Question that perplexes me

[Montalban]

Interesting how you would take an analysis other than your own as "self loathing". I wonder why.

I gave the reasons why. Perhaps you missed them?

Yes, Islam contains some aspects that are dangerous in my opinion. But does this invalidate the natural human response to feeling threatened by an outside army?

What Ecuadorian suicide bombers did you hear of during that war? How many Peruvians urged total surrender of Ecuador to Peruvian way of life, demanding the women change the way they dress, etc.

And how is their justification any better than yours?

What justification did I mention?

We in the west are not saintly innocent you know.

Where did I say that we were?

We are guilty of much evil as you probably know.

Where did I deny this?

Do you think the Incas thought the Spanish a welcome force? Some did, for a while. Most did not. The Aztecs?

If you've ever read Diaz's "Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España" regarding Hernán Cortés' attack on Mexico you'll note many Aztecs fought on the side of the Spaniards. I only have the Penguin Classics version; The Conquest of New Spain

Why is it "self-loathing" to acknowledge that we're not innocent?

He didn't state that. He said it was understandable due to what we've done. There was no acknowledgement in his posts about any underlying hatred on their part. Their violence was portrayed as an understandable (justified, perhaps) reaction to us

Why is it "self-loathing" to acknowledge a rather central aspect of the human psyche and indeed nature - the sense of belonging and cultural identity that is.

Islam forces its cultural identity onto others.

Why is it that even non-colonized countries want to use western technology? Why is it that Chinese students sought to have democracy in China? China was never colonized.

India, which was colonized didn't abandon democracy upon independence. Furthermore they didn't reinstate suttee which those nasty Britons forced them to give up

 

[TheReasoner]

I gave the reasons why. Perhaps you missed them?


What Ecuadorian suicide bombers did you hear of during that war? How many Peruvians urged total surrender of Ecuador to Peruvian way of life, demanding the women change the way they dress, etc.

What justification did I mention?

Where did I say that we were?

Where did I deny this?

If you've ever read Diaz's "Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España" regarding Hernán Cortés' attack on Mexico you'll note many Aztecs fought on the side of the Spaniards. I only have the Penguin Classics version; The Conquest of New Spain


He didn't state that. He said it was understandable due to what we've done. There was no acknowledgement in his posts about any underlying hatred on their part. Their violence was portrayed as an understandable (justified, perhaps) reaction to us

Islam forces its cultural identity onto others.

Why is it that even non-colonized countries want to use western technology? Why is it that Chinese students sought to have democracy in China? China was never colonized.

India, which was colonized didn't abandon democracy upon independence. Furthermore they didn't reinstate suttee which those nasty Britons forced them to give up

Alas I have no time to address your post in it's entirety at this time. But do not forget that we too force our cultural identity upon others. I think we have a few things right. But I do not think we are justified in our cultural imperialism any more than they are or were.

I recommend you read open veins of latin america for another view of the west's actions.

 

[Montalban]

Even though I don't have to justify myself, I'm always interested in dialogue.

For the record I have not in anyway tried to excuse evils done by westerners

These were done for a number of reasons, not solely by religious people, not always with evil in mind - sometimes bad things were done for the right reason. Secularists are always telling me that, for instance, the US was NOT founded as a Christian country. It's a case of these people wanting all arguments at once, so long as Christianity is attacked.

Against this you have bad things done by Moslems BECAUSE of Islam. So the comparisons aren't that good anyway, because 'the west' is a great amalgam of peoples and ideas.

Moslems risk death every day fleeing to the west. My own country tries turning them away or processing them through legal fictions such as an 'exclusion zone' -which again, for the record, I don't agree with.*



*-Some years ago I got kicked at by police whilst I was on a protest against our former Immigration minister. There was a dinner at Darling Harbour (Sydney) for the then minister Phillip Ruddock for being the longest serving Immigration minister.

 

[Montalban]

Alas I have no time to address your post in it's entirety at this time.

Alas I expected no more

But do not forget that we too force our cultural identity upon others. I think we have a few things right. But I do not think we are justified in our cultural imperialism any more than they are or were.

The West sweeps peoples up and makes them part of it. Australia is 'western' and multi-cultural and supports a vast array of identities. You may not have heard of us.

The national Capital city, Canberra in the Australian Capital Territory, has developed a tradition of the National Multicultural Festival, held over a week in February.[9] Additionally, Canberra has numerous other inter-cultural events, such as the Thai Food Festival held at Wat Dhammadharo,[10] Canberra's Thai temple, on 2009-04-19.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism_in_Australia

I recommend you read open veins of latin america for another view of the west's actions.

Latin America is considered 'western'

 

[TheReasoner]

Alas I expected no more


The West sweeps peoples up and makes them part of it. Australia is 'western' and multi-cultural and supports a vast array of identities. You may not have heard of us.

The national Capital city, Canberra in the Australian Capital Territory, has developed a tradition of the National Multicultural Festival, held over a week in February.[9] Additionally, Canberra has numerous other inter-cultural events, such as the Thai Food Festival held at Wat Dhammadharo,[10] Canberra's Thai temple, on 2009-04-19.
Multiculturalism in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Latin America is considered 'western'

Even so. Read it. Longer answer coming later

 

[clirus]

Montalban quote

Islamic hatred of non-Moslems starts in the Koran.

Response

I agree with that statement.

The Koran sends out a mixed message of love and hate/righteousness. So does the Old Testament of the Bible.

The difference is that the New Testament of the Bible adds an attitude of tolerance between love and righteousness.

Both the Jews and Muslims need the Jesus of the New Testament.

 

[Ar Cosc]

But that doesn't mean that they have to have democracy.

Iraq under Hussein didn't have this kind of violence (true they had other forms).

What form of government would you suggest then? Democracy isn't perfect, but it's far better than any form of totalitarianism.

Another of your modernist liberal ideas.

I see this self-loathing quite a bit. It's easy to ignore centuries of history and pretend that their hatred is a reaction to we bad westerners.

Self-loathing? How is it self-loathing to point out that at least some of the ill-will of the Middle East towards the West is due to the nasty habit Western Nations have of deposing their governments and stealing their resources?

Islamic hatred of non-Moslems starts in the Koran.

It runs on a bit of internal logic.

For Muhammed to come along with a mission from his god he either needed to bring a new message or reform the old. In the case of Islam he claimed to present the same message as previous prophets and therefore as a type of 'reformer' or a person bringing a renewal of the old message one asks what happened to the message when it was previously given.

And there the Koran is full of passages about the Jews and Christians hearing al-Lah and turning their back on him.

And what kind of people would do this? Well there'd have to be something wrong with them.

The Koran thus also says not to take a Kaffir as a close friend.

And there's just as much stuff in the Bible about not associating with non-Christians, and how most of them are worthy of death. So what? Most Muslims don't follow the Quran to the letter, same as most Christians don't kill witches or stone people who gather sticks on a Sunday.

Islam burst out onto the scene against two near exhausted empires; the Roman and the Persian. With a military zeal they have been at war with the rest of the world on and off ever since.

I don't agree with everything Ibn Warraq writes, but you might want to take a look at Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism

All these people in the Middle East who claim we're corrupt, debauched, etc. all want our products; computers, tvs, cars, mobile phones etc.

I quite like Pakistani food. Does this make some deep philosophical point about me as a person?

 

[Montalban]

What form of government would you suggest then? Democracy isn't perfect, but it's far better than any form of totalitarianism.

It's not up to me to suggest it. It's up to them! I thought that was the whole point. You seem hell-bent on telling everyone else what they should believe.

Self-loathing? How is it self-loathing to point out that at least some of the ill-will of the Middle East towards the West is due to the nasty habit Western Nations have of deposing their governments and stealing their resources?

a) you didn't point this out, you made a blanket statement
and
b) 'the west' is no different in doing this than say China is trying to do or Japan did.

And there's just as much stuff in the Bible about not associating with non-Christians, and how most of them are worthy of death.

a) tu quoque at best
b) straw-man at worst. As Christian I'm not aware of any interpretation of verses telling me this. In the past I've cited Islamic opinion on their Koran. That is, it's not ME interpreting their Koran, but ME quoting their interpretation - against YOUR interpretation of the Bible now

So what? Most Muslims don't follow the Quran to the letter,

I agree. But that's the very point, at its heart Islam is a promoter of evil

same as most Christians don't kill witches or stone people who gather sticks on a Sunday.

Based on your straw-man again

What you have is evidence on Islam as interpreted by Moslems -v- evidence on Christianity based on YOUR interpretation of Christianity.

I quite like Pakistani food. Does this make some deep philosophical point about me as a person?

You seem to be having trouble again making comparisons. Unless you're seeking to import Pakistani culture, and aim for their form of society, then you've missed the point (again)

 

[TheReasoner]

It's not up to me to suggest it. It's up to them! I thought that was the whole point. You seem hell-bent on telling everyone else what they should believe.

a) you didn't point this out, you made a blanket statement
and
b) 'the west' is no different in doing this than say China is trying to do or Japan did.


a) tu quoque at best
b) straw-man at worst. As Christian I'm not aware of any interpretation of verses telling me this. In the past I've cited Islamic opinion on their Koran. That is, it's not ME interpreting their Koran, but ME quoting their interpretation - against YOUR interpretation of the Bible now

I agree. But that's the very point, at its heart Islam is a promoter of evil

Based on your straw-man again

What you have is evidence on Islam as interpreted by Moslems -v- evidence on Christianity based on YOUR interpretation of Christianity.



You seem to be having trouble again making comparisons. Unless you're seeking to import Pakistani culture, and aim for their form of society, then you've missed the point (again)

Now now, you've made your share of assumptions. And blanket statements. You should be quite aware that there are different interpretations of the Koran as there are of the bible. There are rather crazy interpretations of the bible which hold no real value, or harm Christianity as a whole. Westboro Baptist Church is a case in point.

That said, I have read the Koran, and I am aware of the history of Islam. At least in rough outlines. Am I aware of the violent potential? Yes. The cultural imperialism? Yes. The history of war and bloodshed starting with Mohammad himself? Yes. Am I also aware of the transgressions of the west? Yes. Both within the west and against the rest. Again, I suggest you read open veins. Not as an example of what the west does to non-west countries. But what the powerful countries do and have done to maintain profit and power.

I am under the impression that you are attacking the middle east without much regard for the sins we ourselves are guilty of. Are they dangerous? Yes. Are we dangerous? Yes. Are hey cultural imperialists? Yes. Are we? Yes.And you can argue - as you have - that the rest of the world craves western products and lifestyle. I fail to see how this is beneficial though. I am not aware of your level of education, but it does not take much to see that the way we live is not sustainable. So we could argue that spreading of the western way has the potential to be the worst possible sin as it may yet topple civilization as we know it. This is not self-loathing. It is a mere analysis of cold hard numbers: We consume more and more of resources which are finite. The consumption of said resources has certain consequences both potential and present including global climate destabilization and war. The west's focus on the individual has it's benefits, but at the same time I am of the opinion that it feeds an avarice which is extremely harmful.The focus on "me" as opposed to "us" in essence means that society as a whole and also our resources are fed into satisfying the needs of the increasingly narcissistic mob that is the western population. We are incredibly capable as a species. We can solve the problems we face, but as most of our resources go to r&d related to luxury products we haven't come close to taking the challenges we face seriously enough and so they grow.

I do not think bombing the middle east back to the stone age is the answer. I do not think killing the west is either. I think Jesus has the answer to this as well. And it is - as far as I understand His teachings - to show love. To share, not hoard. To strive for peace, not war.

I deduce - from your insults - that it is likely you disagree. As it is you have bordered on calling me ignorant and stupid for no other reason than that I appear to disagree with you. Hardly Christian behavior, would you say?

 

[Ar Cosc]

It's not up to me to suggest it. It's up to them! I thought that was the whole point. You seem hell-bent on telling everyone else what they should believe.

And most people will chose some form of rule by the people, instead of a dictatorship.

a) you didn't point this out, you made a blanket statement
and

One from which anyone with a decent knowledge of the history of the region would have realised what I was talking about.

b) 'the west' is no different in doing this than say China is trying to do or Japan did.

And the locals aren't too thrilled about that either.

a) tu quoque at best
b) straw-man at worst. As Christian I'm not aware of any interpretation of verses telling me this. In the past I've cited Islamic opinion on their Koran. That is, it's not ME interpreting their Koran, but ME quoting their interpretation - against YOUR interpretation of the Bible now

You've misunderstood my argument. It wasn't "The bible is also bad, so things some Muslims do are okay", it's "The bible also has bad parts, but most christians aren't obeying them, so it's possible for the same thing to be true of Islam."

I agree. But that's the very point, at its heart Islam is a promoter of evil

Your opinion. My many Muslim friends are a living contradiction to that opinion.

Based on your straw-man again

What you have is evidence on Islam as interpreted by Moslems -v- evidence on Christianity based on YOUR interpretation of Christianity.

There aren't many ways of interpreting "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

You seem to be having trouble again making comparisons. Unless you're seeking to import Pakistani culture, and aim for their form of society, then you've missed the point (again)

Buying a TV and drinking a coke isn't wanting to import Western culture. Just as eating a nice saag aloo doesn't mean I want to turn Ireland into an Islamic Republic.

 

[clirus]

faith guardian quote

I do not think bombing the middle east back to the stone age is the answer. I do not think killing the west is either. I think Jesus has the answer to this as well. And it is - as far as I understand His teachings - to show love. To share, not hoard. To strive for peace, not war.

Response

Hope without realism is basically a lie.

A hope for peace and an attitude of peace is good, but after being attacked it is foolish to assume peace is possible.

After an attack, it is appropriate to do whatever is necessary to prevent further attacks, even if it means bombing them back into the stone age.

 

[TheReasoner]

faith guardian quote

I do not think bombing the middle east back to the stone age is the answer. I do not think killing the west is either. I think Jesus has the answer to this as well. And it is - as far as I understand His teachings - to show love. To share, not hoard. To strive for peace, not war.

Response

Hope without realism is basically a lie.

A hope for peace and an attitude of peace is good, but after being attacked it is foolish to assume peace is possible.

After an attack, it is appropriate to do whatever is necessary to prevent further attacks, even if it means bombing them back into the stone age.

Ah. How many nations do - according to your ideology of armed retaliation - have the ideological requirement to hit back against the US? Quite a few. So, what makes your position so righteous that you can attack and kill anyone you like without any reprisal being justifiable, whereas your own retaliations against retaliations against you suddenly becomes legitimate?!

You say "whatever it takes to win" is justifiable. Well, what about all the unjust wars the US has started? And what about all the innocent civilians the US has harmed or killed with these wars? Aren't they entitled to retaliation as well? And given that it does not seem the US is willing to let it's aggression go, aren't they - by your own logic - entitled to bombing the US back into the stone age?

 

[MacFall]

The answer is, because it is profitable for the state, and because the people at large are basically ignorant.

 

[Montalban]

Now now, you've made your share of assumptions. And blanket statements. You should be quite aware that there are different interpretations of the Koran as there are of the bible. There are rather crazy interpretations of the bible which hold no real value, or harm Christianity as a whole. Westboro Baptist Church is a case in point.

You're more than welcome to resort to evidence

 

[Sphinx777]

Ares



​

 

[ProScribe]

Haven't different countries been at war for many centuries? . .Instead the U.S. becomes a peace-keeping force.

 

[Sphinx777]

Hawk and Dove 1/3
Hawk and Dove 2/3
Hawk and Dove 3/3



​

 

[Montalban]

And most people will chose some form of rule by the people, instead of a dictatorship.

That's different from YOU imposing democracy upon them.

One from which anyone with a decent knowledge of the history of the region would have realised what I was talking about.

You made a blanket statement that is patently false. If it's your premise to make inaccurate statements because you just assume everyone knows what really happen then I believe you've got a very unique way of conversing with people.

And the locals aren't too thrilled about that either.

No doubt. It's not inherently western to be at fault

But there you are both bagging the West and yet wanting to impose a western value on them yourself - democracy!

You've misunderstood my argument. It wasn't "The bible is also bad, so things some Muslims do are okay", it's "The bible also has bad parts, but most christians aren't obeying them, so it's possible for the same thing to be true of Islam."

Based on your understanding of the Bible... no I didn't miss that at all

Your opinion. My many Muslim friends are a living contradiction to that opinion.

Yes, I get that a lot. I provide evidence from Islamic experts, but you know a few people!

There aren't many ways of interpreting "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

Again you're imposing your views of this, this time on me

Buying a TV and drinking a coke isn't wanting to import Western culture.

I didn't reduce my argument to just that. Which is why your attempt was a massive misrepresentation

There's T-shirts, books, movies, democracy, telephones, television, medicines, educational systems, cars, etc.

Granted that many of the products are now made in the east, but they are 'western'. The ideas are western too.

So where are we up to now?

You making broad sweeping statements that have nothing to do with reality because it misses Islamic hatred pre-dates western imperialism. Oh, but you have weighed this up against your interpretation of the Bible and you know a few Moslems!

What you've done is repeatedly posted yourself as an expert and then oddly enough reduced my argument to being of my opinion - that is, to the same level of your post.

Here's more expert opinion for you to weigh your own opinion against.

Firstly, what the Koran says...
AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

Now, if you think that this verse is taken out of context, let's hear from some Moslem experts
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?

Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, "This is my brother," when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
MISCELLANEOUS \ Muslim Minorities \ The brotherhood of man

Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".
Taqiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.
Islam Question and Answer - What is meant by taking the kuffaar as friends? Ruling on mixing with the kuffaar

"Clarification of the important rule: it is haraam to take kaafirs as close friends and protectors
Praise be to Allaah.
Yes, examples will certainly explain and clarify what is meant, so we will move straight on to quoting some of the most important points that the scholars and leaders of da’wah have said about different ways of showing friendship towards kaafirs."
Clarification of the important rule: it is haraam to take kaafirs as close friends and protectors

That's just having non-believers as close friends!

There's much more on their opinion of Jews and Christians in total

 

[Montalban]

Haven't different countries been at war for many centuries? . .Instead the U.S. becomes a peace-keeping force.

Democracy itself is a western ideal.


dēmo kratia - people rule

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Democracy itself is a western ideal.


dēmo kratia - people rule

Keep in mind, though, that "people" in ancient Greece meant "males of prominent standing". Bottom feeders and women needn't apply.