Questions about 1 John

[Grumpy Old Man]

When I used to be a Christian, I was always puzzled by this verse;

1 John 5:18
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

This is from the ESV. The NIV (updated version) says "continue to sin". Older translations usually said something along the lines of, "whosoever is born of God does not sin".

Does this mean Christians can stop sinning? The whole verse is a contradiction really. The Christian stops sinning, and if he keeps on sinning it must be a sign that he/she wasn't born of God - isn't that what it is saying?

Compare this with;

1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So someone born of God doesn't keep on sinning, which means at some point they stop sinning, yet if they acknowledge they've stopped sinning then they are deceived? So how do they know they've stopped sinning?

1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This verse is saying the same thing. However;

1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

So Christians, at some point, stop sinning, but they're not allowed to believe they've stopped sinning because they're deceiving themselves. But... until they do stop sinning they have an advocate. That's about as much sense as I can make of it. Am I right?

Also, how do these verses fit with this;

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

If Christians keep sinning, is this saying they can expect judgement of some kind or that they lose their salvation and go to hell?

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Onto a slightly new topic but related;

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul and John seem to be in some disagreement here. Paul believes that the wages of sin is death, but John believes that there are some sins that do not lead to death. How is this discrepancy reconciled?

John even went so far as to say this;

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

So John was pretty explicit in his believe that some sins clearly do not lead to death. So which sins lead to death and which don't?

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Finally, this has always puzzled me too;

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Compare these with what John says;

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

Is John saying we shouldn't fear God, or punishment or what?

When I was a Christian, I found the book of 1 John to stand in complete contrast with other parts of the Bible, as I've tried to detail here. Either the writer of John was out of step with the mainstream teachings of the church, or he was the only one who seemed to truly grasp the Grace Gospel and everyone else had it wrong. I've never really heard any decent analysis of 1 John when compared with other Bible teaches and would welcome some enlightenment.

 

[bling]

It is great to see you read the Bible and try to understand it.

A lot of this concerning Christians sinning is best understood by Christians living through it and is not for the nonbeliever to understand, since there is no application.

It is really good news to know you (as a Christian) do not have to sin again. It is not
that you will instantly be lost if you sin again, but it is something you do not want to do again and now have the power through the indwelling Holy Spirit to avoid doing. (Sin has purpose for the non Christian, so the non Christian cannot keep from sinning [but can avoid doing any one sin]).

As Christians we do not have permission to sin, should avoid sinning, and can avoid sinning. Since like Christ deity dwells within a human body it does not have to sin, but we still have free will. Christ was did not quench the indwelling deity, but Christians sometimes do quench the Holy Spirit, take control back and mess up.

 

[drich0150]

When I used to be a Christian, I was always puzzled by this verse;

1 John 5:18
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

This is from the ESV. The NIV (updated version) says "continue to sin". Older translations usually said something along the lines of, "whosoever is born of God does not sin".

Does this mean Christians can stop sinning?

No this would be in direct contradiction of several other verses.

The whole verse is a contradiction really. The Christian stops sinning, and if he keeps on sinning it must be a sign that he/she wasn't born of God - isn't that what it is saying?

No, This is a turn of phrase in the Greek that gets lost in translation.
The word that causes the confusion is
gennaō
Which can mean man being fathered by man, God being the Father of man, or God being the Father of Christ.
A more English friendly translation would be:
We know that anyone (Man) born of God (Man being fathered or accepted by God) does not continue to sin; (the semi colon would indicate the following reason being.) the One who was born of God (Or Christ being born of God) keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.
1 John 5 (Blue Letter Bible: NIV - New International Version)

Compare this with;

1 John 1:8
1 John 1:10
1 John 2:1

which is why one must turn to the Greek in some cases for a complete understanding. John would not contradict himself in his own letter. This was just a turn of phrase that got lost in translation.

So Christians, at some point, stop sinning,

Once one becomes a Christian then His sins are covered by Christ.

but they're not allowed to believe they've stopped sinning because they're deceiving themselves.

We never stop sinning.

But... until they do stop sinning they have an advocate. That's about as much sense as I can make of it. Am I right?

No because we have an "advocate" our sins are not counted against us.

Also, how do these verses fit with this;

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

If Christians keep sinning, is this saying they can expect judgment of some kind or that they lose their salvation and go to hell?

No, it is saying for those who sin deliberately even after their knowledge (and refusal) of the gospel will burn in Hell (Keep reading the chapter.)


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Onto a slightly new topic but related;

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul and John seem to be in some disagreement here. Paul believes that the wages of sin is death, but John believes that there are some sins that do not lead to death. How is this discrepancy reconciled?

Not all sin can be reconciled by the blood of Christ. There is one sin that Christ Himself says their is no forgiveness for. This is the "one sin" John is talking about.

Paul is saying that all or any sin not covered under the blood atonement of Christ will lead to death. John is speaking of the one sin that Even Christ's blood can not/will not cover.

John even went so far as to say this;

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

So John was pretty explicit in his believe that some sins clearly do not lead to death. So which sins lead to death and which don't?

According to Christ, Blaspheme of the holy Spirit is the only sin that can not be forgiven. This is THE Sin John is speaking of. All other sins can be forgiven and do not lead to an automatic death.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+1:7&version=ESV

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Compare these with what John says;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+1:7&version=ESV
These two verses speak to those who do not know God. For someone who does not know God Fear should be their motivator to get to know him or to "seek wisdom."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John+4:18&version=ESV

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John+4:18&version=ESV
John describes a mature believers faith.One that has moved past fear.

When I was a Christian, I found the book of 1 John to stand in complete contrast with other parts of the Bible, as I've tried to detail here. Either the writer of John was out of step with the mainstream teachings of the church, or he was the only one who seemed to truly grasp the Grace Gospel and everyone else had it wrong. I've never really heard any decent analysis of 1 John when compared with other Bible teaches and would welcome some enlightenment

I hope this helps

 

[razeontherock]

Wow, long replies! I'm going to summarize by saying that most times when there seems to be contradiction, or even when people disagree, the issue is comparing Spiritual things to physical. The 2 need to be kept separate, so that we compare Spiritual things to Spiritual.

"Everyone who has been born of G-d" is a spiritual reference, to Christ IN you. NOT you!

Notice this in no way makes the original you stop existing; unregenerate, dead in sin, old man, ETC. This is the plight of Christianity, that both co-exist. It is also one thing the Cross represents; the upright risen Savior, vs the old us, who needs to just lay down.

Onto a slightly new topic but related;
When I was a Christian, I found the book of 1 John to stand in complete contrast with other parts of the Bible, as I've tried to detail here. Either the writer of John was out of step with the mainstream teachings of the church, or he was the only one who seemed to truly grasp the Grace Gospel and everyone else had it wrong. I've never really heard any decent analysis of 1 John when compared with other Bible teaches and would welcome some enlightenment.

If I'm not mistaken, at the Council's considering "Canon," John's writing were about the only ones accepted that had any real controversy. John is called "the theologian." Simply put, if there ever appears to be a contradiction - GO WITH JOHN. As more understanding comes, the apparent contradictions will be resolved.

Good questions! I'm curious to see what opening comments others might make, and may later offer some refinements ...

I still say make the effort to compare apples to apples, flesh to flesh, and Spirit to Spirit, which will resolve the bulk of what you're looking at.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

We never stop sinning.

So why does the scripture imply that Christians can stop sinning? Is it just another bad translation?

No, it is saying for those who sin deliberately even after their knowledge (and refusal) of the gospel will burn in Hell (Keep reading the chapter.)

I checked this out. Some commentators, as you yourself suggest, say this passage is directed at non-believers. Others suggest, to which I would agree, that the passage is directed at Christians given that the letter itself was written to Jewish Christians, not unbelievers. Here's the whole passage;

Hebrews 10:26-39

English Standard Version (ESV)

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, 33sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. 34For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. 35Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37For,

"Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him."

39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

The context itself indicates that this passage is about "fallen" Christians. These passages must be problematic for the "once saved, always saved" Christians.

 

[drich0150]

So why does the scripture imply that Christians can stop sinning? Is it just another bad translation?

First there are no bad translations. Everything in the bible is the best or closest translation to what has been recorded. It is the closest word for word we have with some minor exceptions. Exceptions being, when direct translation would completely change the meaning of the intended passage. Sayings or cultural quips are left up to the commentators and bible students to decipher.

Again "we" never stop sinning. Our desires change, and for the believer our attitude towards sin Change. We do not want to sin. But we are bound to sin. We are slaves to sin. (Rom7)This means we can not escape it's grasp. Remember unless God forces His Expressed will unto us, our very nature or the gift of "free will" automatically places in a position of sin.

I checked this out. Some commentators, as you yourself suggest, say this passage is directed at non-believers. Others suggest, to which I would agree, that the passage is directed at Christians given that the letter itself was written to Jewish Christians, not unbelievers. Here's the whole passage;

It wasn't given to Jewish Christians. It was given to Jews making the transition to what would later be known as Christianity. (Some were further along in their journey than others, but no one was complete, as the term Jewish Christian would imply.)

Read the book for yourself, there are a lot of passages directed toward helping those who have worshiped God one way all of their lives, to adapt to a new way of worshiping.

The context itself indicates that this passage is about "fallen" Christians. These passages must be problematic for the "once saved, always saved" Christians.

Not true. Read verses 1-25 they clearly speak to the Jew who is still caught up trying to atone for sin through the blood of animals. The writer of Hebrews clearly is trying to transition the potential new believer to understanding and accepting the blood atonement offered in Christ.

Verse26: If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

epignōsis= knowledge:
1) precise and correct knowledge
a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine


alētheia=Truth
1) objectively
a) what is true in any matter under consideration
1) truly, in truth, according to truth
2) of a truth, in reality, in fact, certainly

Knowledge of truth as the passage states is in fact as we understand it to mean. We (or rather the Jews the Hebrew writer is writing to) have no more atonement (meaning the blood of animals, no longer works the way it did, so do Not hope to think your sins are covered there anymore) IF "we/Jews" do not accept the Truth or Gospel or Good News of Christ's blood sacrifice, Then there is no more atonement for our sins.

This message is an alter call to the unbelievers or Jews who have not accepted Christ.

 

[hedrick]

I think you're confusing rhetoric with formal logic. In formal logic if you say anyone who is a Christian doesn't sin, then it logically follows that anyone who sins isn't a Christian.

However that's not the way common language works. "Christians don't *do* that" is a way one tells a Christian that they're doing something that is not Christian. It is not a statement that the person isn't a Christian.

Absolutely Christians don't sin. Jesus is quite uncompromising in his demands. Unfortunately it turns out that Christians actually do sin. That's why he's just as strong in teaching about forgiveness. That's why you have to pair 5:18 with 1:8, 10. 2:1 puts them together, as you note.

 

[razeontherock]

So why does the scripture imply that Christians can stop sinning?

I know 2 Christians total, who say we can, completely. They are both on CF. I can give you their usernames so you can lurk their posts if'n you want ...

These passages must be problematic for the "once saved, always saved" Christians.

OSAS - yup, I reject it as unscriptural. Paul, for example:

(1 Cor 9:27) But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

 

[someguy14]

Psalm 14:3
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God is the only Good. How can we be perfect? With God only. God is the perfect.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.