Question...

[TanteBelle]

You are missing the whole point. Circumcision is the outward sign of being a Jew. We are not talking about observing Torah as a Jew or Gentile. Nor are we discussing one's salvation. We are talking about your statement of when you become a believer you are no longer a Jew or Gentile but an Israelite. And I still want scripture calling one an Israelite. People from Israel are Israelites.

First, without offending ma'am and please forgive me if I do but I must address one issue that is a huge mistake within the Messianic churches ...

Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew. Jacob was not a Jew. The first 'Jew' you come across is Judah himself. From then on, his decendants are Jews and the Southern Kingdom of Judah (Levi, Benjamin, Judah) are known as Jews. So to say that circumcision is an outward sign of being a Jew I have to say is false because we have to first remember that the covenant of circumcision was made first to Abraham who was not a Jew but a Hebrew though he was a Syrian. Circumcision is the outward sign that we obey torah however, God never required it of Abraham himself but of his decendants. What Abraham did was a free-will offering. It was never a law that a Gentile convert was to be circumcised over 8 days old; that is a tradition within Judaism and the apostles had to debate that one.

Okay, now addressing the issue of Gentile conversion to Israelite.

Leviticus 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

The one in Exodus sticks out more. 'The congregation of Israel'. God didn't say, 'the congregation of Israel ... and all you Gentiles'. At the end of the day, if they accept God and the torah, they are seen as 'one who is born in the land'.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What's Paul saying here? Just because you are an Israelite by birth doesn't mean that you have a brownie point with God. What God counts as Israel are those who are Israel by the promise. That is, the promise by faith. Paul's talking in a spiritual sense here. 'Those who are children of the flesh (the world; be you Jew or Gentile) are not children of God! But the children of the promise (by faith; be you Jew or Gentile) are counted for the seed.' What did Yeshua have to say to the Pharisees?

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

You don't have to have 1 drop of Hebrew blood in you and yet in God's eyes you can be more of a child of Abraham by faith than one who is by blood.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

What's Paul saying? Circumcision in the flesh is only a benefit to you if you keep the torah. But if you break the torah, it doesn't matter if you are circumcised, in God's eyes, you are uncircumcised by faith. Being a Jew (or an Israelite for that matter) is not an issue of blood but of faith. Circumcision of the heart is what God is after more and that is by faith.

Romans 11 is devoted to the entire subject of being grafted into Israel. If we aren't grafted in and called Israel then I suppose that the new covenant doesn't apply to Gentiles. And I suppose that the new kingdom doesn't apply to Gentiles. Who was the new covenant to?

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

There is no 'house of Gentile' here. Jump into either or, or you're out!

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

There are no Gentile names there. You fit into one of those or you don't fit in at all.

 

[Ryan Collins]

Off-topic and another question: Having researched and seeing that there are multiple siddurs, do any of you own one and recommend it? If so, which one do you have?

 

[yedida]

I haven't time right now to get to everything, but I was curious how you see the idea of 1 law for all believers being anti-semetic? It seems that having multiple laws for various groups is more of an encouragement for division than saying, 'Here's the laws of God; doesn't matter if you are born a Jew or not. Want to be a part? Jump aboard!'

Note: After my latter post, I think I'm starting to see how you might think my views to be anti-semetic but I assure you, they are not. I'm not saying that God has forsaken the Jews or the land of Israel, because He sure hasn't! Though Israel as a people and a nation may have left Him some, He made an everlasting covenant and He's going to stick by His part of the deal. God doesn't change His mind and He doesn't change His covenants (Psalm 89:34). Israel and the Jewish people are still totally in the hand of God.

As a side note, what does bother me is believers rushing into Jewish traditions. I have no problem with Jewish traditions; I think many of them are beautiful and I'd love to have more of them in my life. However, one can easily lose themself in the tradition and looking like a believer but God doesn't see it like that. 'By your traditions you make the word of God of none effect', Yeshua said. What matters most is the word. Traditions can be something very helpful that can add meaning to the word but it is soo easy to lose yourself in 'looking' like a devout believer and be miles away from the word.
I've just befriended an Israeli bloke who's recently been released from the army. He's a great bloke and shows soo much respect for the Jewish traditions of his forebears that I've been brought to the point of tears, it's truely beautiful. But he grew up a secular Jew and has no faith in God! Oh, he believes that God's there, but has no interest in torah or Judaism. He's been brought up to respect and do the traditions without question but he doesn't know why they do them and feels that Judaism has nothing to offer him. It really hurts to see a young man so lost because all he was brought up to view as important was the traditions of men. As Yeshua said, 'teaching for commandments the doctrines of men'. 'By your traditions you make the word of God of none effect!'

Shalom,
I've been screaming "Not two sets of laws!" for years!!
You either have not read all of the postings or you have read what you expected to see....
And you missed it when I also stated that most people who speak of a "spiritual" Israel are not doing it with an anti-semitic heart. The anti-semitism is built into the idea, and taught by those who would change God's outlook on His physical people and land. I'll leave it at that and let you seek the Lord about it.

 

[yedida]

Off-topic and another question: Having researched and seeing that there are multiple siddurs, do any of you own one and recommend it? If so, which one do you have?

Dear, Ryan, you are NOT off topic. You started this thread in the hopes of getting some answers to your many varied questions!!
Soooo, in answer: My favorite siddur is the full one put out by Artscroll. I don't have it right at hand, but my memory is telling me it's 600+ pages. Hebrew on the right hand and English on the left. My understanding is that this one is used by the majority of Orthodox Synagogues.
I also have a smaller one specifically for Messianics that FFOZ did up for BT a few years back (a spiral bound notebook sized siddur with transliterations along with English and Hebrew). And I have one other smaller hardbound Messianic siddur (I'm not sure but I think the name of the person responsible for it is maybe Greenberg??).

 

[anisavta]

There are no Gentile names there. You fit into one of those or you don't fit in at all.

Have you ever considered that it's not about Gentiles in all these passages? You've mixed and matched. Some are directed to Jews of the day who wanted everyone to become Jews for their salvation. Some are about the nation of Israel returning to their G~d. You've made up your mind that the only way G~d will receive you is if you become Israel (what ever that is). And since you're determined that you have to be Israel - then you will receive the blessings and the curses that G~d has declared upon His People. Are you ready and willing to accept this responsibility?

 

[xDenax]

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Alright, mine says...

When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not taunt him.

The stranger who sojourns with you shall be as a native from among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord, your God.

- How does this apply to one changing from a Non-Jew to a Jew (or Hebrew if you'd rather use that term)?

 

[visionary]

Leviticus 19:34 (New International Version, ©2011)

34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

 

[anisavta]

Complete Jewish Bible
34 Rather, treat the foreigner staying with you like the native-born among you - you are to love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt; I am ADONAI your God.

 

[yedida]

Stone Tanakh (2007) says;

Lev. 19:33-34
When a proselyte dwells among you in your land, do not taunt him. The proselyte who dwells with you shall be like a native among you, and you shall love him like yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt - I am Hashem, your God.
Very much like Dena's.
It does NOT say we become native born, it says we are to be treated as native born - there is a very subtle difference.

 

[Ryan Collins]

Off-Topic again:

I just traded in two books through Amazon and have a 110.00 gift card to spend. I'd like to get a Siddur and other books that would be beneficial for me. Thus far, I have ordered and on the way:

The Sabbath by Abraham Heschel
God's Appointed Customs: Messianic Jewish Guide to the Biblical Lifecycle and Lifestyle by Barney Kasdan
God's Appointed Times: A Practical Guide For Understanding and Celebrating the Biblical Holidays by Barney Kasdan

Those three were purchased prior to receiving the gift card. So, now...I'm asking you to help me spend my gift card with books you think will be of benefit to me in my endeavors to learn more about Messianic Judaism (or Judaism in general) and the practicality of such. I would really like a Siddur, and it looks like there are slim pickings on amazon for them. If you could take a look on amazon and let me know which one you recommend, that would be great.

In other words, TELL ME WHAT TO BUY!

 

[ChavaK]

The Sabbath by Abraham Heschel

This is one of the best books I read on shabbas:
Amazon.com: The Sabbath: Dayan Dr. I. Grunfeld: Books
Looks like it is no longer available at Amazon, but Feldheim has it.

I would really like a Siddur, and it looks like there are slim pickings on amazon for them.

I'm not a Messianic so I can't help you there, but why would you want an Artscroll (Orthodox Jewish) siddur, instead of something Messianic?

 

[Ryan Collins]

This is one of the best books I read on shabbas:
Amazon.com: The Sabbath: Dayan Dr. I. Grunfeld: Books
Looks like it is no longer available at Amazon, but Feldheim has it.



I'm not a Messianic so I can't help you there, but why would you want an Artscroll (Orthodox Jewish) siddur, instead of something Messianic?

I haven't really been able to find any Messianic Siddurs that are available for a good price.

The only one I found that sounds like a good deal is $18.00: Siddur For Messianic Jews

I'm not very well-informed of siddurs, so any knowledge or recommendations would be great.

 

[ChavaK]

I'm not very well-informed of siddurs, so any knowledge or recommendations would be great.

Again, in the Orthodox community I would say the Artscroll is one of the most commonly used....but it's not Messianic. Hopefully someone here can give you a good lead on which one to purchase.

 

[yedida]

I haven't really been able to find any Messianic Siddurs that are available for a good price.

The only one I found that sounds like a good deal is $18.00: Siddur For Messianic Jews

I'm not very well-informed of siddurs, so any knowledge or recommendations would be great.

FFOZ put out a Messianic Siddur before they went 2-House, and the one I told you about before is based on it. (BTW, that's First Fruits of Zion, just in case...)
I personally like the full Artscroll Siddur, and I love my Stone Tanakh, am very glad I made that purchase. The siddur was given to me but I really like it. I have no problem that it does not include Yeshua, it's still Messianic, and it's still prayer to the Father. Exceptionally beautiful prayer to the Father, in fact.

 

[ChavaK]

it's still Messianic

How so?

 

[yedida]

As far as the Artscroll siddur goes, what I do, is every time the terms salvation, deliverance and such is used, I just substitute Yeshua's name for the word (when it fits). "Hashem I thank You for Your Yeshua (salvation/deliverance)," works just fine.

 

[yedida]

How so?

Perhaps I've been misinformed. Are the Jews not still hoping their Moshiach will come? If they are, then it's still Messianic, they are still praying for His coming. And we are looking for His second return, so it works; for me, anyway.

 

[TanteBelle]

Shalom,
I've been screaming "Not two sets of laws!" for years!!
You either have not read all of the postings or you have read what you expected to see....
And you missed it when I also stated that most people who speak of a "spiritual" Israel are not doing it with an anti-semitic heart. The anti-semitism is built into the idea, and taught by those who would change God's outlook on His physical people and land. I'll leave it at that and let you seek the Lord about it.

My apologies ma'am. Though I wasn't trying to twist anything of what you said, it seems that I still did not fully understand what you were trying to say. I didn't come on here looking for an argument and merely responded to what I took everyone to be saying. My apologies all.

Have you ever considered that it's not about Gentiles in all these passages? You've mixed and matched. Some are directed to Jews of the day who wanted everyone to become Jews for their salvation. Some are about the nation of Israel returning to their G~d. You've made up your mind that the only way G~d will receive you is if you become Israel (what ever that is). And since you're determined that you have to be Israel - then you will receive the blessings and the curses that G~d has declared upon His People. Are you ready and willing to accept this responsibility?

If one keeps torah, are they not subject to the curses and blessings of God anyway? How can one keep torah and expect to be exempt from the blessings and curses?

Also, those other versions that you ladies brought up does put that passage in a different light. Which is more accurate, I don't know and would require further study.

 

[xDenax]

I have the Siddur Sim Shalom for Weekdays but I'd think a Messianic prayer book would be more suitable for your needs.

 

[yedida]

My apologies ma'am. Though I wasn't trying to twist anything of what you said, it seems that I still did not fully understand what you were trying to say. I didn't come on here looking for an argument and merely responded to what I took everyone to be saying. My apologies all.



If one keeps torah, are they not subject to the curses and blessings of God anyway? How can one keep torah and expect to be exempt from the blessings and curses?

Also, those other versions that you ladies brought up does put that passage in a different light. Which is more accurate, I don't know and would require further study.

Not to worry. We're on the same page now.
You ask a good question. I'll wait to see the answer.
The one I quoted is from the Artscroll Stone Tanakh, the English side (my Hebrew stinks (it's not a Christian bible)).
BYW, welcome to the MJ forums!! (Ooops I see you joined some time ago! I haven't seen you around?)