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MariaRegina

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The saints counsel us to pick our spiritual fathers carefully and with much prayer.

If the advice a priest gives appears to be wrong, then it might be wrong, but the advice given may be wrong because we have withheld certain important facts. We must prayerfully discern and question our own motives. Then we must really understand the advice given, because we could have misunderstood the advice given. If we only tell our priest certain facts, he may have come to a wrong conclusion.

Then too, Priests are not infallible. They need our prayers too, as they can be living a lie.

Not too long ago an Orthodox priest ran off with the parish secretary abandoning his wife and children. When the bishop found out, he was defrocked.

So we must pray for wisdom for both ourselves and our Priest.
 
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joyfulthanks

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forgivensinner001 said:
There is a lot of difference between applying a teaching to an individual situation and applying an individual opinion to the interpretation of Scripture and the development of doctrines.

Please bear with me here - I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to understand. (And mods, if you doubt that, please keep in mind that I have been a serious inquirer into Orthodoxy for over a year. I'm not the enemy.)

This very thread is an issue that, apparently, the fathers don't agree on. Then you add the element of different priests interpreting what the different fathers say differently and applying them to different situations. If you really think about it, I just don't understand how that's substantially different from what we protestants do.

Help?

Your sister in Christ,
Grace
 
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Vedant

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Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy are different from protestants in that the church fathers are ordained sacramentally. The fathers are direct successors to the original 12 apostles of Jesus. If all the fathers through time, there would be an unbroken chain of ordained people all the way down to the first 12 that Jesus ordained. The point I've learned from this is that only an ordained person may make another person ordained, in the most simplistic explanation. Paul, for example, wasn't one of the original 12, but was ordained before establishing churches everywhere. This is why Orthodoxy isn't in any way like *most* protestants. (It could be argued that Anglicans, Episcopalians, and maybe Lutherans could also be thought of in this way.)

All Protestant movements have stemmed from the Roman Catholic church and almost all of them have been started by the laeity, common Christians, not priests. Priests generally know that breaking communion with others is the last thing that anyone wants. Just like divorce between married people.

Now I can understand why Eastern Orthodoxy can seem like Protestantism. Some Eastern Orthodox priests would never support birth control, while others could see it being used in certain situations. I have this same exact problem with Eastern Orthodoxy.

HOWEVER, Western tradition predominates Christian thought, in protestant religions and the Roman Catholic church. Part of my own personal discomfort with Eastern Orthodoxy is a wanting to look at the world in a state of right actions and wrong actions, black and white. So maybe this problem I have with Eastern Orthodoxy isn't really a problem, but an incapacity to look at things from another point of view...in shades of grey as opposed to black and white.

Is Christianity to be thought of as a light switch, or a light dial? That is, in Western thought, the light is either on or off, but in Eastern thinking, the light continues to get brighter.

I just have a hard time replacing my light switch for a light dial....
 
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MariaRegina

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forgivensinner001 said:
There is a lot of difference between applying a teaching to an individual situation and applying an individual opinion to the interpretation of Scripture and the development of doctrines.

Thanks, forgiven. BTW, what is your church name?

Grace said:
But how does that objectively differ from a protestant choosing his/her pastor with much care and prayer? (See my previous post for what I mean.)

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

Protestants usually only use the Bible as their sole authority. They may consult with the pastor, but they don't ascribe to him any real spiritual authority. He just delivers the sermon and the eulogy. Furthermore, they do not have a spiritual relationship with him as a Spiritual Father.

We Orthodox develop a spiritual bonding with our priest who knows the intimate embarassing details of our sinfilled lives. He becomes our Spiritual Father and is accountable to God for our salvation.

Since we must confess our sins to our chosen Spiritual Father, it is important to get to know him by talking with him during the catechumenate. We need to build a trusting relationship with him.

If a priest appears angry, impatient, etc. then it will be impossible to confess. One of my former spiritual fathers had this problem with anger and impatience. He would rush me in confession, even though the total time spent for confession was usually less than two minutes. Then finally he told me to only come to confession once a year. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know when something isn't working out. I finally asked another priest to guide me, and he agreed. He gives me the freedom to come to confession at any time, although I usually confess about four to six times per year.
 
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Dust and Ashes

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contriteHeart said:
Please bear with me here - I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to understand. (And mods, if you doubt that, please keep in mind that I have been a serious inquirer into Orthodoxy for over a year. I'm not the enemy.)

This very thread is an issue that, apparently, the fathers don't agree on. Then you add the element of different priests interpreting what the different fathers say differently and applying them to different situations. If you really think about it, I just don't understand how that's substantially different from what we protestants do.

Help?

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

I do understand that but the issues that are treated with economy in Orthodoxy are issues that can be dealt with in that way without compromising the Faith. There is always the "fence" around the mysteries to keep us from going too far with an opinion.
 
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MariaRegina

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Vedant said:
Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy are different from protestants in that the church fathers are ordained sacramentally. The fathers are direct successors to the original 12 apostles of Jesus. If all the fathers through time, there would be an unbroken chain of ordained people all the way down to the first 12 that Jesus ordained. The point I've learned from this is that only an ordained person may make another person ordained, in the most simplistic explanation. Paul, for example, wasn't one of the original 12, but was ordained before establishing churches everywhere. This is why Orthodoxy isn't in any way like *most* protestants. (It could be argued that Anglicans, Episcopalians, and maybe Lutherans could also be thought of in this way.)

All Protestant movements have stemmed from the Roman Catholic church and almost all of them have been started by the laeity, common Christians, not priests. Priests generally know that breaking communion with others is the last thing that anyone wants. Just like divorce between married people.

Now I can understand why Eastern Orthodoxy can seem like Protestantism. Some Eastern Orthodox priests would never support birth control, while others could see it being used in certain situations. I have this same exact problem with Eastern Orthodoxy.

HOWEVER, Western tradition predominates Christian thought, in protestant religions and the Roman Catholic church. Part of my own personal discomfort with Eastern Orthodoxy is a wanting to look at the world in a state of right actions and wrong actions, black and white. So maybe this problem I have with Eastern Orthodoxy isn't really a problem, but an incapacity to look at things from another point of view...in shades of grey as opposed to black and white.

Is Christianity to be thought of as a light switch, or a light dial? That is, in Western thought, the light is either on or off, but in Eastern thinking, the light continues to get brighter.

I just have a hard time replacing my light switch for a light dial....


There is sin and there is sanctity. Black and white. If we deliberately, knowingly, and freely choose to violate one or more of God's commandments, then we cut ourselves from the life of the Church. In that state, we can damn ourselves to hell.

As part of the human race, however, we inadvertently, indeliberately, or unknowingly sin perhaps 70 times per day. That is why we are asked to confess our sins to one another (see the Bible). And our saints tell us to get up if we fall down. So our whole life is a series of getting up after we fall down, 70 times a day. We get a lot of exercise that way. :D

We can choose to live a life of holiness and strive toward theosis by avoiding all sins in our life. This is the life of monasticism. The monastics live the angelic life.

We who are not monastics are given economia by the Church. This economia allows us to modify the fast (even ill monastics don't fast but temper the fast). Economia is also applied in marriage. If a couple comes from a western protestant background, then the priest may allow the use of condoms. If a couple comes from a Catholic background where birth control is frowned upon, then the same priest may ask the couple not to use artificial birth control but perhaps to use Natural Family Planning depending on their situation.

With the problems many older men experience, many older couples probably do not enjoy maritial relations because they cannot. So, unless they use viagra (etc.), they learn to live without it.

p.s. I don't know of any Orthodox priest who allows the use of abortifacient pills, IUD, etc, as these chemicals can kill the embryo by preventing it from attaching to the uterine lining where it can obtain nourishment. Orthodoxy doesn't sanction abortion or murder of the born and unborn. Some saints are even squeamish about killing flies and mosquitos.
 
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VickiY

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The best way to put this is that there are NO two schools of thought on any issues that one is required to believe. (such as the Trinity, the Nicene Creed, etc.) The Church has ruled on this in Ecumenical Councils under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There are simply oooooooooodles of things that the Church has NOT decided in Council.

Now, one's spiritual father has read various opinions (remember, the Church is infallible under the guaidance of the Holy Spirit, but no single member of the Church is anything other than a fallible human being). One's spiritual father has also got a very good (one hopes) knowledge of where you are at, spiritually, and what your sources of temptation are.

Now...I'll give an analogy. Your spiritual father is like your doctor. You choose him for his ability to heal your soul with the best possible medicine, and keep you healthy. Now, anyone who has read medical literature knows that there are MANY medicines to treat any given illness. The doctor must make the best decision possible, using the information you have given him, to maintain and increase your physical health.

Your spiritual father does the same. If the issue is not dogma, then he decides what will best aid you on the path to theosis, through his knowledge of you.

The difference between the protestant point of view is that in Orthodoxy, we NEVER think WE have our own answers as to what is best for us. Sort of like we will never, ever, decide we can diagnose and treat our own life-threatening illnesses without a doctor.

Again, in Orthodoxy, we have the issue of obedience. When one has a spiritual father, one places himself entirely in that person's care. We tell the whole truth, and then we GIVE OBEDIENCE. Orthodoxy teaches us that if we are following the direction of our spiritual father with as much good will as we can, then we are not held spiritually accountable for our issues stemming from that obedience.

For instance, this story about St. John Maximovitch illustrates some of that advice turned personal:

Archpriest George Larin, who had been an altar boy of Vladyka’s in Shanghai, relates: “Despite Vladyka’s strictness, all of the altar boys loved him very much. To me, Vladyka was an ideal, one which I wanted to emulate in every way. Thus, during Great Lent, I would not sleep in bed, and instead lay on the floor. I would not eat my usual meals with the family, but instead would partake of bread and water in solitude….My parents became worried and took me to Vladyka. Hearing them out, the prelate asked the guard to go to the store and bring a sausage. In response to my tearful cries that I did not wish to violate Lent, the wise prelate admonished me to eat the sausage and to always remember that obedience to parents is more important than personal accomplishment. “How then should I proceed, Vladyka?” I asked, hoping nonetheless to “especially” apply myself. “Go to church as you always did, and at home, do what your mother and father ask.” I remember how grieved I was that Vladyka did not assign to me some “special” deeds to accomplish.”

In this case, we see pride in ones fasting actually being a spiritual sin. Does the Church specifically outline the fast? YES! (as it gives the exceptions, as well). Does the Church also recognize that pride in being so strict is a sin? You bet. But that is an individual call, not for an individual to make, but for one who knows that individuals soul, prays for it, and does his best to guide it aright, as mistakes rebound on his own soul...one's spiritual father.

Thus, we note that as in medicine, no matter what sort of wonder drug many doctors swear by, if it will harm the patient, the patient's doctor will not give it to him.

In Orthodoxy, we rely on our spiritual father to "prescribe" for us. And God rewards the trust by not saying "You listened to your spiritual father and ate meat during the fast...that's a sin!". The opposite is true. We are told obedience is better than sacrifice, and we do not even need to confess that we ate the meat, under the direction of our spiritual father.

In protestantism, Sola Scriptura makes the individual the final authority on what God is, or is not "convicting" him to do.

Orthodoxy says otherwise...our priest, who has the grace of Apostolic Succession upon him (which we do not) will tell us what we should do for the health of our souls. We follow, in obedience.

Does that help?
 
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MariaRegina

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Vedant said:
Another difference between Roman Catholics and Orthodoxy is that Orthodoxy is much more personal while Roman Catholics are much more broad. That is, the pope is the "doctor" for everyone whereas in Orthodoxy each priest is the "doctor" for people in his church.

Now, you are understanding the situation.

In the ancient church, there was one bishop appointed to oversee each church. Then as parishes started to grow, the bishop ordained elders (priests) to take his place and administer the sacraments in the many churches under him.

In the Orthodox Church, we are not centralized as in Catholicism.

In Orthodoxy, each Bishop rules over his diocese and cares for his priests, deacons, monastics, and laity. Even the patriarch doesn't rule over the bishops, but a Holy Synod of Bishops comes to agreement in certain matters. The Patriarch is the leader of that synod, but he doesn't issue infallible statements, he just precides in love (which is what St. Peter did).

However, in Catholicism, the Pope and his Vatican Cardinals, rule over the bishops who then rule over the faithful. However, the Pope has the power of Papal Supremacy whereby he rules over each Catholic too.
 
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Vedant

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One thing I am exploring is the difference between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy. Unlike what many people assert (including here), much of the theology between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy remain exactly the same, that is, Eastern Catholics don't believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, the Son proceeding from the Father and the Son, Transubstantiation, categorizing between mortal and venial sins, etc. much like Eastern Orthodoxy. What they do believe is that all of these things make sense when Christianity is approached from the Western perspective. That is, they acknowledge all of these things are valid when Christianity is viewed from the Western perspective.

HOWEVER, as much as Eastern Catholics want to assert that they are the same as Eastern Orthodoxy except for papal primacy of Rome, I don't feel they are. The issue of contraception, in Orthodox thinking wouldn't be an issue of right or wrong, but rather an issue of whether it is bringing you closer or farther away from communion with God. I feel this beautiful lack of absolutism in analyzing morality prevalent in Eastern Orthodoxy has been sacrificed by Eastern Catholics for the sake of being in communion with Rome.

Right now, my mind wants Catholicism, but my heart has always wanted Orthodoxy.

I am still discerning whether or not Eastern Catholics have truly sacrificed their non-absolutist approach to morality or not, but right now I am inclined to say that they have sacrificed it.
 
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MariaRegina

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Vedant said:
One thing I am exploring is the difference between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy. Unlike what many people assert (including here), much of the theology between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy remain exactly the same, that is, Eastern Catholics don't believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, the Son proceeding from the Father and the Son, Transubstantiation, categorizing between mortal and venial sins, etc. much like Eastern Orthodoxy. What they do believe is that all of these things make sense when Christianity is approached from the Western perspective. That is, they acknowledge all of these things are valid when Christianity is viewed from the Western perspective.

HOWEVER, as much as Eastern Catholics want to assert that they are the same as Eastern Orthodoxy except for papal primacy of Rome, I don't feel they are. The issue of contraception, in Orthodox thinking wouldn't be an issue of right or wrong, but rather an issue of is it bringing you closer or farther away from communion with God. I feel this beautiful lack of absolutism in analyzing morality prevalent in Eastern Orthodoxy has been sacrificed by Eastern Catholics for the sake of being in communion with Rome.

Right now, my mind wants Catholicism, but my heart has always wanted Orthodoxy.

I am still discerning whether or not Eastern Catholics have truly sacrificed their non-absolutist approach to morality or not, but right now I am inclined to say that they have sacrificed it.


Look into the annulments sanctioned by the Eastern Catholics. They have given into Western thinking there.
 
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kamikat

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Vedant said:
??? What are these?

Do you not know what an anullment is or are you asking how the Eastern Catholics use them?
From what I can tell, the Eastern Catholics practise the same form as the Roman Catholics. If you need more details, let me know.

kamikat
 
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Vedant

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kamikat said:
Do you not know what an anullment is or are you asking how the Eastern Catholics use them?

kamikat

No, I didn't know what the Orthodox meaning of annulment was. I know what it is in the Catholic sense, and now in the Eastern Catholic sense. Anyway, even though I'm happy to know more, this is a very sad discovery. I want so badly to believe that the Catholic church fully contains both lungs, but it doesn't. I want that so badly.
 
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