Question...

[Ryan Collins]

Yes, a siddur is a prayer book.



Ah, too bad. It's quite funny and if you've been around the various types of shuckeling, he nails them to a "T".

Is it a youtube video: Guide to Shuckeling? If so, I'm loading it on my phone right now...

 

[ChavaK]

Where did the idea of a kippah being respectful come from? If it is not commanded in the torah, is there a basis for its wearing? I guess I am wondering about the significance of the kippah.

Unless you accept and observe Oral Law, there is no need to wear one.
Here is some background on how Jews came to wear yarmulkes:

History / Reason of Kippot Kippah Yarmulke Yarmulkes - LidsForYids.com

Reason & History of Yarmulkes

Have you ever wondered why we wear a Kippah, Kipah, Yarmulka, Yarmulke or whatever you want to call it?

There are many reasons for people to wear Kippot; some are law based some are custom oriented and some are for social reasons. I will try to outline the different aspects with regard to Yarmulke wearing.


Law based

The first source for head covering is biblical. The Torah in Exodus defines the different garments a Cohen (priest) must wear while he is conducting service in the holy temple. One of the garment is a head covering similar to today's Kippah, which would give us reason to wear a Kippah while we are involved in our service of G-D i.e. prayer. It is stated by our sages that prayer today takes the place of sacrifices in the Temple.

The next documented source for Kippah wearing is from the Talmud. The Talmud states that that Rabbi Hunah the son of Rabbi Yehoshua never walked 4 cubits with his head uncovered (he had some form of Kippah). The reason he gave is that "The divine presence is always resting over my head". In reverence of the Divine presence and to acknowledge G-D's presence we would wear a yarmulke. Also the Yarmulke is a constant reminder of G-D's presence. There is also a reference in Tractate Shabbos (156B) "cover your head in order that fear of heaven be upon you". There is another reference to Kippot in Tractate Berachot, which states that the blessing that we say in the morning prayers "he who crowns Israel with splendor" eludes to the Yarmulke. Similarly the Zohar writes that a person should not go 4 cubits without a head covering being that the light of the Shechina (divine presence) is above him and draws down life to him.

The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 2:6) states as a ruling that one may not walk 4 cubits without a head covering i.e. yarmulke

Custom oriented

When something becomes a Jewish custom it is like law and must be followed. The Rashal writes "being that Jews wearing kippot has become universally accepted it maintains the status of law and becomes a requirement for Jews."

The Taz write that being that it is a gentile custom to remove ones head covering while seated, a Jew has the requirement to wear a yarmulke in order not to transgress the commandment of "do not go in the ways of the gentile".

Social reasons

When a person identifies himself as Kippah wearer he creates a certain responsibility to act as G-D fearing Jew should act. The Kippah helps him act accordingly. The Kippah is also worn with pride identifying a person as a member of G-D's chosen people. Many Jews began wearing Kippot after the 6 Day War when they felt tremendous pride in being Jewish.

There is also the social aspect of the Kippah announcing you traditional affiliation. People wearing black velvet or cloth Yarmulkes tends to affiliate themselves with the so-called Yeshivah-style crowd. Modern Orthodox Jew tends to wear leather or knitted Kippot and people who affiliate themselves with Harav Kook might wear large Knitted Yarmulkes. People also use kippot to let people know their name or sports team affiliation or any other announcement of affiliation they might want to advertise.

In conclusion, today it is a requirement not to go 4 cubits without a yarmulke, however shape, color and size is up to the individual.

 

[anisavta]

Oh thanks Chava.
Now I'm going to be analyzing my shuckel.
He has another funny one on shabbos.

 

[TanteBelle]

My question is more about adherence to the Torah. Do you uphold the Torah? If so, what parts (all, dietary, certain portions, etc)? Do those who consider themselves Messianic Gentiles uphold the Torah as well? If so, how was that transition into the adhering to the commands of God?

My father brought us up to observe torah as much as we can without losing torah in the traditions of man. Whatever that may be is up to the individual. We keep Shabbat, the festivals, kosher laws. But things like tzitzits, kippahs, head coverings, and Jewish traditions are something that are up to the conviciton of the individual. (See Romans 14) As to what parts should 'Messianic Gentiles' keep, I truely do not like that term at all as it is a confusion of faith. When we come to faith, we are not suppose to be what we were but who we have become. We're suppose to be grafted in and become a 'new man in Messiah'. We are no longer gentiles so why hold on to the title? Why want the identification? I believe that there is one faith, one body, and one torah of God. To try say that there are different laws for different believers is an encouragement to disfunction in faith and division and we're meant to be in unity. You can't have one people and have more than one law. As God said in torah, 'One law shall be unto the stranger as unto the homeborn.'

I was just a kid when we first came to torah and the following of torah and I do remember being in a very rebellious spirit about it. I thought I was missing out but now I see I was given the best chance to grow spiritually. It's been amazing! I love torah and would never be convinced to turn from it, God willing, anyway. I had to sacrifice a lot in order to follow where I felt God was leading me but it's a journey I sure don't regret going on and pray that I always stay on that path! Following God isn't suppose to be a stroking of your ego. 'Whomsoever the Lord loveth, He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He loves.' It's not suppose to be easy. It is hard and you won't always find God patting you on the back but rather showing you where you are wrong.

What is your opinion of someone who previously tattooed their body?

What is that to anyone? Your past is your testimony of the love of God and the grace of God in your life. Don't hide it but boast for the glory of God. Not for yourself, obviously. I don't hesitate to tell anyone my past but I do so in a way that will have others glorifying God and encouraging them to trust God. It shouldn't be an issue of shame to you. But I wouldn't encourage going and getting more! One can remove tats apparently but that's up to the individual on what they want done there.

As you can tell, I am most interested in this subject and often wonder about the transition to Torah observance (Shabbat preparation, obedience to dietary laws, etc.) for yourself and the family.

I have so many questions about this...

As we Aussies would say, 'Hey, mate, no dramas!!' LOL! Really, you are accountable to your own conscience. If God has led you somewhere and you don't follow the grace that has been given unto you, then that is your burden on your head.

May Abba above be at your right hand and bless you with His Shalom. Shabbat Shalom, sir!

 

[yonah_mishael]

Reading right now and I'll let you know if I have any questions.

Question in general (I'll use this thread for all of my Messianic questions): Does anyone own Stern's Complete Jewish Bible? Is it a beneficial translation or one you would recommend over other English? I bounce around between ESV, TNIV, NRSV currently.

I think you'd do well to stick with the TNIV or NRSV (don't know the ESV). When you get to the point where you can read and understand Hebrew, you won't need his transliterations and such. You will be able to read Hebrew, and that's much better than stilted (sometimes overdone) interpretations.

 

[yonah_mishael]

We keep Shabbat, the festivals, kosher laws. But things like tzitzits, kippahs, head coverings, and Jewish traditions are something that are up to the conviciton of the individual.

But tsitsit are, for men, part of the Torah commandments and not an extra addition. What is your background? You said that your father taught you this. Did you grow up in Messianic Judaism?

 

[Ryan Collins]

The Kosher laws are not as restrictive as I thought they would be. I have a hard time with the meat-dairy aspect of the Kosher laws being derived from that one verse about Goat and mother's milk. Do you observe such a kosher law? Is meat with dairy a BIG deal kosher law or is it a small detail within the large scheme of the kosher law?

 

[TanteBelle]

But tsitsit are, for men, part of the Torah commandments and not an extra addition. What is your background? You said that your father taught you this. Did you grow up in Messianic Judaism?

My background is purely in Christianity. I don't have a problem with blokes wearing tzitzits but I think that it's not something to be taken loosely. I don't know. I think that if a man feels convicted to wear them then that's up to him. My father feels that they are a symbol of holiness and he doesn't feel that right with God that he can start boasting a symbol of holiness. I don't know, that's how he feels. My brother on the other hand wears the tzitzit and I'm very happy for him. I think each man in his own conviction on that one and I wouldn't interfere with that. I'd rather leave the debates about tzitzits, talits, and kippahs up to the blokes!

The Kosher laws are not as restrictive as I thought they would be. I have a hard time with the meat-dairy aspect of the Kosher laws being derived from that one verse about Goat and mother's milk. Do you observe such a kosher law? Is meat with dairy a BIG deal kosher law or is it a small detail within the large scheme of the kosher law?

I'll be honest, I do think that the Jewish tradition of eating no dairy with meat is an extreme way of interpreting that passage. I mean no offence to anyone here and if someone feels to go that far, then that's up to them and I don't have a problem with that but to make it a kosher law I don't feel is in agreement with torah. Torah merely says that a kid is not to be seethed in it's mother's milk; it doesn't say not to eat any meat with any dairy.

One thing that I found interesting while doing biology is that God has written the food laws into science! I stumbled upon it and it was quite facinating. Anyway, that was just for interest's sake!

As for Bible versions, we do have the CJB and we read from that as well as from the KJV. The CJB doesn't give such an impact in many places as the KJV does. Though the KJV has it's problems, personally, I think it the best version to read from so far. I'm about to get the Scriptures and see what that's like. I think it's kinda inbetween the KJV and the CJB. But personally, I'm a KJV person!

 

[xDenax]

The Kosher laws are not as restrictive as I thought they would be. I have a hard time with the meat-dairy aspect of the Kosher laws being derived from that one verse about Goat and mother's milk. Do you observe such a kosher law? Is meat with dairy a BIG deal kosher law or is it a small detail within the large scheme of the kosher law?

I think this goes back to what Chava has already stated,

Unless you accept and observe Oral Law, there is no need to...

 

[Ryan Collins]

Good deal. Is the Messianic symbol something that can/should be embraced by Gentiles? What about the Star of David with a cross in the middle? I've often wondered about this...

 

[TanteBelle]

Good deal. Is the Messianic symbol something that can/should be embraced by Gentiles? What about the Star of David with a cross in the middle? I've often wondered about this...

Again, if that Gentile becomes a believer then they are no longer a Gentile. Was Tamar, Ruth, and Rahab considered pagans after they gave up their pagan past? Uriah the Hittite? Once you give up who you were, you're no longer that. If you're a Gentile and come to faith, you are no longer a Gentile but an Israelite by faith.

The star of David with the cross is one that I've wondered about too. I mean, sure, Yeshua was crucified on a cross but so many more were and the cross is not a nice symbol to carry around. I don't know, I'm not offended by it but I like the Messianic symbol, the star of David, and the Manorah.

 

[yedida]

As far as just the CF icons go, we went through all this at the first of the year. Trying to decide between the scroll, the Magen David w/ a cross, the Jerusalem Seal or the Tree of Life. We pretty much stayed with what we already had.
My personal preferences have always been the scroll and the Tree of Life. I also like the Jerusalem Seal, but not as much as I used to like it. I also like the Menorah, but that is already taken for non-Trin Messianics, oh well.

Outside of CF the only "symbol" that I use is the mezuzzah on my door frames. Nothing on a chain around my neck or wrist, nothing on my Bible or bible cover.....

 

[Ryan Collins]

So there would be no problem, per say, of a gentile wearing the star of David or a Jerusalem seal?

 

[yedida]

So there would be no problem, per say, of a gentile wearing the star of David or a Jerusalem seal?

This is just my opinion. But I don't use any of those symbols because I don't want to appear to be trying to be something that I am not. (Yes, I know the Mezuzzah falls into the same category but at least it's the "standard" way of fulfilling a mitzvot which I believe was given to me as a believer too.) The Magen David and the Jerusalem Seal do not fulfill mitzvot.
Perhaps some of our Jewish friends (believers and non-believers both) will be able to fill us all in better on this. I just hate the thought of being offensive to anyone, so sometimes I wrongly overthink or underthink things.

 

[Ryan Collins]

This is just my opinion. But I don't use any of those symbols because I don't want to appear to be trying to be something that I am not. (Yes, I know the Mezuzzah falls into the same category but at least it's the "standard" way of fulfilling a mitzvot which I believe was given to me as a believer too.) The Magen David and the Jerusalem Seal do not fulfill mitzvot.
Perhaps some of our Jewish friends (believers and non-believers both) will be able to fill us all in better on this. I just hate the thought of being offensive to anyone, so sometimes I wrongly overthink or underthink things.

Understandable. The basis for my question was a result of my research into kippahs and messianic symbols. I noticed that some kippot have embroidered symbols on them. Knowing that in some congregations, Gentiles wear a kippah or jewelry/clothing with commonly known Judaic symbols, if such would be offensive.

 

[anisavta]

Any kind of kippah is available. sports, cartoon, knit, leather, suede, crochet...

 

[Ryan Collins]

Any kind of kippah is available. sports, cartoon, knit, leather, suede, crochet...

I thought the baseball kippah was awesome.

 

[xDenax]

Again, if that Gentile becomes a believer then they are no longer a Gentile....If you're a Gentile and come to faith, you are no longer a Gentile but an Israelite by faith.

Even from the Messianic perspective is this not absolutely false?

 

[anisavta]

1 Cor. 7:17-20
Only let each person live the life the Lord has assigned him and live it in the condition he was in when God called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the congregations. 18 Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn't undergo b'rit-milah. 19 Being circumcised means nothing, and being uncircumcised means nothing; what does mean something is keeping God's commandments. 20 Each person should remain in the condition he was in when he was called. In other words if you were a Jew when you became a believer - remain a Jew. If a Gentile (non Jew) - remain a Gentile. This little passage gets overlooked every time. Where does it say in scripture one becomes an Israelite?

 

[ChavaK]

1 Cor. 7:17-20
Only let each person live the life the Lord has assigned him and live it in the condition he was in when God called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the congregations. 18 Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn't undergo b'rit-milah. 19 Being circumcised means nothing, and being uncircumcised means nothing; what does mean something is keeping God's commandments. 20 Each person should remain in the condition he was in when he was called. In other words if you were a Jew when you became a believer - remain a Jew. If a Gentile (non Jew) - remain a Gentile. This little passage gets overlooked every time. Where does it say in scripture one becomes an Israelite?

Interesting verses, Ani. Thanks for mentioning them.