Question

[angrylittlefisherman]

I was asking myself this question earlier and I could not answer it myself.
If an Orthodox christian cannot find it within his/her self to be a good Orthodox Christian. If he/she is insincere. But can be sincere in another expression of Christianity for example protestantism of some kind. Would it be better for this person to sincerely love Christ in that expression or remain lukewarm in Orthodoxy.
Thoughts any one?

 

[gzt]

This is an utterly false dilemma. The answer is that this is never really the case.

 

[angrylittlefisherman]

Agreed. However what I want to know is
Is it better to love Christ with all your hear, soul, mind and strength and be wrong about some things dogmatically than to be completely right dogmatically and have no love for Christ?

 

[Ramon96]

I was asking myself this question earlier and I could not answer it myself.
If an Orthodox christian cannot find it within his/her self to be a good Orthodox Christian. If he/she is insincere. But can be sincere in another expression of Christianity for example protestantism of some kind. Would it be better for this person to sincerely love Christ in that expression or remain lukewarm in Orthodoxy.
Thoughts any one?

Being Lukewarm was one of the problem with the Church of Laodicea (Rev 3:16). Though I believe the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (and none other is), I am incline to say that if this particular Orthodox Christian feel that he can be sincere in another expression of Christianity, he should leave Orthodoxy (a choice he ultimately have to make), but honesty is this the step one should take in this situation? Why leave Orthodoxy? Why? Make no sense to me. The Devil will always make one feel they should leave the truth. Saint Peter told us to "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8)

I also want to point that this "feeling" is not from God. The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. God will not redirect one to a Schismatic Church. If someone come to me with this comment, I will must surely tell him or her to pray about this and talk to his or her Spiritual Father.

Personally, I feel that we all get Lukewarm now and then. But it shouldn't make one leave Orthodoxy.

Sorry if I was not very helpful. This is just my 2 cents.

In IC.XC,
Ramon

 

[Ramon96]

Agreed. However what I want to know is
Is it better to love Christ with all your hear, soul, mind and strength and be wrong about some things dogmatically than to be completely right dogmatically and have no love for Christ?

First, many of our Latin/Eastern Catholic and Protestant brothers truly have a deep love for Christ with all there hear, soul, mind and strength regardless from the fact that they are dogmatically incorrect in some areas. But why will one be in Orthodoxy yet have no love for Christ, but at the same time love Christ in a Catholic or Protestant tradition? Make no sense to me. One should love Christ ever more in Orthodoxy because that is where the fullness of the faith is. Everything in Orthodoxy, from Holy Icons to Feasts (etc), makes us love Christ more.

 

[ikonographics]

So I should go where I feel better?

 

[Ramon96]

So I should go where I feel better?

A "feeling" to leave Orthodoxy is not from God, in my opinion. One should pray ever more and talk to there Spiritual Father if this occur. One thing we must remember is that is not what we feel but what God wants that matters.

 

[Epiphanius]

Well, my question would be, can a person knowingly walk away from the fullness of Truth, and be making a positive step in their spiritual life? I sincerely doubt it. What does it mean to be a "good" Christian anyway? If being a "good" Christian means loving Christ with all one's heart, soul and mind, how does walking away from God's Truth, and His True Church, demonstrate that? I submit that person will be the same kind of Christian no matter where they go, they may just feel better about themselves in a context that does not point out their weaknesses as acutely. Speaking personally, I felt like a great Christian while I was Protestant, I feel my faults much more acutely now that I am Orthodox. Allegorically, the Truth is fire and burns away impurity, this is not a painless or comfortable experience, but it is necessary. Sticking with the allegory here, if one puts oneself in a situation where Truth is diluted, the fire of Truth is not as hot, it is not as painful, it is also not as effective.

 

[ikonographics]

A "feeling" to leave Orthodoxy is not from God, in my opinion. One should pray ever more and talk to there Spiritual Father if this occur. One thing we must remember is that is not what we feel but what God wants that matters.

Exactly. We mustn't base our decision on which church we go to based on feeling. Salvation is not about where one will have the warmest fuzziest feelings about God. If a person feels the need to go to another church where they can feel more sincere, it is clearly a temptation. The devil will always try to lead us astray by tempting us to follow what will make us feel better. Orthodoxy is not about being sentimentally united with God, but ontologically.

 

[Ramon96]

Exactly. We mustn't base our decision on which church we go to based on feeling. Salvation is not about where one will have the warmest fuzziest feelings about God. If a person feels the need to go to another church where they can feel more sincere, it is clearly a temptation. The devil will always try to lead us astray by tempting us to follow what will make us feel better. Orthodoxy is not about being sentimentally united with God, but ontologically.

I agree. What not this the whole point in the Temptation of Jesus Christ? The Devil must assuredly tempted Jesus to follow what he felt. But he did not yield to the Devil's temptation but follow the truth that was reveal in the Holy Scriptures. We must learn to do the same. We must follow the direction of Holy Spirit and the Church. The truth is not based upon the human senses.

 

[Rowan]

I was asking myself this question earlier and I could not answer it myself.
If an Orthodox christian cannot find it within his/her self to be a good Orthodox Christian. If he/she is insincere. But can be sincere in another expression of Christianity for example protestantism of some kind. Would it be better for this person to sincerely love Christ in that expression or remain lukewarm in Orthodoxy.
Thoughts any one?

First, I would say that person would need the counsel and prayers of the confessor and maybe any other trusted confidante who are mature in Christ.

Second, I agree with the other posters--it may be an issue that they need to gain perspective and understanding on, but it is best to stay within the care of the Church to be strengthen by Her while all of this is worked out.

Why is why I can't say which scenario is "better" for that individual, since the goal is to be in love with the Lord in His Church, and to put a spark in lukewarmness within the Church...if you get what I mean.

 

[Asinner]

I was asking myself this question earlier and I could not answer it myself.
If an Orthodox christian cannot find it within his/her self to be a good Orthodox Christian. If he/she is insincere. But can be sincere in another expression of Christianity for example protestantism of some kind. Would it be better for this person to sincerely love Christ in that expression or remain lukewarm in Orthodoxy.
Thoughts any one?

Without love I am nothing. If you are asking whether being Orthodox is more important than having love, then I would say that if I have all faith as to remove mountains, yet have not love ... Being Orthodox does not guarantee having love. What it does signify is our wretched state if we are Orthodox, but hate our brother. What excuse will we have if found in the bosom of the Church without love?

Love,
Christina

 

[Monica child of God 1]

It is better to stay in the Church and wrestle with acedia than give in to it. A lukewarm state is evidence that the passions are taking hold. We are not to give in to the passions.

It is also good to recall what Abba Moses, one of the most experienced of the fathers, told me. I had not been living long in the desert when I was troubled by listlessness [i.e., acedia]. So I went to him and said: Yesterday I was greatly troubled and weakened by listlessness, and I was not able to free myself from it until I went to see Abba Paul. Abba Moses replied to me by saying: So far from freeing yourself from it, you have surrendered to it completely and become its slave. You must realize that it will attack all the more severely because you have deserted your post, unless from now on you strive to subdue it through patience, prayer and manual labor.

Amma Theodora said:

You should realize that as soon as you intend to live in peace, at once evil comes and weighs down your soul through acedia, faint-heartedness, and evil thoughts. It also attacks your body through sickness, debility, weakening of the knees, and all the members. It dissipates the strength of soul and body. ... But if we are vigilant, all the temptations fall away.

M.

 

[angrylittlefisherman]

I agree with you Epiphanius. I cannot see how walking away from the fullness of truth would be better for anyone.