• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Question

Aibrean

Honest. Maybe too Honest.
Mar 18, 2007
6,298
347
42
Xenia, Ohio
Visit site
✟30,899.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I do.
God doesn't condemn those who can't make a choice...

Our point is: where is that in the Bible. By the way, I'm sure there were infants in Sodom and Gomorrah, on earth at the time of Noah, etc. Not to mention God has a history of smiting.

Read Ezekiel 9
In the sixth year, in the sixth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I sat in my house, with the elders of Judah sitting before me, the hand of the Lord GOD fell upon me there. 2Then I looked, and behold, a form that had the appearance of a man. Below what appeared to be his waist was fire, and above his waist was something like the appearance of brightness, like gleaming metal. 3He put out the form of a hand and took me by a lock of my head, and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the gateway of the inner court that faces north, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provokes to jealousy. 4And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, like the vision that I saw in the valley. 5Then he said to me, "Son of man, lift up your eyes now toward the north." So I lifted up my eyes toward the north, and behold, north of the altar gate, in the entrance, was this image of jealousy. 6And he said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel are committing here, to drive me far from my sanctuary? But you will see still greater abominations."
7And he brought me to the entrance of the court, and when I looked, behold, there was a hole in the wall. 8Then he said to me, "Son of man, dig in the wall." So I dug in the wall, and behold, there was an entrance. 9And he said to me, "Go in, and see the vile abominations that they are committing here." 10So I went in and saw. And there, engraved on the wall all around, was every form of creeping things and loathsome beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel. 11And before them stood seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had his censer in his hand, and the smoke of the cloud of incense went up. 12Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, 'The LORD does not see us, the LORD has forsaken the land.'" 13He said also to me, "You will see still greater abominations that they commit."
14Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the LORD, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15Then he said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? You will see still greater abominations than these."
16And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD. And behold, at the entrance of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east. 17Then he said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations that they commit here, that they should fill the land with violence and provoke me still further to anger? Behold, they put the branch to their nose. 18Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them."

1Then he cried in my ears with a loud voice, saying, "Bring near the executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand." 2And behold, six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his weapon for slaughter in his hand, and with them was a man clothed in linen, with a writing case at his waist. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar. 3Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub on which it rested to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed in linen, who had the writing case at his waist. 4And the LORD said to him, "Pass through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it." 5And to the others he said in my hearing, "Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. 6 Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the house. 7Then he said to them, "Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out." So they went out and struck in the city. 8And while they were striking, and I was left alone, I fell upon my face, and cried, "Ah, Lord GOD! Will you destroy all the remnant of Israel in the outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?"
9Then he said to me, "The guilt of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great. The land is full of blood, and the city full of injustice. For they say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see.' 10As for me, my eye will not spare, nor will I have pity; I will bring their deeds upon their heads."
11And behold, the man clothed in linen, with the writing case at his waist, brought back word, saying, "I have done as you commanded me."
 
Upvote 0

Tu Es Petrus

Well-Known Member
Dec 10, 2008
2,410
311
✟4,037.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I do.
God doesn't condemn those who can't make a choice...
Where is this belief coming from? I'm being serious. I'm willing to be open to it but I have to read it in scripture to believe it.......
AHHAAA!! I see the problem here. You are a Calvinist. Its no wonder you do not accept this. Well, most of us have real problems with the Calvinist view of predestination. But I am aware of your POV.

But I can't understand where these other people are coming from.
 
Upvote 0

Tu Es Petrus

Well-Known Member
Dec 10, 2008
2,410
311
✟4,037.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
....I'm sure there were infants in Sodom and Gomorrah, on earth at the time of Noah, etc. Not to mention God has a history of smiting.....
I'm sure there were too. But I am just as sure that any infants that were in Sodom and Gomorrah are with God in heaven now. The idea that God would send babies to hell is just disgusting.
 
Upvote 0

JustAsIam77

Veritas Liberabit Vos
Dec 26, 2006
2,551
249
South Florida
✟46,808.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
AHHAAA!! I see the problem here. You are a Calvinist. Its no wonder you do not accept this. Well, most of us have real problems with the Calvinist view of predestination. But I am aware of your POV.

Scripture and verse...give me something.*jeapardy music playing*

If it's not in the bible I'm not buying it.
 
Upvote 0

Tu Es Petrus

Well-Known Member
Dec 10, 2008
2,410
311
✟4,037.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Scripture and verse...give me something.*jeapardy music playing*

If it's not in the bible I'm not buying it.

The Bible does not work that way. One must take into account the totallity of what the Bible says about God, and his mercy, and the fact that he desires the salvation of ALL Men.

There is no specific verse that mentions the "Trinity" either.
 
Upvote 0

Tu Es Petrus

Well-Known Member
Dec 10, 2008
2,410
311
✟4,037.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
The Bible does not work that way. One must take into account the totallity of what the Bible says about God, and his mercy, and the fact that he desires the salvation of ALL Men.

There is no specific verse that mentions the "Trinity" either.

Oh, as for God desiring that ALL be saved:

"...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

If God wants it, he will give the grace to make it possible.
 
Upvote 0

Floatingaxe

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2007
14,757
877
73
Ontario, Canada
✟22,726.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Oh, as for God desiring that ALL be saved:

"...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

If God wants it, he will give the grace to make it possible.

Yes that's His desire, but it's not gonna happen, is it?
 
Upvote 0

Criada

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2007
67,838
4,093
59
✟160,528.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Yes that's His desire, but it's not gonna happen, is it?

Well, we are told to pray for His will to be done, and that is what I pray daily. How He answers it is up to Him, I don't know and I am not going to guess.
God's will is for all to be saved... may His will be done!
 
Upvote 0

JustAsIam77

Veritas Liberabit Vos
Dec 26, 2006
2,551
249
South Florida
✟46,808.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
The Bible does not work that way. One must take into account the totallity of what the Bible says about God, and his mercy, and the fact that he desires the salvation of ALL Men.

There is no specific verse that mentions the "Trinity" either.


  1. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
  2. "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all ..." (1 Timothy 2:5)
  3. "There is one body and one Spirit ... one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:4)
  4. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
  5. "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and find pasture ... I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John 10:9)
  6. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." (John 11:25)
  7. Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." (John 8:12)
  8. And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:35)
  9. "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)
  10. "... whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:15-16)
  11. "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)
  12. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)
  13. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24)
  14. "... And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11)
  15. "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:14)
Scripture is clear that apart from Jesus there is no salvation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Floatingaxe
Upvote 0

JustAsIam77

Veritas Liberabit Vos
Dec 26, 2006
2,551
249
South Florida
✟46,808.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Well, we are told to pray for His will to be done, and that is what I pray daily. How He answers it is up to Him, I don't know and I am not going to guess.
God's will is for all to be saved... may His will be done!

If God wanted everyone to be saved it would be so.
 
Upvote 0

Criada

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2007
67,838
4,093
59
✟160,528.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
If God wanted everyone to be saved it would be so. The amazing thing is that He chooses to save anyone. Amazing grace and mercy indeed.

If?
Did you miss this post?
Oh, as for God desiring that ALL be saved:

"...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

If God wants it, he will give the grace to make it possible.

You appear to have argued yourself into universalism :)
 
Upvote 0

JustAsIam77

Veritas Liberabit Vos
Dec 26, 2006
2,551
249
South Florida
✟46,808.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
If?
Did you miss this post?


You appear to have argued yourself into universalism :)

Nothing of the sort. God is Sovereign and is perfectly capable of doing anything that pleases Him. Do you not think He would be able to save everyone on earth with a wave of His hand if He chose to do so?
 
Upvote 0

Aibrean

Honest. Maybe too Honest.
Mar 18, 2007
6,298
347
42
Xenia, Ohio
Visit site
✟30,899.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I'm sure there were too. But I am just as sure that any infants that were in Sodom and Gomorrah are with God in heaven now. The idea that God would send babies to hell is just disgusting.

Not something you'd want to have happen but it's possible nonetheless because there is no scripture to back up where babies go when they die. WE just know where "all go" who do not believe in Jesus and "all go" who do. We can not know if babies believe in Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Floatingaxe

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2007
14,757
877
73
Ontario, Canada
✟22,726.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
The Bible does not work that way. One must take into account the totallity of what the Bible says about God, and his mercy, and the fact that he desires the salvation of ALL Men.

Yes, Scripture works that way.
 
Upvote 0

Floatingaxe

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2007
14,757
877
73
Ontario, Canada
✟22,726.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Well, we are told to pray for His will to be done, and that is what I pray daily. How He answers it is up to Him, I don't know and I am not going to guess.
God's will is for all to be saved... may His will be done!

You and I both know that there are millions of souls who God so loves, are have already died and yet they are going to hell--against His will, but according to their own. God's will is constrained by our own. That's how He created it to be.
 
Upvote 0

MrJim

Legend 3/17/05
Mar 17, 2005
16,491
1,369
FEMA Region III
✟59,025.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You and I both know that there are millions of souls who God so loves, are have already died and yet they are going to hell--against His will, but according to their own. God's will is constrained by our own. That's how He created it to be.

Agreed, God doesn't always get what He wants...
 
Upvote 0

Tu Es Petrus

Well-Known Member
Dec 10, 2008
2,410
311
✟4,037.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
If God wanted everyone to be saved it would be so.
God does not want anyone to perish. But God did not create robots: He gave us free will to choose good or evil. He would prefer that we ALL chose the good. But many will not.
 
Upvote 0

Tu Es Petrus

Well-Known Member
Dec 10, 2008
2,410
311
✟4,037.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Oh, as for God desiring that ALL be saved:

"...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

If God wants it, he will give the grace to make it possible.
If?
Did you miss this post?
You appear to have argued yourself into universalism :)
And you apparently do not read very well. I did not say that everyuone WILL be saved. The Bible says that God WANTS all to be save, not that all WILL be saved. God calls all men to Him: That is because God loves us. But it is up to US to hear the call and obey. Some will, and some won't.

Universalism is a false teaching. I am a Catholic!! We do not believe in Universalism. In my personal opinion, there will be more people in hell than in heaven. And many of those people in hell will be so-called Christians who talk about Jesus out of one side of their mouths while condemning their fellow man out of the other.

- - But in the case of my hypothetical little Muslim boy: It is not his fault if he dies in some remote hut having never been exposed to the Gospel. But God will reveal at least SOME light to him, and if he responds correctly to whatever God reveals to Him, the child too may be saved. That is JUSTICE and MERCY - a concept that many people in this thread seem to have no grasp of.
 
Upvote 0