Question...

[Ryan Collins]

Quite wrong. Grafting does not mean that distinctions between the two are no longer viewed. For example:

Gentiles were grafted in, but they are not Jews.

 

[anisavta]

Nice example.

 

[xDenax]

Nice example.

It's the prettiest example I've seen so far.

 

[yedida]

As I explained before, being an adopted kid. When my parents were asked how many children? Their answer was always "4." Never any qualifications. When I got into trouble, it was never, "well, she's adopted, we can't be responsible for her genes." What was expected of my elder brethren, was expected of me. What I was allowed, they were allowed. I now had a family, I was no longer a child alone; and I was not treated as a second-class member of the family. Yet, there always remained some things that could not be changed. I would forever have non-matching DNA. In some life-threatening situations, the fact that I was not a natural-born sibling would always come into play.
That's as it is with God's family. We are no longer "of the nations" lost, and without God or hope, but we are not Jewish either. We are citizens of God's Holy Family, with full standing, privileges and obligations.

 

[anisavta]

Kind of like when Steven Curtis and Mary Beth Chapman adopted their girls from China. They are Chapmans in every sense of the word. But when they fill out vital information and it says race - they are still Chinese or Oriental. They will never be Caucasian.

 

[yedida]

Kind of like when Steven Curtis and Mary Beth Chapman adopted their girls from China. They are Chapmans in every sense of the word. But when they fill out vital information and it says race - they are still Chinese or Oriental. They will never be Caucasian.

Exactly!! And they will never LOOK like their caucasian parents, but they are their parent's children in all other ways, not second-class kids.
So we are full-standing members of God's family, but we are not Jewish, nor physical Israelites.

 

[Ryan Collins]

So even though I am a Gentile, being a Messianic Gentile is something to rejoice about!

 

[yedida]

So even though I am a Gentile, being a Messianic Gentile is something to rejoice about!

Absolutely!! We are prophecy fulfilled!!

 

[anisavta]

Yes Ryan. You have been chosen by the Most High as a Gentile. What a privilege.

 

[ChavaK]

So even though I am a Gentile, being a Messianic Gentile is something to rejoice about!

Being a Gentile period is something to rejoice about! G-d does not demand
that people be Jews in order to be acceptable to Him. We actually
discourage conversion to Judaism for exactly that reason.

BTW, a belated welcome to the forum!

 

[TanteBelle]

Even from the Messianic perspective is this not absolutely false?

I don't see how. Torah has only ever been about one law for God's people. God has only been interested in one law for His people. The idea of multiple laws for God's people is a tradition within Judaism, not torah. When God said, 'Speak unto the children of Israel', He was including the large number of Egyptians that came out with them. There were no separate mandates for them to follow.

1 Cor. 7:17-20
Only let each person live the life the Lord has assigned him and live it in the condition he was in when God called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the congregations. 18 Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn't undergo b'rit-milah. 19 Being circumcised means nothing, and being uncircumcised means nothing; what does mean something is keeping God's commandments. 20 Each person should remain in the condition he was in when he was called. In other words if you were a Jew when you became a believer - remain a Jew. If a Gentile (non Jew) - remain a Gentile. This little passage gets overlooked every time. Where does it say in scripture one becomes an Israelite?

The passage you brought up, ma'am refers to circumcision, not about whether or not a Gentile who converts should follow torah. To be more precise, it refers to adult circumcision. Paul was neither anti-circumcision nor pro adult circumcision. The torah law for circumcision was 8 days old. Never in scripture does it say that a Gentile is to remain as a Gentile ('I grew up eating pork and working on Shabbat, so that means I still can!') because then there's no point to faith. Where in scripture does it say that one becomes an Israelite? That's the whole message of faith. One is not an Israelite by blood but by faith. As Paul said, 'Who is Israel?' Now he's talking by faith. The idea of adult circumcision being a necessity for conversion is again, purely a tradition within Judaism. Paul's addressing the issue at the time that one had to become circumcised in order to be saved and Paul's saying, 'Not so!' Whether a man is circumcised or uncircumcised has nothing to do with being saved. It's obedience to torah. I needn't state the obvious, but you can be circumcised and be the biggest heathen: your state of circumcision doesn't suddenly make you saved. On the other hand, you can be uncircumcised and be the most righteous. Timothy was circumcised, Titus was not. One was born a Jew, the other a Gentile who converted. Paul's trying to tell Gentile believers not to seek to become Jews because we are not called to be Jews. But that does not mean that they are exempt from torah.

 

[anisavta]

You are missing the whole point. Circumcision is the outward sign of being a Jew. We are not talking about observing Torah as a Jew or Gentile. Nor are we discussing one's salvation. We are talking about your statement of when you become a believer you are no longer a Jew or Gentile but an Israelite. And I still want scripture calling one an Israelite. People from Israel are Israelites.

 

[yedida]

You are missing the whole point. Circumcision is the outward sign of being a Jew. We are not talking about observing Torah as a Jew or Gentile. Nor are we discussing one's salvation. We are talking about your statement of when you become a believer you are no longer a Jew or Gentile but an Israelite. And I still want scripture calling one an Israelite. People from Israel are Israelites.

Ani,
These are the passages that are often used to justify a Gentile being called an Israelite, I think:
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made by hands in the flesh--
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were apart from Christ, being estranged from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope and atheists in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far away have come to be near by the blood of Christ.

 

[anisavta]

Sure when taken out of context they can be proof text. But when put back into the context it no longer becomes pretext. In other words anyone can make up their own doctrines based on one sentence.

 

[yedida]

Sure when taken out of context they can be proof text. But when put back into the context it no longer becomes pretext. In other words anyone can make up their own doctrines based on one sentence.

Agreed. I simply supplied the text you were asking for, I don't adhere to it

 

[anisavta]

I know.

 

[yedida]

I know.

I did at one time though. In my walk over the last 6 years, although it was not my intention at all, the Spirit let me know that this view is highly anti-semitic! I don't think that the majority of people who think this way are truly anti-semitic, they just haven't "seen" the anit-semitism in the pov.

 

[Ryan Collins]

I don't think a Gentile becomes a Jew once a Gentile comes to the faith. In fact, later on in Ephesians 2 Paul writes:

2:19-22
"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Gentiles thus are not declared as Jews, but instead are fellow citizens. The adoption analogy works perfectly with this Scripture. We are not biological, but we are part of the family and reside under the same household. Through Yeshua, as Paul says, the two are brought together within the same household, yet Paul clearly made distinctions between Jew and Gentile is each of his writings.

 

[yedida]

I don't think a Gentile becomes a Jew once a Gentile comes to the faith. In fact, later on in Ephesians 2 Paul writes:

2:19-22
"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Gentiles thus are not declared as Jews, but instead are fellow citizens. The adoption analogy works perfectly with this Scripture. We are not biological, but we are part of the family and reside under the same household. Through Yeshua, as Paul says, the two are brought together within the same household, yet Paul clearly made distinctions between Jew and Gentile is each of his writings.

 

[TanteBelle]

I did at one time though. In my walk over the last 6 years, although it was not my intention at all, the Spirit let me know that this view is highly anti-semitic! I don't think that the majority of people who think this way are truly anti-semitic, they just haven't "seen" the anit-semitism in the pov.

I haven't time right now to get to everything, but I was curious how you see the idea of 1 law for all believers being anti-semetic? It seems that having multiple laws for various groups is more of an encouragement for division than saying, 'Here's the laws of God; doesn't matter if you are born a Jew or not. Want to be a part? Jump aboard!'

Note: After my latter post, I think I'm starting to see how you might think my views to be anti-semetic but I assure you, they are not. I'm not saying that God has forsaken the Jews or the land of Israel, because He sure hasn't! Though Israel as a people and a nation may have left Him some, He made an everlasting covenant and He's going to stick by His part of the deal. God doesn't change His mind and He doesn't change His covenants (Psalm 89:34). Israel and the Jewish people are still totally in the hand of God.

As a side note, what does bother me is believers rushing into Jewish traditions. I have no problem with Jewish traditions; I think many of them are beautiful and I'd love to have more of them in my life. However, one can easily lose themself in the tradition and looking like a believer but God doesn't see it like that. 'By your traditions you make the word of God of none effect', Yeshua said. What matters most is the word. Traditions can be something very helpful that can add meaning to the word but it is soo easy to lose yourself in 'looking' like a devout believer and be miles away from the word.
I've just befriended an Israeli bloke who's recently been released from the army. He's a great bloke and shows soo much respect for the Jewish traditions of his forebears that I've been brought to the point of tears, it's truely beautiful. But he grew up a secular Jew and has no faith in God! Oh, he believes that God's there, but has no interest in torah or Judaism. He's been brought up to respect and do the traditions without question but he doesn't know why they do them and feels that Judaism has nothing to offer him. It really hurts to see a young man so lost because all he was brought up to view as important was the traditions of men. As Yeshua said, 'teaching for commandments the doctrines of men'. 'By your traditions you make the word of God of none effect!'