we feel about our flaws that leads us to either prideful rebellion or repentance and salvation.

We can’t even fathom what eternity is, so wouldn’t you say it is rather cruel to give us this option to choose, then creating the world in such a way where mankind will essentially fail and be corrupted by sin, knowing full well that most people are going to mess up and make the wrong choice?

Eternity is forever and ever without end. Although we cannot comprehend such a thing we know that our time in our current state of being is nothing compared to our future existence. Without the option to choose what is our existence worth? Nothing, we would be nothing but zombies. This way we are real beings with a choice. If people make the choice of sin and rebellion that is their decision and they reveal their love of evil by doing this. Their eternal destination is upon their own heads as is satan and his angels. The choice is yours as much as it is theirs; you have the free will to choose eternal life with God. So choose it and live forever more.

So while we are flawed we still have the free will to admit we are flawed or to proudly say our flaws are not flaws.

God has an eternal perspective. Eternity makes all of the universes history as a blink of an eye in comparison.
Once again it’s about how you look at things. From a life times perspective the history of human existence is very long, but our perspective is not Gods perspective. Clearly God believes it is all worth it from His perspective.




But God also has our perspective on time and eternity...He supposedly became human and walked on earth, so For a period of time he had our mindset. God knows that we can't even concieve what enternity is...and he knows the vast difference between our view of time, and His.

Yes God experienced time as we know and did so before the time of Jesus and after the time of Jesus when He interacted with the prophets,. but He still had an eternal perspective while experiencing out time. So He never really was limited to our mindsets on time, He was still connected to His eternal nature. Once again while we cannot imagine eternity we do not really have to be able to imagine eternity to have no doubt that it is far more significant that the time we exist in this flesh form.

While He May possibly see it as being worth it, he knows that we don't see that way at all.

We know enough to know what is more important. And God will give enough knowledge to guide those who love the truth to come to Him. Of course we know eternity is worth far more than our life times, infinitely more. Just because we cannot comprehend eternity does not mean we cannot grasp its overriding importance Discarded truths



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: did you have a good weekend?

 

[DiscardedTruths]

You don't see it because you're looking in the wrong places. You can't get past the sinful world to notice what HE has done and is doing for us. You're so worried about people that you believe He is sending to hell, when in fact, they are going to Hell because of their sin, not because of His doing at all. We all deserve hell. He died on the cross so that there can be salvation.

The world is an extremely awful, horrible place to be right now, why would God even create a world that would end up like this, what purpose does it serve? Why do we all deserve Hell? Why does God need a blood sacrifice to ensure salvation for ONLY those that turn to Him, couldn’t He have created a more successful alternate method so that everyone receives Salvation, or where everyone at some point in their lives would choose Salvation on there own terms? There is probably an infinite number of ways God could save Everyone, why this way? Jesus didn’t actually save everyone, because there are supposedly people in Hell, and millions more going to Hell. He gave us Opportunity, but that’s it. You are right; I don’t see how I can be grateful for God setting up a world in this way, infesting it with sin, letting the devil have reign over the world, and then only saving those that worship and serve Him…and those that don’t believe because of a Multitude of reasons, get thrown into Hell with out a second thought….I fail to see where the trait of All-lovingness and being infinitely Good comes into play. Unless our definition of Morality, Goodness, and Love is exceedingly different from God. I think that Truly saving someone is doing everything in your Power to let them understand and have their eyes opened. Knowing that Faith just won’t cut for some people…so actually taking the extra effort and showing those that don’t believe, or those that refuse to believe. I don’t believe that God has done that. If God wanted every eye opened to the truth, then it would happen.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Most rational people When given a choice between eternal bliss and eternal damnation, and they knew that this choice was Real...then I would assume most if not everyone would choose Eternal bliss. But that requires irrefutable Knowledge of those two places, we don't have that. We can only assume and have faith, while some people are ok with this, a lot of people aren't and they have serious serious doubts. God only seems clear to those that Believe...If you truely don't believe in your heart...is that neccessarly your fault? Is Hellfire a suitable punishment for reasonable doubt?

 

[DiscardedTruths]

3-I may, if granted that power. But then, as you stated, I am not omnipotent nor omiscient. Perhaps becoming a prostitute (am I spelling that right?) would allow her to, later in life, create an organization to save thousands of women across the world, and by not giving her that expeirence, by saving my daughter from temporary suffering, I would have ruined the lives of thousands.

Or she could catch some sexually transmitted disease, die from AIDS, or pass it along to dozens of men, become addicted to crack, heroin and OD, be beaten, abused and rape, ect....

IF you were able to foresee the former, and know that in the end it would Do more good then harm...that would be a little more understandable. You can't...but God can, and the latter happens a bit more often then what you suggested...if we are truely God's children, why doesn't He have our well-being in mind? Sometimes you have to step in, for the greater good. Not doing a thing, when you have the opportunity and power to do so....is morally reprehensible

 

[YourChild]

if we are truely God's children, why doesn't He have our well-being in mind? Sometimes you have to step in, for the greater good. Not doing a thing, when you have the opportunity and power to do so....is morally reprehensible

I am not sure who you are replying to. it would help if you quoted. But to answer your question, God is always ready and willing to help you during your hardship. But it is up to the person to accept His help. If you do not believe in Him then you are simply telling Him you don't need His help. If someone came up to you and said, "I need you to help me with such and such", but all along you knew that THAT person doubts your abilities and willingness to help, what would you think then? how would you feel, that such person is already doubting you yet still comes to ask for your help? God is always there and ready with open arms to help you with things you are incapable of doing all by yourself. He doesn't spend time doing little petty things like granting the request of a nonbeliever when the person ask Hiim to make the cup turn over or to make the spoon jump. thats just really disrepectful and rediculous.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Yes it does effect our decision making process immensely. A person might have a very bad temper and lash out at someone hurting them and feel no remorse for doing it, while another person might have the same weakness but react with remorse when it gets the better of them.. Both people are greatly affected by their bad tempers but they are very different in attitude toward their condition. One will see it as ok and will lash out whenever the desire arises, while the other will be remorseful and try there best to control their temper. These two people have a different spirit.

Yes, I agree...but those that are remorseful and try to control their temper doesn't mean that they have a God-ordianed or the Holy spirit in them. They could just as easily be secular people trying to make the most out of life and their situations, and bettering themselves.

We are not powerless against the deception of satan and demons, God has not left us without guidance. People are born with a sin flaw but they also know both Good as well as Evil. People have a conscience. So we are not as ignorant as you may think. If people want to follow evil then they will shout down their consciences over time, but the Word of God can and does ignite the consciences of millions who have had their consciences dulled. God has equipped us with the basic freedom to either Love what is good or love what is evil. People are equipped to make that heavy choice; you are equipped to make that heavy choice. As has already been said it is not about the flaw its about how we feel about our flaws that leads us to either prideful rebellion or repentance and salvation.

It's an unwarranted Flaw to begin with, and that flaw, prevents us from having absolute uninfluenced Free Will. iIf there as undeniable proof of a God and Heaven and Hell, then turning your back on that would be prideful rebellion, but turning against something that may or may not even exist..is doubt. Many disbelievers attempt to avoid what is deemed as sins, and do their best to not to be engulfed by it, not for God, but for themselves and the people around them.

Eternity is forever and ever without end. Although we cannot comprehend such a thing we know that our time in our current state of being is nothing compared to our future existence. Without the option to choose what is our existence worth? Nothing, we would be nothing but zombies. This way we are real beings with a choice. If people make the choice of sin and rebellion that is their decision and they reveal their love of evil by doing this. Their eternal destination is upon their own heads as is satan and his angels. The choice is yours as much as it is theirs; you have the free will to choose eternal life with God. So choose it and live forever more.

In our lifetime we make millons and millions of choices, but choice of this magnitude and severity I believe shouldn't be reserved for us, because we Are NOT ready or equipped enough to even begin to make a choice like this. Who do you think would really complain about living blissfully in Heaven, after they have experienced it and know it to be true? I don't believe it makes you a zombie...Many things happen to us, whether we choose it or not...why can't this be one of them? What Good is Hell going to do? Even if those in Hell change....and obviously see their mistake, there is no chance of redemption...The Punishment Does not fit the crime on any scale.

Yes God experienced time as we know and did so before the time of Jesus and after the time of Jesus when He interacted with the prophets,. but He still had an eternal perspective while experiencing out time. So He never really was limited to our mindsets on time, He was still connected to His eternal nature. Once again while we cannot imagine eternity we do not really have to be able to imagine eternity to have no doubt that it is far more significant that the time we exist in this flesh form.

Question:: If Jesus was supposesdly God, and if on earth He didn't have the mindset of us humans, and was connected to his nature as God, then did He really suffer, in the way we suffer? Did he truely hurt the way we hurt?

We know enough to know what is more important. And God will give enough knowledge to guide those who love the truth to come to Him. Of course we know eternity is worth far more than our life times, infinitely more. Just because we cannot comprehend eternity does not mean we cannot grasp its overriding importance Discarded truths

We may see how important something is, but if we don't understand it..then what does that mean?

 

[DiscardedTruths]

..Repeated post

 

[DiscardedTruths]

I don't believe that we are all tainted by sin because of Adam...every person has responsibility for the action of Adam and Eve.


So are you saying only Some are tainted by sin from Adam and Eve? And why do we have to bear the responsibility for the action of Adam and Eve? Is that fair or just?

God knows that if you or me, or anyone, was put into that garden at the dawn of creation, we'd have done exactly the same. So we sinned on that day too.


How do you know what God knows, and why do you think that is? Because God planned it?

 

[DiscardedTruths]

There's a theological explanation for the Problem of Evil, the Augustinian theodicy. It says that the Lord gave us free will, creating sin, so that we chose either a life with him, or a life of sin. This makes our relationship with him worth something, instead of something forced and fake.

Even after you choose a Life with God, you still sin. That's what orginial sin does..you have the inclination to sin every day of your life, until death. It prevents you have completely overcomming sin. Why would God do something like this? There are times in our lives we are forced to do something that we *Think* we wouldn't want to do, because of ignorance..or any other number of factors...But it turned out for the best. If God wants everyone in Heaven with Him... Then this would be the prime opportunity. I think a evidently fairer Choice would be for God is send us all to Heaven after we died, and then If aftering knowing, seeing and understanding...if we wanted to be rellibious and say I would rather go to hell, then I wouldn't see any fault in God doing this. But we don't have this chance....all we have are assumptions...and that isn't good enough for some people, and I don't understand why God doesn't realize this.

It's called the 'vale of soulmaking', sin creates stronger and better people...it does good for our souls. I believe this is why he doesn't just destroy Satan.

Or it does the exact opposite and many innocent people suffer needlessly because of it.

 

[cm24]

IF you were able to foresee the former, and know that in the end it would Do more good then harm...that would be a little more understandable. You can't...but God can, and the latter happens a bit more often then what you suggested...if we are truely God's children, why doesn't He have our well-being in mind? Sometimes you have to step in, for the greater good. Not doing a thing, when you have the opportunity and power to do so....is morally reprehensible

Even if she didn't form such an organization, even if she suffered all her life, it would be helpful to Mankind, if she offered it to Christ, no matter what the suffering was.

I think you have taken hold of the "me, me, me" feeling of our times. It is not about me!! It is about him who is most high. Or the protestant "Jesus and Me" mentality. THe Church, and this includes all christians, to varying degress are the one body of Christ. Worship is Corperate, not individualistic. To say that I want what is most pleasurable to Me is a statement loaded with selfishness. Just because my duaghter might suffer, does not mean it is a bad thing!! Christ saved us yes, but he saved us by giving our suffering a redemptive value, if we offer them with Christ on the Cross, in addition to the forgivness of PAST sins.

A different example might better explain what I mean-

Two women in Russia have babys. One's name is Vladimer Lenin, the other Jacob Peter Martens. Lenin grows up to be the leader of the Bolshevik's, while Jacob grows up to be a farmer. Lenin becomes the dictator of Russia, while Jacob meets a young girl, they fall in love and have a boy, named Jake. Meanwhile, in europe, a poor man shoots a prince (we won't go into thier details, even if we had known them) and starts a war, and a young man joins the Russian army on his way to commanding his own troop.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Bolsheviks have taken almost all of what Jacob and his family had, and they are left with little. One day, while jacob and his wife are away, and Jake is in charge, the young captain brings his troop to their yard, forces the family into the barn, steals a cow and butchersit in thier living room for food for his troop. This finnaly makes the family leave Russia for Canada. Why Jacob chose Canada instead of Brazil like some of his family, I will have to wait to hear.

Now let's move quickly. Jacob marries, has two kids. one has two boys, the other, my father, has one. One of my cousins goes to Saskatoon for school, and invties me to a function, were I meet his freind, now my wife. She leads me to chritianity, then Catholicism, I help her to strengthen her faith. We have a baby girl.

Lenin's regime killed thousands of people, a lot of them christians, some of them my own family. But if it were not for that, I would not be here, nor my father, nor my Daughter.

who can know the mind of God? when I start to feel myself questioning him, I do, but I remind myself of who he is, and because of that, he can do no wrong.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Even if she didn't form such an organization, even if she suffered all her life, it would be helpful to Mankind, if she offered it to Christ, no matter what the suffering was.

I think you have taken hold of the "me, me, me" feeling of our times. It is not about me!! It is about him who is most high. Or the protestant "Jesus and Me" mentality. THe Church, and this includes all christians, to varying degress are the one body of Christ. Worship is Corperate, not individualistic. To say that I want what is most pleasurable to Me is a statement loaded with selfishness. Just because my duaghter might suffer, does not mean it is a bad thing!! Christ saved us yes, but he saved us by giving our suffering a redemptive value, if we offer them with Christ on the Cross, in addition to the forgivness of PAST sins.

A different example might better explain what I mean-

Two women in Russia have babys. One's name is Vladimer Lenin, the other Jacob Peter Martens. Lenin grows up to be the leader of the Bolshevik's, while Jacob grows up to be a farmer. Lenin becomes the dictator of Russia, while Jacob meets a young girl, they fall in love and have a boy, named Jake. Meanwhile, in europe, a poor man shoots a prince (we won't go into thier details, even if we had known them) and starts a war, and a young man joins the Russian army on his way to commanding his own troop.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Bolsheviks have taken almost all of what Jacob and his family had, and they are left with little. One day, while jacob and his wife are away, and Jake is in charge, the young captain brings his troop to their yard, forces the family into the barn, steals a cow and butchersit in thier living room for food for his troop. This finnaly makes the family leave Russia for Canada. Why Jacob chose Canada instead of Brazil like some of his family, I will have to wait to hear.

Now let's move quickly. Jacob marries, has two kids. one has two boys, the other, my father, has one. One of my cousins goes to Saskatoon for school, and invties me to a function, were I meet his freind, now my wife. She leads me to chritianity, then Catholicism, I help her to strengthen her faith. We have a baby girl.

Lenin's regime killed thousands of people, a lot of them christians, some of them my own family. But if it were not for that, I would not be here, nor my father, nor my Daughter.

who can know the mind of God? when I start to feel myself questioning him, I do, but I remind myself of who he is, and because of that, he can do no wrong.

I don't know about this "me me me" feeling, I don't believe I feel this way? I think anyone would want a world free of suffering, pain, anguish and evil...not sure how selfish wanting that is? But I am beginning to except the fact, that sometimes bad things have to happen, either to mold us and make us wiser, or for the greater good....BUT I do seriously question what God's motives are...when there is Excessive and needless suffering, and death.
I'm sorry about what happened....that story makes me question more...
You're right No one can understand what goes through God's mind....But when I see reality for what it is...I just have to wonder...

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Because we are born into sin, our nature is to sin. But the choice to sin or not is still your's. Your nature draws you to sinning but you can also abstain from sins with the Spirit of God dwelling in you.

That is only after you believe and become a born-again Christian. What about beforehand?

 

[DiscardedTruths]

The Curse was placed on Adam and Eve and that is passed down throughout generations all the way till the end of time. God could chose to pull Adam and Eve to the side and say "hey you did so and so and I will punish just you 2" but I will give succeeding generations a "new" start from scratch in the Garden of Eden. Yes He could have done that too but why didn't He? Maybe its just a personal preference of His whole plan. Maybe He knows that even if every person has a fresh new start at the Garden of Eden, we all would have sold ourselves into sin anyways. Do you think you would've made the same mistake as Adam & Eve or do you think otherwise?

Personally I don't know and no one on this earth knows either....Maybe I wouldn't of made the same mistake....I am a completely different person then ..Eve..so I may not have been presauded by the Devil to eat the fruit. It was God's intention to have Adam and Eve eat from the Tree...then what exactly is God's real purpose, and reasoning for doing so?

Come to think of it, you are still rejecting God. How could you then assume that you would've done any better than Adam & Eve? Those who see and know evil but still reject it and chose to be with God are true Children of God. Those who only see good but never seen or know evil will probably get curious of what evil is and eventually sell themselves into evil, just like what Satan did to himself. Its sort of like a child that has been kept indoor by his parents all his life suddenly becomes a partying drunking wild kid once he moves away to college and live on his own. So maybe we are living in this world as it is because this is the sorting and weeding out process, to see who truly is rejecting evil to be with God.

For one thing, Adam and Eve have the obvious advantage of KNOWING God exists. No guessing, no assuming, no Just believing..They KNEW. I don't really reject God...rejecting for me would mean knowing and seeing something that is true and real..then turning away from it. I have Doubt....but not Neccessarly rejection. And again, I may have ate from the tree..or I may not have...no one knows. Many non-religious people reject Evil because they themselves find it ethically wrong.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

God would have punished every generation after Adam and Eve but out of His grace He decided to spare us and seeks to bring us back to Him.

Would have?

This is accomplished by casting our punishment onto His own Son, Jesus Christ, through His sacrafice. But only those who believe in Christ have the privilegde of being brought back to God (to live in His new Kingdom after this life). Everyone else must be erased from existence to do away with sins for good.

So everyone that isn't in Heaven, become non-existent?

God's ways are far beyond our understanding.

That's convenient

But I do think that Satan is also a part of His plan.
Satan is showing God, who truly are His childrens.

I thought All of mankind are God's children..I thought God wanted Everyone to truely be His children...placing Satan into this, implies that God wants Some to fail.

 

[Adstar]

Yes it does effect our decision making process immensely. A person might have a very bad temper and lash out at someone hurting them and feel no remorse for doing it, while another person might have the same weakness but react with remorse when it gets the better of them.. Both people are greatly affected by their bad tempers but they are very different in attitude toward their condition. One will see it as ok and will lash out whenever the desire arises, while the other will be remorseful and try there best to control their temper. These two people have a different spirit.

Yes, I agree...but those that are remorseful and try to control their temper doesn't mean that they have a God-ordianed or the Holy spirit in them. They could just as easily be secular people trying to make the most out of life and their situations, and bettering themselves.

We are not powerless against the deception of satan and demons, God has not left us without guidance. People are born with a sin flaw but they also know both Good as well as Evil. People have a conscience. So we are not as ignorant as you may think. If people want to follow evil then they will shout down their consciences over time, but the Word of God can and does ignite the consciences of millions who have had their consciences dulled. God has equipped us with the basic freedom to either Love what is good or love what is evil. People are equipped to make that heavy choice; you are equipped to make that heavy choice. As has already been said it is not about the flaw its about how we feel about our flaws that leads us to either prideful rebellion or repentance and salvation.

It's an unwarranted Flaw to begin with, and that flaw, prevents us from having absolute uninfluenced Free Will. iIf there as undeniable proof of a God and Heaven and Hell, then turning your back on that would be prideful rebellion, but turning against something that may or may not even exist..is doubt. Many disbelievers attempt to avoid what is deemed as sins, and do their best to not to be engulfed by it, not for God, but for themselves and the people around them.

Eternity is forever and ever without end. Although we cannot comprehend such a thing we know that our time in our current state of being is nothing compared to our future existence. Without the option to choose what is our existence worth? Nothing, we would be nothing but zombies. This way we are real beings with a choice. If people make the choice of sin and rebellion that is their decision and they reveal their love of evil by doing this. Their eternal destination is upon their own heads as is satan and his angels. The choice is yours as much as it is theirs; you have the free will to choose eternal life with God. So choose it and live forever more.

In our lifetime we make millons and millions of choices, but choice of this magnitude and severity I believe shouldn't be reserved for us, because we Are NOT ready or equipped enough to even begin to make a choice like this. Who do you think would really complain about living blissfully in Heaven, after they have experienced it and know it to be true? I don't believe it makes you a zombie...Many things happen to us, whether we choose it or not...why can't this be one of them? What Good is Hell going to do? Even if those in Hell change....and obviously see their mistake, there is no chance of redemption...The Punishment Does not fit the crime on any scale.

Yes God experienced time as we know and did so before the time of Jesus and after the time of Jesus when He interacted with the prophets,. but He still had an eternal perspective while experiencing out time. So He never really was limited to our mindsets on time, He was still connected to His eternal nature. Once again while we cannot imagine eternity we do not really have to be able to imagine eternity to have no doubt that it is far more significant that the time we exist in this flesh form.

Question:: If Jesus was supposesdly God, and if on earth He didn't have the mindset of us humans, and was connected to his nature as God, then did He really suffer, in the way we suffer? Did he truely hurt the way we hurt?

We know enough to know what is more important. And God will give enough knowledge to guide those who love the truth to come to Him. Of course we know eternity is worth far more than our life times, infinitely more. Just because we cannot comprehend eternity does not mean we cannot grasp its overriding importance Discarded truths

We may see how important something is, but if we don't understand it..then what does that mean?

From your posts it seems to me that you believe in God deep down. Your posts are not about the existence or otherwise of God. Your posts are about your disagreement and anger at God.

Question:: If Jesus was supposesdly God, and if on earth He didn't have the mindset of us humans, and was connected to his nature as God, then did He really suffer, in the way we suffer? Did he truely hurt the way we hurt?

Yes He did suffer both emotional and physical suffering. Just because He did not have our sin nature and had powers beyond us does not mean He did not have a central nervous system or compassion.

Many of your other points have been dealt with and there is no point continuing in a "yes it is ", " No it isn't", "yes it is", "no it isn't" revolving debate.

I can be used by God to lead you to water but even i know that i cannot make anyone drink. I hope you overcome your anger. But irrespective of your decision God is justified and the justifier of those who love the truth. His will shall be done.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[DiscardedTruths]

From your posts it seems to me that you believe in God deep down. Your posts are not about the existence or otherwise of God. Your posts are about your disagreement and anger at God.

It is entirely possible that God may exist...I don't know..and If I do believe it Deep downit most be floating around in my subconscious because it has not come into my awareness yet. I am discussing from the point of view of a God that exists and a bible that accurately protrays God......because I assume that's what most of you believe....So I questioning more of Why you believe this in light of all the problems I see in this(problem of evil, orginial sin, heaven, hell ect)...If I can understand Why you all believe what you believe..and it seems reasonable and satisfactory enough...then it would shed some light..if I did at some point come to believe there is a God. I can't Be angry at something that I don't know for sure exists...I mean I could but that would be foolish. I'm discussing as IF all the circumstances were true.

Many of your other points have been dealt with and there is no point continuing in a "yes it is ", " No it isn't", "yes it is", "no it isn't" revolving debate.

I can be used by God to lead you to water but even i know that i cannot make anyone drink. I hope you overcome your anger. But irrespective of your decision
God is justified and the justifier of those who love the truth. His will shall be done.

I suppose you are right..I will be asking the same questions and recieving the same answers for it I guess.
Again, I am not angry at God. And I guess I just want sufficient answers...answers that truely explain...but I guess that's not entirely possible because you don't know/comprehend God's nature, thoughts, characteristics, and underlying reasons for certain actions. You say he is the justifier, but Assuming God is real..I see a perversion of justice, at least what we know as Justice. This 'whatever God saids, goes' attitude...implies that God can do want ever He wants and it will always be deemed by you as Good and Just.

 

[RaddMadd]

God chose to create a world that would later be riddled with sin, corruption, and evil because he supposedly valued the moral autonomy of humans more. The concept of Original sin makes True free will nonexistent. If we are born into sin, that means that at one point or another we will commit a sin. So at a various point in our life we would have No choice but to commit that sin. If every human being was born with an equitable and impartial nature, where there wasn’t any tendency towards good or evil. We could assume that since we would agents of True free will there would be people that would not be corrupted by sin.

• Why would it be necessary to allow sin to affect All of mankind based on One man’s choice to disobey god? Especially foreseeing all the suffering and evil that would prevail because of this.
• Rather then Punishing every subsquent generation after Adam and Eve, why not just destory Satan?
• How is our supposed free will genuine if it is tainted by our sinful inclinations (something that wasn't our faults)?

God sent Himself to die horribly on the cross, so why would He create sin, if it would end up to such pain? God doesn't do anything wrong, He just wants the best for us. He loves us.

 

[RaddMadd]

From your posts it seems to me that you believe in God deep down. Your posts are not about the existence or otherwise of God. Your posts are about your disagreement and anger at God.

It is entirely possible that God may exist...I don't know..and If I do believe it Deep downit most be floating around in my subconscious because it has not come into my awareness yet. I am discussing from the point of view of a God that exists and a bible that accurately protrays God......because I assume that's what most of you believe....So I questioning more of Why you believe this in light of all the problems I see in this(problem of evil, orginial sin, heaven, hell ect)...If I can understand Why you all believe what you believe..and it seems reasonable and satisfactory enough...then it would shed some light..if I did at some point come to believe there is a God. I can't Be angry at something that I don't know for sure exists...I mean I could but that would be foolish. I'm discussing as IF all the circumstances were true.

Many of your other points have been dealt with and there is no point continuing in a "yes it is ", " No it isn't", "yes it is", "no it isn't" revolving debate.

I can be used by God to lead you to water but even i know that i cannot make anyone drink. I hope you overcome your anger. But irrespective of your decision
God is justified and the justifier of those who love the truth. His will shall be done.

I suppose you are right..I will be asking the same questions and recieving the same answers for it I guess.
Again, I am not angry at God. And I guess I just want sufficient answers...answers that truely explain...but I guess that's not entirely possible because you don't know/comprehend God's nature, thoughts, characteristics, and underlying reasons for certain actions. You say he is the justifier, but Assuming God is real..I see a perversion of justice, at least what we know as Justice. This 'whatever God saids, goes' attitude...implies that God can do want ever He wants and it will always be deemed by you as Good and Just.

this is how you get saved, heres two sources on it:

http://www.4stepstogod.com

http://christianteens.about.com/od/evangelism/a/becomechristian.htm

i became born again and my who life changed, born again is the spiritual birth.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Yes He did suffer both emotional and physical suffering. Just because He did not have our sin nature and had powers beyond us does not mean He did not have a central nervous system or compassion

Assuming he did suffer....plently of people on this Earth have suffer FAR worse fates then Jesus. His temporary Suffering can be considered Mild compared to others. Of all the ways God could save mankind...Why this Blood Sacrifice(of himself?)?

 

[RaddMadd]

Yes He did suffer both emotional and physical suffering. Just because He did not have our sin nature and had powers beyond us does not mean He did not have a central nervous system or compassion

Assuming he did suffer....plently of people on this Earth have suffer FAR worse fates then Jesus. His temporary Suffering can be considered Mild compared to others. Of all the ways God could save mankind...Why this Blood Sacrifice(of himself?)?

Jesus held the full burden of sin, no one felt nearly as much pain as Him, He was sweating drops of blood, that doesn't happen normally. so that shows that He felt pain that is beyond pain that is even possible for us to feel. He is the only one who can save us because we get saved by faith, and Jesus is God so He is the one we must have faith in. you cannot get saved without faith. and He died so we could get forgiven of our sins, and in the scriptures it says there is no forgiveness without a blood sacrifice.