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Questions about Christianity

postmortemjoe

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Are you so hopeless that you would rather start a fight with a Christian rather than hold your tongue and keep the peace? Has the OP even said anything to indicate he was offended by our answers?

I'm not offended, I kind of expected it, people get all kinds of riled up when their beliefs are questioned.

I never called him empty-headed. He asked why the atheist symbol was a head with a brain, implying that Christian's don't think. I answered truthfully, that they have the symbol of the brain because that is what they rely on. Atheists rely on reason primarily, and Christians rely on faith primarily.

Since when is relying on your brain a bad thing? Christians have a picture of a cross, does that mean they support capital punishment and torture? As somebody said "If Jesus had been killed 20 years ago, people would have little electric chairs around their necks."
 
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drich0150

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That's why I'm asking those in the know, because I can't find it anywhere else in history or otherwise.

we are "in the know" because we have accepted what scripture has to teach.

Just as you have when you look to persecute those who believe the bible as a whole. For example you take a bible verse like the one showing Abraham's willingness to sacrifice His son, as "truth" or at least truth enough to Hold God and his believers responsible for a slight against your own version of personal morality. But, when an answer is given from the very same bible, the bible is no longer good enough to be used as a credible resource.:scratch:



If this was not intended to be a hypocritical act on your part, you would have dismissed the bible as a whole, and not have asked the question or issued the challenge using the bible as a reference.

My question to you is do you wish to "Explore Christianity?" or are you here to see if you can fool some of us, in trying to have a conversation about God with out using the bible? Again, understand it is the same bible YOU have used to formulate the very questions you are asking!
 
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postmortemjoe

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we are "in the know" because we have accepted what scripture has to teach.

Just as you have when you look to persecute those who believe the bible as a whole. For example you take a bible verse like the one showing Abraham's willingness to sacrifice His son, as "truth" or at least truth enough to Hold God and his believers responsible for a slight against your own version of personal morality. But, when an answer is given from the very same bible, the bible is no longer good enough to be used as a credible resource.:scratch:


If this was not intended to be a hypocritical act on your part, you would have dismissed the bible as a whole, and not have asked the question or issued the challenge using the bible as a reference.

My question to you is do you wish to "Explore Christianity?" or are you here to see if you can fool some of us, in trying to have a conversation about God with out using the bible? Again, understand it is the same bible YOU have used to formulate the very questions you are asking!

If the events in the Bible occurred, then there would be a historical record, probably a lot of historical records because god was talking to everyone from the look of it. If you can read somewhere that blue and yellow make green, and then in the real world mix blue and yellow together and get green, it's a fact. If you read in a book that blue and yellow make orange and when you mix them its green, and you continue to call it orange there's a problem.

And I'm not here to "persecute Christianity" but to raise consciousness. Just as it is a Christian virtue to spread the word, it is my job to promote logical thought.
 
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GrayAngel

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If everyone is giving me different answers, I don't think they're all originating from the same source.

Yes. Personal opinions and the Bible are different sources. The former usually trumps the latter.

Good and evil don't exist as absolutes in nature. Is a grizzly bear evil if he mauls a family on vacation? No, it's nature, and to some extent, natural selection.

When you consider nature, things get a little confusing, because "disaster" is synonymous with "evil" in their language. In the KJV, one verse says that God brings evil, while other translations use a different word referring to a natural disaster.

Animals are a part of our broken world, but I don't know if they'd be considered evil, although there seems to be an animal for every negative human trait, including senseless cruelty.

His power extends through all of creation, but stops at the devil? Again, what's the point of a god that is only "kind of" in charge?

I never said God's power stops at the devil. The devil was designed and created by God, and he can only do what God designed him to do. Satan doesn't have free will either.

But the Bible says that we belong to either God or Satan, not because Satan is out of God's control, but that we serve one or the other, and our fates are tied with our master.

The story of Joshua and the Wall of Jericho come to mind... But still, why is killing permitted? Does god favor one people over another? Or does he just want to see them fight to the death in his name for his own personal amusement?

Jericho was an enemy of Israel. And remember, even in that war, the Israelites had mercy on the one woman and her family who showed them kindness. They didn't just senselessly slaughter everyone in their path.

In answer to your question, yes. God did favor one people. The Israelites were the chosen people of God. The other nations were outside of God's covenant. But things changed in the New Testament, and we have a new covenant made for all people.

And yet another different interpretation. I think if the word of god was THE word of god, it would be clear and easy to comprehend.

It's not my interpretation. It's what the Bible says. Here, tell me if you can interpret it differently:

Genesis 22:15-18 - The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Even the title of this section of scripture (though keep in mind those things were added later) is "Abraham Tested." The test was to see if Abraham would trust him, even with the seemingly ridiculous task of killing his son. And no test from God is without purpose. God rewarded Abraham and Isaac (who isn't even mentioned of giving any resistance or pleading at all) for their faith (ie "trust").
 
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postmortemjoe

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Yes. Personal opinions and the Bible are different sources. The former usually trumps the latter.

And if this is the case now, imagine what happened when the Bible was first drafted, after all, people wrote it.



When you consider nature, things get a little confusing, because "disaster" is synonymous with "evil" in their language. In the KJV, one verse says that God brings evil, while other translations use a different word referring to a natural disaster.

Animals are a part of our broken world, but I don't know if they'd be considered evil, although there seems to be an animal for every negative human trait, including senseless cruelty.

So there's one known mistranslation. How many other do you think are in there and is that something you should base your beliefs on? You're personifying animals by saying there's an animal for every negative human trait. According to what?



I never said God's power stops at the devil. The devil was designed and created by God, and he can only do what God designed him to do. Satan doesn't have free will either.

But the Bible says that we belong to either God or Satan, not because Satan is out of God's control, but that we serve one or the other, and our fates are tied with our master.

So you're saying that god designed the devil to tempt humanity so they can ask god for forgiveness for giving in to desires that he created in the first place?



Jericho was an enemy of Israel. And remember, even in that war, the Israelites had mercy on the one woman and her family who showed them kindness. They didn't just senselessly slaughter everyone in their path.

In answer to your question, yes. God did favor one people. The Israelites were the chosen people of God. The other nations were outside of God's covenant. But things changed in the New Testament, and we have a new covenant made for all people.

Joshua 6:21 said:
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

So they saved one family out of a whole city. What a hero! They mercilessly slaughter every living thing in that city because god chose favorites and that's acceptable?
 
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bling

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I posted some of these in other threads, but I figured a dedicated thread would be best. I do ask that the answer is backed up with proof that is not a quote from the Bible as it does not stand up as evidence of anything with its many translations, edits, and other tomfoolery. So on to the questions!

1) God created Satan. He knew that Satan would betray him. Why didn't he just not create Satan? If creating Satan was so important (I don't know why it would be) why didn't he just destroy him after he was created instead of wreaking havoc on mankind for centuries upon centuries?
One question at a time.

Satan was an angel and we do not know how angels were created, but since in heaven we will be like angels, maybe angels were like humans at one time to begin with.

Yes, God can know who will betray Him, but man and angels have free will so that is our choice.

God creates beings that can be like He is (Love), but since being cannot be created with Love (instinctive love is robotic type love and not Godly type Love) they can also chose to not accept that love or give the Love away since it is truly theirs.

Satan has purpose. Satan is part of the system (the only system that works) that helps willing humans accept God’s Charity and thus fulfill their earthly objective.

This tragic sinful world is actually the best situation for willing individuals to accept God’s charity.

All this is explained by the objectives.
 
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postmortemjoe

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Satan has purpose. Satan is part of the system (the only system that works) that helps willing humans accept God’s Charity and thus fulfill their earthly objective.

This tragic sinful world is actually the best situation for willing individuals to accept God’s charity.

All this is explained by the objectives.

So are you suggesting that god's part of the system isn't working?
 
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PaladinValer

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And if this is the case now, imagine what happened when the Bible was first drafted, after all, people wrote it.

The Bible, as you probably already know, was written in three primarily languages. The vast majority of the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, with a smattering of Aramaic and Koine Greek. The New Testament was entirely written in Koine Greek.

The Old Testament which was not originally in Koine Greek was first translated into that language, in stages, between the 3rd century bce and 1st century ce. Incidentally, this is the translation that the authors of the New Testament cited, as well as the one the Apostolic and other Early Church Fathers used.

The literal "original texts" are gone probably to the wind. However, through careful analysis and through constant rediscovery, we have collected literally thousands of ancient excerpts to full texts of the Holy Writ.

Do they all agree in each and every word? No, which is why practically every translation of the Bible is equipt with alternate readings based on the sources.

And as with any book, when you translate into a different language, sometimes things don't translate the best. In English, we ask "how old are you?" and when you translate that into Spanish, you get "how many years do you have?" Thus, the quest is to see how to translate the texts best even when the translators do decide on which alternative to use in the main body. Do they go for a formal equivalence (word-for-word) or do they go for a dynamic equivalence (thought-for-thought). Most modern translations are in the middle of the two, with a tendency towards being more formally equivalized than dynamically so.

However, even in those ancient texts and excerpts that we have, the level of variance is surprisingly extremely low; the Hebrew people were masters of keeping written records and masters of keeping books, period. The Greeks as well were very erudite people, and the Early Church kept those traditions well. There is, at worst, a very minimal theological issue when it comes to the variances, and that can be mitigated through study of the writings of the Church from the beginning onward.

So there's one known mistranslation. How many other do you think are in there and is that something you should base your beliefs on? You're personifying animals by saying there's an animal for every negative human trait. According to what?

Actually, it isn't a mistranslation. The KJV is written not in the same modern English that we read and speak today but Early Modern English, which is truly its own language. If you were to get a facsimile of a 1611 1st/2nd edition KJV, you'll see how different it is to a KJV you'd normally see (for your own knowledge, the KJV most people read is the standard text of 1769). In addition, the vocabulary was much different, so you truly are essentially reading a different language.

As for animals, GreyAngel is incorrect. The Bible in Genesis describes his creations as "good." Humanity is described as "very good," but the fall corrupted our status, though humanity remains inherently a "good thing."

Good not in terms that we can save ourselves, however. The idea of good here is twofold: to show that the material and the physical are not an illusion or something lesser than the spiritual or even evil but real and something sanctioned and blessed by God. Furthermore, good out of the sense that they are the way they are intended to be: perfect in sense of being. A lion in the way a lion should be. A octopus they way an octopus should be. Humanity, being "very good," only in the sense, as I said earlier, of being a species God singled out to be in His image and likeness and therefore be a caretaker and minister to His creation (and boy have we goofed...). Thus, humanity's physical nature isn't wrong nor evil. However, our spiritual nature is no longer what it should be. Humanity is a broken race; we are not "whole" for our soul is broken, which means our very human nature has been corrupted.

Jesus, Christians believe, is the cure for this problem.

So you're saying that god designed the devil to tempt humanity so they can ask god for forgiveness for giving in to desires that he created in the first place?

God created the Devil for the same reason He created all things; so they could even be and so they could enjoy the bliss of complete communion with Him, Who is The Good and The Light. However, when the devil fell from grace, God decided to use him unwittingly in His own plans to make humanity whole and in his final plan to unite all physical existence with His heavenly kingdom.

So they saved one family out of a whole city. What a hero! They mercilessly slaughter every living thing in that city because god chose favorites and that's acceptable?

The point of the story isn't slaughter but how one treats one's neighbor. Those who treat their neighbors terribly will receive justice as will those who treat their neighbor well will also receive justice; each to respect of their behavior. Those who live with mercy will receive mercy, for that is obviously what the merciful desire and value. They want it, so they will receive it. Those who abuse will receive abuse, for that is obviously what the abuses desire and value. They are only being given what they want.

That is why there is the Golden Rule: "Do to others as you would want others to do to you." If you are merciful, you will receive mercy by Him. If you chose to be abusive, then He will know that you wish it for yourself.
 
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Eric Hilbert

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postmortemjoe said:
I do ask that the answer is backed up with proof that is not a quote from the Bible as it does not stand up as evidence of anything with its many translations, edits, and other tomfoolery. So on to the questions!

Unfortunetaly, all of the answers to these questions from scripture, which you say you are not open minded enough to hear. So how are we to answer them?

1) God created Satan. He knew that Satan would betray him. Why didn't he just not create Satan? If creating Satan was so important (I don't know why it would be) why didn't he just destroy him after he was created instead of wreaking havoc on mankind for centuries upon centuries?

God created Lucifer for His glory. God allows Lucifer to operate on the Earth for His glory. Christ defeated Lucifer at Calvary for His glory. God will destroy Satan for His glory. I know you're not going to like that answer, but tough.

2) Why do good things happen to bad people? Is god rewarding them for doing bad things?

No, nor is evil a sign of God's punishment of bad people.

3) Can someone explain the godhead? Is it three gods in one, or one in three parts? Either way, doesn't that make Christianity a polytheistic religion?

No. The Godhead is comprised of one God. That makes Christianity a monotheistic religion.

4) Why is it ok for Abraham to kill his son, but people were upset that Casey Anthony didn't go to jail for killing her daughter?

Abraham didn't kill his son. Nice try, though.

5) Why is war and suffering so prevalent in the book and history of a "peaceful" religion?

First of all, who says it was peaceful?

Second, what does suffering have to do with peace?

6) Why is it that Christians feel the need to insert religion as the only alternative when they assume science has failed?

Straw man.

BONUS: Why is the icon for atheist on this site a head with a brain? Is that implying that Christians don't think?

No. It's implying that atheists lean on their own understanding.
 
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postmortemjoe

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The Bible, as you probably already know, was written in three primarily languages. The vast majority of the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, with a smattering of Aramaic and Koine Greek. The New Testament was entirely written in Koine Greek.

The Old Testament which was not originally in Koine Greek was first translated into that language, in stages, between the 3rd century bce and 1st century ce. Incidentally, this is the translation that the authors of the New Testament cited, as well as the one the Apostolic and other Early Church Fathers used.

The literal "original texts" are gone probably to the wind. However, through careful analysis and through constant rediscovery, we have collected literally thousands of ancient excerpts to full texts of the Holy Writ.

So then how can we know what the original texts stated as a whole if they don't exist? Not to mention all of the books that didn't make the final cut (the book of Mary Magdalene, the book of Enoch, etc.)

Do they all agree in each and every word? No, which is why practically every translation of the Bible is equipt with alternate readings based on the sources.

And as with any book, when you translate into a different language, sometimes things don't translate the best. In English, we ask "how old are you?" and when you translate that into Spanish, you get "how many years do you have?" Thus, the quest is to see how to translate the texts best even when the translators do decide on which alternative to use in the main body. Do they go for a formal equivalence (word-for-word) or do they go for a dynamic equivalence (thought-for-thought). Most modern translations are in the middle of the two, with a tendency towards being more formally equivalized than dynamically so.

This goes back to an understanding of the Bible being nothing more than a specific person's interpretation of those words.

However, even in those ancient texts and excerpts that we have, the level of variance is surprisingly extremely low; the Hebrew people were masters of keeping written records and masters of keeping books, period. The Greeks as well were very erudite people, and the Early Church kept those traditions well. There is, at worst, a very minimal theological issue when it comes to the variances, and that can be mitigated through study of the writings of the Church from the beginning onward.

Through all the years, language translations, and edits (books taken out) you honestly believe that the Bible is an accurate account of events of the time? Based on what?

God created the Devil for the same reason He created all things; so they could even be and so they could enjoy the bliss of complete communion with Him, Who is The Good and The Light. However, when the devil fell from grace, God decided to use him unwittingly in His own plans to make humanity whole and in his final plan to unite all physical existence with His heavenly kingdom.

And god's plan was to have the devil torture humanity so that they can choose to serve a "higher power" (which killed more people than the devil), himself? That sounds kind of narcissistic and sadistic to me.



The point of the story isn't slaughter but how one treats one's neighbor. Those who treat their neighbors terribly will receive justice as will those who treat their neighbor well will also receive justice; each to respect of their behavior. Those who live with mercy will receive mercy, for that is obviously what the merciful desire and value. They want it, so they will receive it. Those who abuse will receive abuse, for that is obviously what the abuses desire and value. They are only being given what they want.

The point of the story should be slaughter. God had families slaughtered. The Bible explicitly states he killed children! What could a child do to deserve death? I would not follow a god that advocated gratuitous violence to please himself.
 
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drich0150

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If the events in the Bible occurred, then there would be a historical record, probably a lot of historical records because god was talking to everyone from the look of it. If you can read somewhere that blue and yellow make green, and then in the real world mix blue and yellow together and get green, it's a fact. If you read in a book that blue and yellow make orange and when you mix them its green, and you continue to call it orange there's a problem.

And I'm not here to "persecute Christianity" but to raise consciousness. Just as it is a Christian virtue to spread the word, it is my job to promote logical thought.

Actually as I pointed out what you are doing by asking questions derived from the bible, and then refusing to hear answers from the same bible is not logical at all. If the bible is not a credible source, then the questions you asked are indeed invalid. (where is the logic in seeking the answer to an invalid question?)

If you believe you are asking credible questions derived from the bible then you must also accept answers provided from the same book. If you want to "Promote logical thought" Then we must all adhere to the same rule of logic.

If this is not the case then please provide us with the parameters of the logic you are using that accredits a source viable to derive questions from, but at the same time will discredit the same exact source when one uses it to answer the question you asked.

Note This is not a religious exercise at this point. I am looking to hold you accountable to the "logic" you yourself are claiming allegiance to. So for now, God aside please explain in detail how it is you are able to operate from the position of the double standard i have pointed out, and still consider yourself to be logical.

If you can not produce any logical evidence that supports your version of "logic" then know, you have simply relabeled your own personal faith and thoughts about history and God, "Logic." No matter how much you want to believe your faith to be logic, that will never be. True logic is answerable and held accountable by a set of rules. Any form of "logic" that does not adhere to these governing rules can be deem a logical fallacy. Until we can establish the logic you are attempting to use, then know your conclusions will automatically be dismissed as fallacious. therefore if you can ask a question derived from the bible then it is perfectly logical to give an answer derived from it..
 
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postmortemjoe

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Actually as I pointed out what you are doing by asking questions derived from the bible, and then refusing to hear answers from the same bible is not logical at all. If the bible is not a credible source, then the questions you asked are indeed invalid. (where is the logic in seeking the answer to an invalid question?)

If you believe you are asking credible questions derived from the bible then you must also accept answers provided from the same book. If you want to "Promote logical thought" Then we must all adhere to the same rule of logic.

If this is not the case then please provide us with the parameters of the logic you are using that accredits a source viable to derive questions from, but at the same time will discredit the same exact source when one uses it to answer the question you asked.

Note This is not a religious exercise at this point. I am looking to hold you accountable to the "logic" you yourself are claiming allegiance to. So for now, God aside please explain in detail how it is you are able to operate from the position of the double standard i have pointed out, and still consider yourself to be logical.

If you can not produce any logical evidence that supports your version of "logic" then know, you have simply relabeled your own personal faith and thoughts about history and God, "Logic." No matter how much you want to believe your faith to be logic, that will never be. True logic is answerable and held accountable by a set of rules. Any form of "logic" that does not adhere to these governing rules can be deem a logical fallacy. Until we can establish the logic you are attempting to use, then know your conclusions will automatically be dismissed as fallacious. therefore if you can ask a question derived from the bible then it is perfectly logical to give an answer derived from it..

You've proven my point. What I was getting at was that the Bible does not in any way relate to real world events, yet Christians base their entire set of beliefs on this book. Had these events actually occurred, there would be some kind of record in the real world. The Bible is not in any way a record of history. And not all the questions were derived from the Bible. A lot of them are just common sense questions, like about Abraham, good things happening to bad people, etc.

Quoting the Bible doesn't answer anything. I could write a book about space aliens attacking France and claim it to be true and that it happened hundreds of years ago. So go ahead and quote the Bible, it won't make a difference.
 
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PaladinValer

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So then how can we know what the original texts stated as a whole if they don't exist? Not to mention all of the books that didn't make the final cut (the book of Mary Magdalene, the book of Enoch, etc.)

The books themselves exist. Genesis exists; the books of the Kingdoms exists; Judith exists. The utter originals of them do not, but we still have the books.

1st Enoch was actually very popular among Jews and even early Christians. A verse of it is even quoted from in the Catholic Letter of St. Jude. However, it fell out of favor probably because it wasn't considered authentic (which is true) but more importantly because it wasn't considered to be up to scratch when compared to books that were definitely considered canonical. Since 1st Enoch is an apocalyptic and prophetic book, its closest comparison would be the Book of Daniel, which was immensely popular particularly by Christians. Another viable reason was the fact that it very well may have not been written in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek. Today, it only exists in full in Ge'ez (with partials [and less] in Latin, Arabic, Greek, and Aramaic), which, while a Semitic language, isn't located in the Holy Land but in Ethiopia, which leads some scholars to believe that its original place of authorship was there. All the other books were written in the Holy Land.

In the end, the Church debated the issue and slowly but surely, 1st Enoch fell out of favor and it didn't make it into the Holy Canon, with one exception: it is considered part of the Holy Canon in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which is a part of the Oriental Orthodox Church. However, no other member of that Communion, let alone the rest of Christianity, considers it canonical.

The Gospel of Mary is a different matter altogether. Written at least a good two decades if not later than the rest of the NT books (120-180 ce), the book is clearly Gnostic in its theology, and Gnosticism was indirectly referred to as something negative in books of the NT. Therefore, it was rejected due to its heretical theology.

This goes back to an understanding of the Bible being nothing more than a specific person's interpretation of those words.
The word you are looking for is translated, not interpreted.

Look again at the example I gave. In Spanish, "Quantos anos, tienes?" could be translated into Engish literally ("How many years do you have?") or metaphorically ("How old are you?"). Both are actuate, but the latter has two advantages: 1st, take a look on how many words in English with Spanish; it is off only by 1, compared to off by 3 in the formal equivalency. 2nd, the formal equivalency is very awkward in English; while it isn't wrong, it is usual. The dynamic equivalency, on the other hand, means the same thing and is common with we English-speakers.

That isn't to say that interpretation cannot be a part of translation into different languages. The very advantage of a formal equivalency is that this issue is minimized: you go word-for-word, ignoring anything else. What you get sound very strange sometimes but you very rarely ever have to worry about a word choice that is clearly part of a theological position. On the other hand, dynamic equivalencies, because they are thought-for-thought, allow the translator to insert his or her own twist potentially. This doesn't mean it will always be the case, but it can, does, and has happened.

The Septuagint is a formal equivalency of the Hebrew and Aramaic, for example. Very little is dynamically translated, and since it was a Jewish product and the Jews of the time used it commonly, we can safely assume those dynamic portions were not theologically contrary to the Hebrew and Aramaic they were translated from.

Some modern Bibles do have their theological biases. The NIV is a noted Evangelical Protestant translation; it is a dynamic equivalency which was translated by mostly Evangelical Protestant scholars. The NAB is a Roman Catholic translation; it is a dynamic equivalency with was translated by primarily Roman Catholic scholars with the help of various Anglican and Mainline Protestant scholars as well. In certain places, you'll find some areas where there is a theological slant, although admittedly, those places are not as populous as you may think.

Compare them to, say, the NRSV, which is a formal equivalency which was translated by an eclectic mix of Anglican, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Mainline Protestant, and at least one Eastern Orthodox scholars. The advantage especially with the NRSV is, since there is such an eclectic mix AND it is a formal equivalency, theological slants are very few.

When reading the Bible, it does help therefore to have a number of translations. Some translations get some areas better than others, either because of awkward translations and, admittedly, sometimes due to theological slants. When you read them together however, you get a clear picture.

The other option, of course, is to learn Hebrew and Koine Greek, and read the source texts yourself. This has immense benefits, but it'll take a lot of time for you to be good enough with the languages yourself before you can easily read them with proficiency.

Through all the years, language translations, and edits (books taken out) you honestly believe that the Bible is an accurate account of events of the time? Based on what?
What do you mean by "events of the time"? If you mean if I believe that the Bible is relatively unchanged, then yes; despite the variances, the Bible is overall surprisingly unchanged in 2,000 years. When you pick up a Bible translated into English today, you are getting essentially the Bible that 2nd century Christians had.

And god's plan was to have the devil torture humanity so that they can choose to serve a "higher power" (which killed more people than the devil), himself? That sounds kind of narcissistic and sadistic to me.
Whoever said that was God's plan? I never said it was God's idea for the devil to torture humanity. Perhaps someone else did, but that isn't a Christian idea.

As I said in my first post, it is very much akin to Tolkien's story. Instead of fighting Melkor (essentially, the devil) and driving him away during the Music, Manwe, the vala (a divine power; an archangel, if you will) decided to lead the chorus that was faithful to Eru Illuvatar's (God, essentially) Theme to add non-contradictory portions of Melkor's vain perversion into the Theme. This was possible because Melkor had no power to make Music of his own, but to adapt what was there already; in other words, Melkor had no power to create like Eru Illuvatar.

As such, the issue with Melkor's song was not that it was music (remember what I said earlier that all creation is "good"), but that it was contrary to its intended purpose. However, Manwe preceived enough of Eru's mind to understand that Melkor's perversion was already known to Eru, which is why he led the other valar and maiar spirits to weave in portions of Melkor's song into the original Theme. Not to add misery, but to incorporate what would happen so that it could eventually be remedied.


That is the essential idea of the devil in Christianity. The devil has already lost; it was always in God's plan for him to lose and so he did when Christ was crucified, died, and was raised. He allowed the devil's darkness (the contrary of the Theme) because He knew it would be destroyed. As such, He allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and allow sin into the world (thus "adding the non-contrary notes"). He would have preferred that humanity never have to deal with it, but He knew that this particular angel of His would rebel and therefore, before time even began, to make sure not only His Will would be done, but what His intended from the beginning idea would come to fruition.

That too is actually in Tolkien. In Dagor Dagorath, Melkor somehow is able to free himself from the void and assemble all his past might to him, including the likes of his former lieutentant, Sauron. He's a fool though, because it was already known through the Music. His forces are destroyed and Turin Turmabar himself, with his sword, slays the fallen valar once and for all. Then, there is the Second Music: Beleriard, the land that sank under the waves after the War of Wrath arises from the depths and the Children of Illuvatar Sing with the Ainur. This time, the Song is aright, and the Light of the Two Trees shines forth into all of Ea (existence; the world).

This is Christianity. This is why God "allows" the devil to "have his way." He detests what the devil does and what humans have done by our bad choices, but in Christ, He has fixed, is fixing, and will fix it all.

I might add that you did read right: the Children of Illuvatar will have a hand in it. Christians have a hand in God's plan. This is called synergism; the cooperation of humanity with God in the healing of the world. Through it, our corrupt nature and broken souls are healed and cured. It is all possible because of the Incarnation, crucifixion, death, resurrection, and ascension of God the Son.

The point of the story should be slaughter.
But it isn't. If you want to understand what Christians mean by what we read in the Bible, you need to understand how we interpret it.

God had families slaughtered. The Bible explicitly states he killed children! What could a child do to deserve death? I would not follow a god that advocated gratuitous violence to please himself.
Whoever said God did it? Again, I replied in another thread you posted in about evolution. Think about my reply there and how it would work in this context.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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So then how can we know what the original texts stated as a whole if they don't exist? Not to mention all of the books that didn't make the final cut (the book of Mary Magdalene, the book of Enoch, etc.)

This was already answered, but I thought I'd add to it:

It's true that there were books which didn't make the cut, but the list of these books is a rather short one. No other gospels apart from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were ever considered for inclusion, and these were well accepted pretty early on. The books that were tentatively "part" of the New Testament include some which are present in the established New Testament Canon and some which are not. Those which are included but were at times held suspect include Hebrews, James, Jude, 2 and 3 John, 2 Peter and the Revelation of St. John; those which ultimately did not receive inclusion include the Shepherd of Hermas, 1 Clement, Epistle of Barnabas, the Didache, III Corinthians, the Epistle to the Laodiceans and the Revelation of St. Peter.

What's there to note is that there were certain books which were never even considered, not only works regarded as heretical by the orthodox/proto-orthodox Church, but works generally regarded as the products of piety. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Protoevangelion of James, the Acts of Paul and Thecla, the Epistles of St. Ignatius. Of these some are regarded as important because of their Patristic importance (the Epistles of Ignatius), some were regarded as simple pious fiction (the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Acts of Paul and Thecla) while others may have been regarded as a combination of pious fiction, legend and tradition (the Protoevangelion of James, which is one of the earliest works to tell us who the Virgin Mary's parents were and has contributed to the broad Christian tradition in such a manner). None of these works were cut out or "rejected" from the Canon, they were just never considered for inclusion; and not because they were "bad" simply that they had no place in the worshiping, liturgical and devotional life of the Church--which is the purpose of having a Canon of Scripture in the first place.

The various Gnostic works, such as the Gospels of Mary and Philip, the quasi-Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of John (which may have originally been a more orthodox work that was later adapted into a more Gnostic/Docetic work) were never considered because A) these were largely the product of distinct sects produced for the initiates of these sects and not for the largely ignorant outsiders (including the mainstream Church which these texts often ridiculed as being ignorant and pig-headed) and B) they contained theologies largely regarded as wholly incompatible with what was understood by mainstream Christians as the received Christian tradition. An example of the latter would be Gnostic works which largely said that Jesus wasn't really human, this is in stark contrast to the received Christian belief that Jesus was a human being who had been born and who had died and these events had transpired in real history to a real human being of real flesh and real blood.

In fact some of the earlier Christian confessional statements were consistently emphatic that Jesus was born, that Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate, and that Jesus died and rose bodily from the dead. Another problem many Christians had with Gnostic works was that they denied any connection between Jesus and the history of Israel and Israel's God; in Gnostic works Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah who preaches largely from the language of the Prophets regarding justice and God's ongoing activity in the world; but is a mystical non-Jewish sage or divine phantasm who speaks of a reality above the God of Israel who is portrayed as an ignorant demon and the material universe as a product of ignorance and is therefore evil.

Now there were works that were neither Gnostic nor proto-orthodox, the Gospel of the Hebrews being an example, which from what is gathered from the Patristic record is largely an edit of the Gospel of Matthew as employed by several sects such as the Ebionites. Some of the Fathers, such as Origen of Alexandria didn't have much trouble with it as-is, but neither was there seen any reason to consider it much more than a particularly sectarian text.

- CryptoLutheran
 
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postmortemjoe

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The books themselves exist. Genesis exists; the books of the Kingdoms exists; Judith exists. The utter originals of them do not, but we still have the books.

...

In the end, the Church debated the issue and slowly but surely, 1st Enoch fell out of favor and it didn't make it into the Holy Canon, with one exception: it is considered part of the Holy Canon in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which is a part of the Oriental Orthodox Church. However, no other member of that Communion, let alone the rest of Christianity, considers it canonical.

The Gospel of Mary is a different matter altogether. Written at least a good two decades if not later than the rest of the NT books (120-180 ce), the book is clearly Gnostic in its theology, and Gnosticism was indirectly referred to as something negative in books of the NT. Therefore, it was rejected due to its heretical theology.

If the originals don't exist, then how can you know what they say as a whole? But more than that, who decided what stayed and what went? It all goes back to interpretation.

The word you are looking for is translated, not interpreted.

Look again at the example I gave. In Spanish, "Quantos anos, tienes?" could be translated into Engish literally ("How many years do you have?") or metaphorically ("How old are you?"). Both are actuate, but the latter has two advantages: 1st, take a look on how many words in English with Spanish; it is off only by 1, compared to off by 3 in the formal equivalency. 2nd, the formal equivalency is very awkward in English; while it isn't wrong, it is usual. The dynamic equivalency, on the other hand, means the same thing and is common with we English-speakers.

No, the word I'm looking for is interpreted. Whoever wrote the books of the Bible may have embellished certain ideas and changed them from what they originally were creating their interpretation of the events.

That isn't to say that interpretation cannot be a part of translation into different languages. The very advantage of a formal equivalency is that this issue is minimized: you go word-for-word, ignoring anything else. What you get sound very strange sometimes but you very rarely ever have to worry about a word choice that is clearly part of a theological position. On the other hand, dynamic equivalencies, because they are thought-for-thought, allow the translator to insert his or her own twist potentially. This doesn't mean it will always be the case, but it can, does, and has happened.

How can you be sure that that didn't happen with the books of the Bible?


What do you mean by "events of the time"? If you mean if I believe that the Bible is relatively unchanged, then yes; despite the variances, the Bible is overall surprisingly unchanged in 2,000 years. When you pick up a Bible translated into English today, you are getting essentially the Bible that 2nd century Christians had.

I don't know how to make this question clearer. I was asking if the Bible accurately depicts the events that it claims to. My point was that if it had, they could then be verified by an external source. I'm aware that it hasn't changed in 2000 years.

Whoever said that was God's plan? I never said it was God's idea for the devil to torture humanity. Perhaps someone else did, but that isn't a Christian idea.

I'm not saying you said it, but the fact that some Christians (on this board nonetheless) believe it is proof of the inconsistencies in the interpretations of the book itself.

That is the essential idea of the devil in Christianity. The devil has already lost; it was always in God's plan for him to lose and so he did when Christ was crucified, died, and was raised. He allowed the devil's darkness (the contrary of the Theme) because He knew it would be destroyed. As such, He allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted and allow sin into the world (thus "adding the non-contrary notes"). He would have preferred that humanity never have to deal with it, but He knew that this particular angel of His would rebel and therefore, before time even began, to make sure not only His Will would be done, but what His intended from the beginning idea would come to fruition.

Not to say that you don't sincerely believe this, but this is an explanation according to you whereas others may have (and do have) completely different opinions on this topic.

This is Christianity. This is why God "allows" the devil to "have his way." He detests what the devil does and what humans have done by our bad choices, but in Christ, He has fixed, is fixing, and will fix it all.

So why couldn't he just "override" the devil and make the world a great place and have humans living in peace and prosperity? It seems very narcissistic and sadistic to create a race of people, create a supreme evil being, and then smite the people for all of eternity because they ate from the tree of knowledge after being convinced by a serpent, who was the devil and now the only way to be forgiven for doing something you had no hand in is to submit to the supreme being that put all of this into motion in the first place.

I might add that you did read right: the Children of Illuvatar will have a hand in it. Christians have a hand in God's plan. This is called synergism; the cooperation of humanity with God in the healing of the world. Through it, our corrupt nature and broken souls are healed and cured. It is all possible because of the Incarnation, crucifixion, death, resurrection, and ascension of God the Son.

That is exactly why I am opposed to religion. It teaches people that humans are by nature bad and sinful, being "corrupt" and having "broken souls". I think humans as a whole are ok and it's not fair to hold them to standards that force them to be something they are not.
 
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