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same link as my earlier post.. SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The quality of those souls who depart this life with original sin only (Appendix I, Q. 1)
You are probably right... changing ....every changing.. but never really changing..The big problem is that the Summa only gives one very Medieval perspective on this doctrine. It's a massive mistake to think that Aquinas' own musings on this doctrine are in any way the epitome and final word on it. In fact, I don't think many RC scholars would agree with that portion of the Summa nowadays.
Vis....that was what I have said all along: you are not guilty of Original sin. You suffer from its effects (as we all do), but you are not guilty before God any sins you did not commit.
"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" Ezek. 18:20
If we don't inherit the physical effects of sin from the fall, why do we die? Even the whole creation suffers for it:
Gen 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Paul explains it this way:
Romans 5:12-19 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Here's a quote from ancient Jewish tradition, found in the LXX:
O Adam, what have you done? For though it was you who sinned, the fall was not yours alone, but ours also who are your descendants. (2 Esdras aka 4 Ezra 7:118)
Sin is indeed the transgression of the Law, yet:
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.Job 15:14-16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Depravity is the source of sin. Original Sin is the source of depravity. All creation suffers physically ans spiritually from the fall of man.
If one is not born into "Original sin" inheriting the sins of Adam and Eve, then why are the newborns, aborted fetuses condemned as sinners - they had no chance to sin. So what is the sin that the stillborn baby committed? You think maybe he was thinking of the best bank to rob? should he begin at sixteen when he gets his license or maybe wait, get some driving experiences down.
Yedida, with respect, we've already established that this is not the conclusion of the majority of people in regards Original Sin. I don't know of any mainstream theologian that would be prepared to defend the notion that children are guilty of sin at birth. As explained already, the guilt of Adam's sin is not imputed, but the effects of being born in a state of spiritual separation from God (the degree of which can be debated) are present. Yes, they are born sinners, but no, they are guilty of committing a sin that would send them to Hell. You are arguing against a doctrine that I don't think anyone believes. I know you can find people that believe that here and there, but generally, most Christians would reject that.
Then I apologize to you. The last thing I read of yours on this sure sounded like this is what you were leaning toward (unlike earlier when I thought you were saying more of what is above on this post).
I'm a bit loopy these days, a walking drug store, so forgive an already worn-mind for being a bit more so in these next few days?
Lots of different propositions have come out the discussion of sin in the history of God's people. Not all of them "fly" all that well for my mind either.
However, the bottom line of the doctrine of sin is what all who claim to be orthodox have in common, despite differences over theories about its outcome.
.
A)nd they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (2 Macc 12:42-45
May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord’s mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well.
Interestingly enough, it'd seem that there's a bit of a universalistic dynamic that occurs with children. For due to the fact that they are innocent in the Lord's eyes, they all get into the prescence of the Lord/are saved by default--and alongside that would go others who may be in similar situations of helplessness (i.e. impaired/mentally disabled, those who are unable to truly tell differences). Grey Boyd discussed the issue in-depth in another place when it came to what he labeled baby universalism.guilty[/u] of sin at birth. As explained already, the guilt of Adam's sin is not imputed, but the effects of being born in a state of spiritual separation from God (the degree of which can be debated) are present. Yes, they are born sinners, but no, they are guilty of committing a sin that would send them to Hell. .
Ditto on the sentimentsBe well, healthy and happy.
Not certain as to what specific point you were speaking in reference to which you felt was good. But cool nonethelessGood posts and points, easy G!
Found something from one of my brothers in Christ that I really appreciated (coming from an EO viewpoint not often heard by certain circles). It's found in the article entitled Ancestral Sin vs. Original Sin--and the essay details the vast divergence between western/Scholastic theology and Orthodox Patristic theology with regard to the sin of Adam.I don't know of any mainstream theologian that would be prepared to defend the notion that children are guilty of sin at birth. As explained already, the guilt of Adam's sin is not imputed, but the effects of being born in a state of spiritual separation from God (the degree of which can be debated) are present. Yes, they are born sinners, but no, they are guilty of committing a sin that would send them to Hell. .
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