Question

[DLraing]

Hi. Im new here. I have been lurking for a couple weeks with no real desire to post until recently. I am NOT a Christian; but, I am respectful and Im not here to flame. I like the balance of this site. It is nice to see a place where christians and non-Christians can "live" with each other in relative harmony. My intentions are not to disrupt things. That being said...I have a question Id like to ask of the Christians: how do you justify mental defects in human beings, from a religious standpoint? How would you explain why babies are born into this world suffering from mental retardation, austism or Down's Syndrome etc.(and to lesser extent illnesses like schizophrenia and other psychoses that usually develop in the adult human)? To me these "afflictions" are on a whole different strata than any physical ailment because with these mental conditions the subject is robbed of something that most people would consider intrinsically human (I am not implying that they are less-than-human), namely intellect and probably an array of complex emotions in some cases as well(and in the case of psychoses-their sanity). How do Christians reason why this is allowed to happen? Thank you. I am looking forward to replies.

 

[openeyes]

Welcome..... Your probably going to get a varied set of answers on this one.
This is MY theory, we were created and given a special place, and given special treatment, but our physical makeup is basically the same as any other of the creatures created. Any defects come the same way defects in other creatures come about......
1. genetics
2. enviromental conditions
3. physical damage
God's power can overcome these defects, though. I don't think he causes them, he may allow it to happen, but not cause them. By allowing it to happen he can see the compassion, and giving nature we should all have been given.
How can someone "justify" a defect from any standpoint?
God Bless, and I hope that you could see the light and come to Jesus to believe in him as a saviour and that there is a Creator from which this world has sprung.

 

[Salsa_1960]

I have 3 daughters. My youngest has autism. Her name is Elizabeth. Elizabeth is unable to talk and so there is little to no communication between us-- except that I know she likes it when I sing to her. (She loves music). My daughter is also severely/profoundly mentally retarded. I don't understand why things like this happen. Medically, I understand it, but spiritually and philosophically, I don't. I'm sure I never will understand why God allows these things while I'm still on this side of Heaven.

I would guess that mental retardation, autism, schizophrenia, etc. occur because we live in a world that is far from perfect, but I know that this life is but a speck in the realm of eternity. In Heaven, Elizabeth will be perfect and Heaven is forever. I find that comforting.

~Sandy

Elizabeth's Page: http://www.geocities.com/sandymeyers/elizabeth.html

 

[Salsa_1960]

These are the lyrics to a song from a few years back that really touched me:

SOMETIMES MIRACLES HIDE

They were so excited it was coming to be,​

Two people so in love and now soon there would be three,​

For many years they planned it. Now soon it would be true,​

She was picking out the pink clothes, He was looking at the blue.​

The call came unexpected the doctor had bad news,​

Some tests came back and things weren't right,​

said you're gonna have to choose,
"I'll wait a week for your decision"
and then the words cut like a knife ,
"I'm sure everyone will understand if you want to end its life".

Though they were badly shaken
they just had no choice,
Because they knew God creates no accidents
and they were sure they heard His voice

Sayin' sometimes miracles hide,
and God will wrap some blessings in disguise
and you may have to wait this lifetime
to see the reasons with your eyes,
cause sometimes miracles hide.

It seemed before they knew it the appointed day arrived,
with eager apprehension they could barely hold inside,
The first time they laid eyes on her confirmed the doctors fears
but they held onto God promise they were sure they both could hear.

Sometimes miracles hide,
and God will wrap some blessings in disguise
and you may have to wait this lifetime
to see the reasons with your eyes,
cause sometimes miracles hide.

Though she was not like the other girls they thought she was the best,
and through all the years of struggle neither whispered one regret.
And the first day that she started school and took her first bus ride,
they'd remembered the words that God had spoke
and they both broke down and cried.

You see to them it did not matter why some things in life take place,
cause they just knew the joy they felt when they'd look into her face.
They learned that sometimes miracles hide,
they said God Has wrapped our blessing in disguise
and we may have to wait this lifetime
to see the reasons with our eyes,
we know sometimes miracles hide.

 

[Salsa_1960]

Oops. I double posted.

 

[Reformationist]

Hi. Im new here. I have been lurking for a couple weeks with no real desire to post until recently. I am NOT a Christian; but, I am respectful and Im not here to flame. I like the balance of this site. It is nice to see a place where christians and non-Christians can "live" with each other in relative harmony. My intentions are not to disrupt things.

First off, welcome, and thank you for asking your question with a godly attitude.

That being said...I have a question Id like to ask of the Christians: how do you justify mental defects in human beings, from a religious standpoint? How would you explain why babies are born into this world suffering from mental retardation, austism or Down's Syndrome etc.(and to lesser extent illnesses like schizophrenia and other psychoses that usually develop in the adult human)? To me these "afflictions" are on a whole different strata than any physical ailment because with these mental conditions the subject is robbed of something that most people would consider intrinsically human (I am not implying that they are less-than-human), namely intellect and probably an array of complex emotions in some cases as well(and in the case of psychoses-their sanity). How do Christians reason why this is allowed to happen? Thank you. I am looking forward to replies.

Mental and physical defects in humanity are a direct result of the progenitive corruption of the sins of Adam and Eve. This is not to imply, in any way, that a child is born with some mental or physical defect exclusively because of their parents' sins. We must seek to look at this from a God centered rather than man/self centered point of view. The more visible "defects" in humanity are no different, in their necessity, than those that are more subtle, like anger, or backbiting, or any other sinful weakness. I say they are necessary because it is through the weaknesses of ourselves and others that the children of God are conformed to His likeness. How other than dealing with a person who struggles with anger will we be formed into one who can deal with that person in love, with a godly desire to seek their welfare. It is no different with those who have some mental or physical malady to deal with. Like the wonderful mother who posted before who has an autistic child. Many may look at that role as a burden. I am sure that she does not. It comes out in her posting. She loves her child and is obviously focused on the welfare of her child. For her, and for those who encounter her beautiful child, they view, or should view, it as an opportunity, a blessing. God, in His sovereign providence has deemed it righteous to give to them a child who requires parents who will put someone else's needs before their own. That is the epitome of godliness. I'm sure that raising an autistic child is often a trial. However, it is a trial that I'm sure she revels in because it is a daily reminder of the beauty of the Lord's magnificent providence. It is a daily reminder of the Lord's desire that we truly love those around us, that is, seek their best with no consideration of how that impacts ourselves. I am truly thankful that the Lord has given me three healthy children and it makes me even more thankful that He has created those to whom He has given the grace to consider others, like the woman who posted before me.

In summation, the Lord has providentially designed things of this nature to come to pass that we may be conformed in our daily struggles. It is one of the methods by which we learn to love others first, before we submit to our own fallen self love.

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

It is through these trials that the Lord has sovereignly deemed that we will be made perfect and complete, lacking nothing. Trusting in the sovereign Will of a Holy and Omnipotent God is not something that often comes easy but it is the power of His divine Will that truly conforms us.

God bless,
Don

 

[DLraing]

sandinmyears, I thank you very much for replying. I found your answer honest and touching. I asked this question because I wanted to hear other's opinions on this matter, not because I am confused about it. Personally, I agree with you; I don't think such afflictions can be spiritually justified in this temporal plane.
Now, I'd like to ask you a personal question--and if you do not want to answer it believe me I wholly understand. You say that your daughter will be perfect in heaven, but she doesnt have the capacity (as you admit) to accept God or Jesus. Now this seems to me to imply that you believe that your daughter and others like her get a free pass to heaven (so to speak). Is this what you believe? Im only trying to understand where youre coming from...

 

[Cat59]

My sister has schizophrenia and epilepsy and my son learning difficulties (we use that term as opposed to retarded in the UK) autism and something which some people think is epilepsy and some psychosis. There's a suspicion that their conditions are related genetically plus my son had some brain damage soon after birth. As you can imagine, your question has shouted loud in my heart many times. There have been times when I've been so angry at a God who allows such things as autism and schizophrenia. It's taken me a long time to get to where I am now, where I trust and hope rather than rage and despair. Unless you believe in a God who is eternal and who will make all things new and whole in heaven, it does make no sense at all.
I used to get very angry with people who used to trot out platitudes about how much Jesus suffered on the cross and how I should think of that. I used to think "Huh, fine for him! He KNEW everything was going to be OK, that his suffering would end." One day the penny sort of dropped that that was what he was saying to me, that whatever we suffer in this life, in the next, if we hold to him and trust in him,all will be well.
I have grown so much by knowing my sister and my son. I thank God for them but continually pray that their sufferings will cease, while placing my trust in the Lord.
Cat

 

[Cat59]

sandinmyears, I thank you very much for replying. I found your answer honest and touching. I asked this question because I wanted to hear other's opinions on this matter, not because I am confused about it. Personally, I agree with you; I don't think such afflictions can be spiritually justified in this temporal plane.
Now, I'd like to ask you a personal question--and if you do not want to answer it believe me I wholly understand. You say that your daughter will be perfect in heaven, but she doesnt have the capacity (as you admit) to accept God or Jesus. Now this seems to me to imply that you believe that your daughter and others like her get a free pass to heaven (so to speak). Is this what you believe? Im only trying to understand where youre coming from...

IMO, children like ours are like the children brought to Jesus in the bible- of them he said "it is to such as these as the kingdom of heaven belongs."

 

[TCapp]

According to Genesis 3:17, the world is under God's curse because of man's rebellion against God. This "bondage of corruption" with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22) is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere.

God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).

 

[Salsa_1960]

My sister has schizophrenia and epilepsy and my son learning difficulties (we use that term as opposed to retarded in the UK) autism and something which some people think is epilepsy and some psychosis. There's a suspicion that their conditions are related genetically plus my son had some brain damage soon after birth. As you can imagine, your question has shouted loud in my heart many times. There have been times when I've been so angry at a God who allows such things as autism and schizophrenia. It's taken me a long time to get to where I am now, where I trust and hope rather than rage and despair. Unless you believe in a God who is eternal and who will make all things new and whole in heaven, it does make no sense at all.
I used to get very angry with people who used to trot out platitudes about how much Jesus suffered on the cross and how I should think of that. I used to think "Huh, fine for him! He KNEW everything was going to be OK, that his suffering would end." One day the penny sort of dropped that that was what he was saying to me, that whatever we suffer in this life, in the next, if we hold to him and trust in him,all will be well.
I have grown so much by knowing my sister and my son. I thank God for them but continually pray that their sufferings will cease, while placing my trust in the Lord.
Cat

Cat, I myself have epilepsy. I also have bipolar disorder and ADHD (in myself and in my family). Not the same as schizophrenia, but many genetic similarities. I posted about it on this thread. My posts were #66, #70 and #74. http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1194237#post1194237

I also touch on it on thread as well (posts #17 and #20): http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1287119#post1287119

~Sandy

 

[Salsa_1960]

sandinmyears, I thank you very much for replying. I found your answer honest and touching. I asked this question because I wanted to hear other's opinions on this matter, not because I am confused about it. Personally, I agree with you; I don't think such afflictions can be spiritually justified in this temporal plane.
Now, I'd like to ask you a personal question--and if you do not want to answer it believe me I wholly understand. You say that your daughter will be perfect in heaven, but she doesnt have the capacity (as you admit) to accept God or Jesus. Now this seems to me to imply that you believe that your daughter and others like her get a free pass to heaven (so to speak). Is this what you believe? Im only trying to understand where youre coming from...

I can't imagine any child (or adult) such as my daughter being d***d to hell. Yes. I see her as having a "free pass."

 

[DLraing]

I dont see how any Christians could disagree with that assessment sandinmyears...the alternative goes against everything we are told about God's benevolent nature. But I myself do not understand God in sooooo many ways :/

 

[Stanfi]

sandinmyears, I thank you very much for replying. I found your answer honest and touching. I asked this question because I wanted to hear other's opinions on this matter, not because I am confused about it. Personally, I agree with you; I don't think such afflictions can be spiritually justified in this temporal plane.
Now, I'd like to ask you a personal question--and if you do not want to answer it believe me I wholly understand. You say that your daughter will be perfect in heaven, but she doesnt have the capacity (as you admit) to accept God or Jesus. Now this seems to me to imply that you believe that your daughter and others like her get a free pass to heaven (so to speak). Is this what you believe? Im only trying to understand where youre coming from...

There is an age of accountability. Some will argue that it is a specific age, others will not. It comes at the point when you understand right and wrong. Also you have been informed of the gospel of Christ, and the plan of salvation. At this point in your life you have a decision to make. Either you accept Christ as your personal saviour or you reject Him. Those who accpet have heaven awaiting as their home, those you reject, eternal hell. If a person is never able to understand, and comprehend this, then I do believe they never reach the age a accountability. Therefore will not be condemed to hell.

 

[set free in Christ]

Interesting discussion

The child, or adult, that has a mental problem will probably not ever make it to the catagory of (accountability). I go with what someone else said "free pass". The only problem is it cost someone everything. It cost Jesus "all" and there is no such thing as free.

What ever the judgment that GOD hands down it will be perfect!

The point I am trying to get to is that this price and "free pass" has been paid so that everyone may go to heaven. The big problem is it is called a lie by the majority. We can guess..what about that person...what about this person...what about those over there. What about you!

 

[Jinn_Ku]

I don't know about anybody else, but I have learned more about unselfish love, giving, and true thankfulness from a handful of "mentally retarded" individuals than I have from the thousands of "normal" people I know.