Question

[toirewadokodesuka]

Read this: link

Says it all better than I could.

theres a lot of just because arguments in that article, but THANKS! its just i like more meat on the bone like a source u know... anywayz... the main reason i dont agree is because the inquisition is documented by the Church. theres no denying that it was a bloodbath caused by many of our early forefathers. i forget the lecture, but apparently the vatican recorded the methods whereby preists and nuns tortured heretics...

now thats what im so troubled about. but that was so long ago anyway. i dont think the vatican would ever do that again!

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

In those times there was no modern political theory, kings depended on the Church for legitimacy.
If you did not believe in the Church, you probably do not believe in the King either. God and Country were intrinsicaly tied.
So the Kings were very jealous to stamp out heresy. And in those times Churches took salvation very seriously. False doctrines were sending people to Hell and had to be stopped. Is like those annoying evangelicals or JW of today that what to save you and keep pestering you because they are concerned for your salvation but their methods were much more serious them. That set the pace for the inquisitions.
There were three.
The Papal inquisition in Italy that was the most benign.
The French inquisition to stap out the Cathari heresy and the infamious Spanish inquisition.
But remember, torture was a normal procedure in those times not only in the Inquisition but in most court of law, also burning at the sake (death by asfixiation) was more bening that quartering or dismembering, normal ways to execute people in those times. The Inquisition was more benign that most civilan courts of the times.
The Papal inquisition was from the Pope.
The French and Spanish ones were actually established by the Kings, not by the Church, king that knew if heresy spreads in France they will loose their crowns.
The Spanish have a huge problem with large numbers of Jews and Moslems in Spain that did not believe in the divine rule of Queen Isabella.
Even the number of deaths was relatively small.
The popular Catholic/Protestant withhunts of the 17 century killed more people, as the war of religion at that time.

it just seams so unlike the catholic church i know of now. i have a very difficult problem acknowledging what was taught way back in the times of the old church, because i know that it was done in a spirit of hatred... its like how can i say... my trust of many things has been almost gone. thats sad, because my folks are good people.
all i know is if i was in those times when the papazy was like that i would of faught for all the heretics and pagans and shown them the way of love instead of hatred............. oh my gash, but there were actaully quite a lot of brothers and sisters who were trying to make a difference and helping heretics.
anywayz ya. blah dee blah i must be bored to type so mush!

oh btw... but there were christians who were called witches too i think...

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Non-catholic faiths are also guilty of poor judgement in the past. And both the Catholic church and non-catholic faiths will inevitably make errors again in the future. However despite errors made at times by the church, the original deposit of faith and catholic teaching has not suffered. Which is something that no other church can claim. And as such one can see how God's guiding hand is ever present on his church and that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

Maybe attacking you is his defensive way of being able to find out more about catholicism.
Why don't you take him along to Mass and see how he feels afterwards.

ur words are kind
but i dont believe our religion's teachings are perfect... or any other religion for that matter.... ugh im tired now... dont be so offended by what i say btw [=

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Yeah great point. Hey ask your buds how they can belong to a Fundamental Protestant faith when lots of their forefathers were responsible for founding and building the KKK. If they fail to get the point, just start calling them all 'Mr. Lynch'.

On second thought maybe that might be counterproductive. But it sure would be fun!

humans r so disgusting hey..... why god oppoints us for anything amazes me... like king david and solomon for instance. he works with such sinners!

 

[SolomonVII]

Catholic Europe was a diabolical time.
In fact, the only things worst than Catholic Europe were pre-Catholic Europe and post-Catholic Europe.

 

[SolomonVII]

and no, Hitler didn't need the pope to give him his marching orders.
Neither did Stalin.

 

[InTheCloud]

Sites like Chicks are full of half information so it distorts the truth about us.

"Half information".
JCP has ever printed something real about the CC?
The prince of lies is strong there.
But I do suspect mental illness.

 

[GlynnWa]

We all have dark days in our lives.

 

[Davidnic]

theres a lot of just because arguments in that article, but THANKS! its just i like more meat on the bone like a source u know... anywayz... the main reason i dont agree is because the inquisition is documented by the Church. theres no denying that it was a bloodbath caused by many of our early forefathers. i forget the lecture, but apparently the vatican recorded the methods whereby preists and nuns tortured heretics...

now thats what im so troubled about. but that was so long ago anyway. i dont think the vatican would ever do that again!

Actually there is much historical evidence against your point. I don't know what lecture you are referring to but to refer to the inquisition as a bloodbath is simply not historically accurate except by the standards of inaccurate easily disputed revisionist history.

Church records also don't support what you are saying. Neither do the records of Spain, France or Italy. Church records of the Inquisition document the execution of less than 200 people in inquisitions between 1240-1550. That is still a horrible thing...but it is not what popular culture and modern revisionist and anti-Catholic scholarship pretends. Taking into account other sources the highest reliable historical estimate for the 300 year period is around 5000. A high and horrible number. And the Church's role in this must not be denied. But you need to look at facts and not fiction.

There is not denying that there were many things done wrong by the Church in this issue. But the facts do not support the inquisition as normally presented. Most death totals cited are greater than the population of all of Europe at the time.

If you want to look into the foundation of most myths of the Inquisition they can be traced to a Protestant pamphlet from 1567 attributed to a man named Montanus.

There is a documentary on this topic by the BBC fomer 1994 that is worth a look if you can get a copy. Many libraries carry it on VHS I don't know if there is a DVD version. Here is an article on it: link

If you want deeper historical research than the Catholic Answers link give the video a look.

 

[Caritas3]

"Half information".
JCP has ever printed something real about the CC?
The prince of lies is strong there.
But I do suspect mental illness.

He may give a small amount of info of what we believe, then distorts it, and doesn't present the Scripture , or more like omits the Scripture of why.
Even putting on my 'protestant thinking cap" anyone knowing their bible, knows he is full of it.

Ppl that follow him and repeat his stuff, and knows anything at all about the bible, knows that he is bunk and what is worse than ignorance is spreading crud about the faith on purpose. God help them.
I feel so bad of all the ppl that he misleads, or I should say lies to (he is not ignorant), to non-Catholics and Catholics alike.

I feel sad for him.

 

[QuantaCura]

it just seams so unlike the catholic church i know of now.

The thing is, the same principles applied then are applied now. There is a treatise on civil government which addresses corporal punishment. It first lays out the same principle that is in the Catechism today--however, then it says all sorts of people should be subjected to corporal punishment (murderers, heretics, forgers, etc.) while today the Church says it almost never applies?

So what was the difference? They had different information (often erroneous) than we have today--they applied the same unchanging principle to particular facts (or at least what they thought were facts).

I definitely don't want to down-play the abuses, but it was the same Church of saints and sinners. Likewise, one could in good conscience disobey any legislative directive to participate in such behavior if it ever came about today--since it is not the declaration of an objective truth (which we all must receive in faith), but rather an application of that truth in a particular circumstances--and that is a realm where the conscience is supreme.

So don't get down-hearted because Catholics committed sins--rather rejoice that we have a redeemer to save us from our own transgressions (and they from theirs) no matter how horrible a sin it is.

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

i guess unless the vatican allows its people to freely roam through ALL of its archives / records and accounts, it will always remain a dark secret and nothing more.

 

[Davidnic]

i guess unless the vatican allows its people to freely roam through ALL of its archives / records and accounts, it will always remain a dark secret and nothing more.

Every country involved has records of that time. The beginning of the "Black Legend" is easily traced. People often combine the era with the Reconquista and the Albigensian heresy period. This fuels biased claims and poor scholarship.

There are no hidden records of that time. No scholar worth their salt maintains that there are hidden records at the Vatican from the Inquisition. The Vatican catalogs records and then allows access. It sometimes takes time but usually no more than 100 years or so until all principles are dead.

Even the Vatican Secret Achieves have been accessible to outside scholars for years and that is an unbroken string of documentation from the late 1100's until now. Currently the only things kept secret are medieval records of the Apostolic Penitentiary involving confessor/penitent disputes. Under seal of confession they can not be made open. Other documents in other archives from 1941-now are currently being cataloged for access.

So there is no dark secret and there is access that can be easily shown. You are being overly dramatic.

 

[BAFRIEND]

I don't think the inquisition went far enough.

I don't defend it nor do I critisize it.

I just think they should have taken it further.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

toirewadokodesuka:
Read some Catholic Catechisms! It'll help you with learning about our Holy Catholic Faith!

Here's a list of catechisms that are approved via imprimatur by the Church:


These are in handy Question and Answer Formating, which are for very easy use of learning and reading in order that one might educate one's self in the One True Holy Catholic Faith:
A Doctrinal Catechism

The Balitmore Catechism

Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X

The Douay Catechism of 1649

Compendium of the Catholic Catechism

Whilst these particular catechisms below are more detailed and compended into concise but detailed paragraph formats which explain the One True Holy Catholic faith as in the manner of an explanatory textbook style-form:

Catechism of the Council of Trent (a.k.a. "The Roman Catechism")

The Catechism of the Catholic Church


(Of Note: in order to learn specifically about the Catholic faith and her objections to the various Protestant heretical sects, especially the "A Doctrinal Catechism," but also the Catechisms of "The Douay Catechism of 1649" and "Catechism of the Council of Trent" would help educate, enlighten, and edify one not only better in regards to the Catholic Faith, but also the objections raised against her.)
Take care and do read with the mind of Church and with prayer to our Blessed Lord Christ Jesus with his grace always and at all times.
God bless you sir,
sincerely,
Ravenonthecross

 

[Virgil the Roman]

These are treasure-troves of Spiritual riches contained with these catechisms that and a version of the Holy Catholic Bible such as:

Douay-Rheims

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/

Although this website NewAdvent.org website has the the same Bible version as the link above; it contains a most excellent encyclopedia about our Holy Catholic Faith.

Another on-line version of Catholic Scripture may be found below:

The New Jerusalem Bible


Of Note:
I sincerely recommend to you a good solid orthodox Catholic Version of the Holy Bible, the reason, being as Protestant bibles such as the :NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc. are missing the Deuterocanon (seven Old Testament books, which the Holy Catholic Church in her wisdom and guided by the Holy Ghost deemed canonical and thus were put in the canon of the Holy Bible by the One True Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. )Furthermore, protestant versions of the Bible are purposefully translated in order to avoid most Catholic Interpretations of Holy Scripture and when this not done with the scriptural texts themselves, often heretical and anti-Catholic footnotes or commentary is used with the various Protestant bibles. Therefore, I urge caution when using a distorted and incomplete version of Scripture as the Protestant Scriptures are; which are oftentimes such as the few that I mentioned above. Thus one should only use Protestant Bibles as a secondary source in conjunction with a Catholic Bible as primary source, when in comparing the differences between the Holy Catholic Faith, and the various Protestant Sects' faiths and in order to better instruct one's self and others on how the Holy Catholic Church alone can correctly guard and interpret Holy Scriptures as she is guarded by the Holy Ghost as opposed to the lack of the fullness of the Christian faith found often in Protestant scriptures.

In Christ's Peace,
Matthew

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Below are a list of good Catholic Apologetics sites in order that one may learn more about our Blessed Lord's Holy Catholic Church and the objections raised against her (note I may have repeated a websites that I'd mentioned in previous posts!)


http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Apologetics.php
http://www.catholic.org/news.php
http://www.newadvent.org/
http://www.catholic.com/default.asp

 

[stephenc]

Ah, forget it...

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Catechisms are good, but being allowed full access to absolutely everything our Church has... all of its secretes would give me the oppertunity to form a much wholer opinion of myself and my church and decide for myself

 

[WarriorAngel]

ok, im really confused now about the inquisitions and why the popes authorised it!??? .... my friend keeps on going on about this. what should i say... what do you think about this? he keeps on saying... how can i believe the popes were perfect if they authorised the inquisitions? But they didnt authorise the inquisitions!

I assume he is protestant...?

Well, how come the protestant leaders did the same thing??

The inquisitions have many variables...many.

The secular governments held their own inquisitions...
And if ppl blasphemed the Lord...they were sent to be delt with by the Church.
BUT...many did that BECAUSE the Church was more prone to compassion that the secular governments.

Tell your friend to stop reading revised additions.