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Question regarding Justification.

Nj_

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Hello, I have been looking into the Orthodox Church lately and it's very interesting, but also really confusing. I have been listening to people such as Fr. Josiah Trenham (Who comes from the same Reformed Tradition I am a part of), and while I've encountered several good arguments I have also encountered stuff that confuses me a lot. One of those confusing things is Orthodox soteriology. Could anyone point me to any Church statements explaining this? How is one justified in the EO Church? When does Regeneration occur? Is there anything like an Ordo Salutis?
 

ArmyMatt

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How is one justified in the EO Church? When does Regeneration occur?

baptism, but it’s a lifelong process. it’s not a once and done thing.

Is there anything like an Ordo Salutis?

yes-ish. there is a general process, but ultimately it’s up to God. and since we sin, each step happens all the time until we are deified.
 
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Nj_

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baptism, but it’s a lifelong process. it’s not a once and done thing.
I see, what happens with someone who converts before baptism though? Scripture teaches we are dead in our sins, but that God, in His mercy and grace, gives us saving faith, wouldn't this mean that there is some sort of change of heart (Which is what I understand to be regeneration, perhaps the Orthodox have a different definition of regeneration) before the convert even becomes baptized?

yes-ish. there is a general process, but ultimately it’s up to God. and since we sin, each step happens all the time until we are deified.
I see, is there anything like assurance of salvation in the Orthodox Church?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I see, what happens with someone who converts before baptism though? Scripture teaches we are dead in our sins, but that God, in His mercy and grace, gives us saving faith, wouldn't this mean that there is some sort of change of heart (Which is what I understand to be regeneration, perhaps the Orthodox have a different definition of regeneration) before the convert even becomes baptized?

if you feel a change in the heart, you will be led to baptism (that’s the only thing we see in Acts).

I see, is there anything like assurance of salvation in the Orthodox Church?

yes and no. yes in the sense that Christ defeated death and the resurrection is coming. no in the sense that I might live a life wanting sin, which makes the resurrection eternal torment.
 
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Nj_

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if you feel a change in the heart, you will be led to baptism (that’s the only thing we see in Acts).
I agree, but isn't this change of heart regeneration? Or what do the Orthodox mean by regeneration?

yes and no. yes in the sense that Christ defeated death and the resurrection is coming. no in the sense that I might live a life wanting sin, which makes the resurrection eternal torment.
I see.
 
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Nj_

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no, regeneration is a process. this is necessary the precursor to it.
That actually makes sense.

May I also ask what being born again means in Eastern Orthodoxy? Also, I apologize if I'm asking a lot of things and being annoying, or if I sound as if I'm trying to start a debate, I just honestly really want to learn because I am interested in Orthodoxy but I have my questions.
 
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Light of the East

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That actually makes sense.

May I also ask what being born again means in Eastern Orthodoxy? Also, I apologize if I'm asking a lot of things and being annoying, or if I sound as if I'm trying to start a debate, I just honestly really want to learn because I am interested in Orthodoxy but I have my questions.

In Reformed theology, everything is based on a judicial and legal idea of forgiveness. There are several misunderstandings in Reformed soteriology which lead to wrong conclusions. For instance, you speak of being "dead in sins." A well-known Reformed radio host of many years ago used to say "man in his natural state is a stinking, dead corpse." The only problem is that this is not the biblical definition of being dead in sin.

Look at the Parable of the Prodigal. What does his father says towards the end of the parable? "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry." Now was the son actually physically dead - i.e., not breathing or alive? No. He was separated from his father, just as Adam and Eve DIED when they ate the fruit of the tree, yet were still very much alive. They were separated from God. Biblically speaking, death is separation, and is, in fact, separation from He who is life itself.

Back to the mistake of judicial forgiveness. The Roman Catholic church was infested with the thought patterns of the Roman empire. In the Roman empire, the LAW was everything to the Roman citizen. The law gave the citizen certain rights and responsibilities that the pagans did not have. Roman thought was very much involved with law issues, so that when Christianity began to take hold of Rome in earnest, this thinking entered the Church and became a basis for understanding God as Judge. In a law court, you are either found guilty or innocent (forgiven). This is the basis for Protestant law understanding of salvation. In Calvinism, you are dead and cannot respond to God. God, through His unknown decree, gives life to whomsoever He wills. The soul, being enlivened by God, realizes its sin, confesses and repents, and is forgiven. This forgiveness is a once and done thing, just like a judge in a courtroom declaring a party "NOT GUILTY" The declaration is made, the sinner is forgiven for all time, and the soul is ready for heaven, having been pardoned.

This is not how Orthodoxy views salvation at all. The Early Fathers spoke of the Eucharist as "the medicine of immortality." The view of medicine is one of constant improvement, of becoming like Christ, which is the goal of the Christian life - unity with Christ in eternity. It is not a "once and done forever" approach to salvation. It is, rather, a relationship, and like all relationships, it grows and matures over time.

Baptism enters us into a covenant relationship with Christ. We are then called upon to cooperate with the working of the Holy Spirit to effect a true, ontological change in our very being. St. Paul spoke about this when he spoke of believers starving the old man of sin and feeding the new man. There is that constant tension in all believers as we live our lives in the reality of having both the old man and the new man within us.

Born-again by water and the spirit, according to John's Gospel. Baptism enters us into union with Christ (Romans 6:3) and gives remission of sin (Acts 2:38). It is called "the washing of regeneration." (Titus 3:5). This has been the traditional understanding of being "born-again" in the apostolic faith.

I was a PCA Calvinist for 13 years, BTW, so I hope I can help you with your questions. Being fairly new to Orthodoxy, I myself have a lot to learn, but having been on this board for a while, listening to Fr. Matt and others, and reading and listening to Orthodox priests, I do believe I can be of some help in understanding the difference.
 
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Nj_

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In Reformed theology, everything is based on a judicial and legal idea of forgiveness.
Don't passages like Colossians 2:13-14 use legal language though? I don't disagree that the Reformed tradition over-emphasizes it, and I've been reading about Orthodox positions on soteriology and I do agree that it is not very helpful to focus on just one part of what Christ achieved in the cross, but I do see legal language in the New Testament, so I'm unsure as to how to approach that.

Look at the Parable of the Prodigal. What does his father says towards the end of the parable? "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry." Now was the son actually physically dead - i.e., not breathing or alive? No. He was separated from his father, just as Adam and Eve DIED when they ate the fruit of the tree, yet were still very much alive. They were separated from God. Biblically speaking, death is separation, and is, in fact, separation from He who is life itself.
Yes! I was actually reading an article earlier today that treats this issue, and I'd never realized how Reformed apologists and Theologians often use Lazarus as an example of us being spiritually dead (Even though Lazarus was physically dead, and the Bible doesn't even use Lazarus as an example of what it means to be spiritually dead) as opposed to using good examples of it such as the Prodigal son. Not to mention many Reformed people will criticize anyone who says we're sick and Christ is our doctor and completely ignore Christ Himself uses this kind of language in Mark 2:17.

Born-again by water and the spirit, according to John's Gospel. Baptism enters us into union with Christ (Romans 6:3) and gives remission of sin (Acts 2:38). It is called "the washing of regeneration." (Titus 3:5). This has been the traditional understanding of being "born-again" in the apostolic faith.

Doesn't the Bible speak about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit too? Does this also happen in the washing of regeneration, ie. Baptism, or does it precede it?

I was a PCA Calvinist for 13 years, BTW, so I hope I can help you with your questions. Being fairly new to Orthodoxy, I myself have a lot to learn, but having been on this board for a while, listening to Fr. Matt and others, and reading and listening to Orthodox priests, I do believe I can be of some help in understanding the difference.
I appreciate the fact that you are willing to help me out, and I think it's certainly easier to get someone who once believed what I do to understand where some of my concerns are coming from.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That actually makes sense.

May I also ask what being born again means in Eastern Orthodoxy? Also, I apologize if I'm asking a lot of things and being annoying, or if I sound as if I'm trying to start a debate, I just honestly really want to learn because I am interested in Orthodoxy but I have my questions.

baptism.

and you’re fine.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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May I also ask what being born again means in Eastern Orthodoxy? Also, I apologize if I'm asking a lot of things and being annoying, or if I sound as if I'm trying to start a debate, I just honestly really want to learn because I am interested in Orthodoxy but I have my questions.

When Moses took the Hebrews across the Red Sea (the waters of Baptism), they left Egypt (the pagan world; Paganism is the default position of the world, but I digress) and were born again to begin their journey to the Promised Land. The Hebrews weren't automatically transported to the Promised Land once they were Baptized through the Red Sea. They faced many demons and trials on their way. Same with us, when we are born again through Baptism, the Spiritual War is inaugurated within us, but most importantly it's when we're joined to Christ.
 
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Light of the East

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Don't passages like Colossians 2:13-14 use legal language though? I don't disagree that the Reformed tradition over-emphasizes it, and I've been reading about Orthodox positions on soteriology and I do agree that it is not very helpful to focus on just one part of what Christ achieved in the cross, but I do see legal language in the New Testament, so I'm unsure as to how to approach that.

I have found that in approaching the Sacred Scriptures, it is always best to go to the original Greek. Some of the Western translations are ATROCIOUS! Just as one example, the word "aion" which means "age," is translated as "world" in Matthew 24:3, and has led to the rise of the goofy and unbiblical idea of Matthew 24 and 25 speaking about a pre-millennial end of the world, with a tribulation and a "rapture of the church" eschatology.

Your question is of high interest to me, so let's see what Strong's has to say about this passage:
  1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
    1. of public decrees

    2. of the Roman Senate

    3. of rulers
  2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment

  3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living
Blue Letter Bible online is a nice study tool. It gives a multitude of translations, including Young's Literal. It also gives cross-references:

Eph 2:15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,

Col 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

Col 2:20 If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?

So what are these "ordinances" or "the law" that Calvinists are so fond of pointing to?


Heb 9:1 It had, indeed, then (even the first tabernacle) ordinances of service, also a worldly sanctuary,

Heb 9:10 only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances -- till the time of reformation imposed upon them.

It is the ethics of the Old Covenant. Now go back to first century Israel and put yourself in the church then. What was the big -- BIG -- issue for the Church? What was the very first church council called about?

CIRCUMCISION!!! The keeping of the ordinances (the "law") was being demanded by the Judaizers. They taught that unless you whacked off a bit of your flesh, you couldn't really be a believer. The whole point of Galatians was Paul speaking against this idea that any of the Old Covenant ordinances were required of believers in "The Way." Christ took the ordinances of the Old Covenant, which were part of keeping covenant with God and remaining in good stead as an Israelite, and nailed them to His Cross, thus destroying them and the need to keep them. Christ didn't "Keep the Law for us" and we are still under condemnation if we don't keep the law - HE DESTROYED IT!!!!

But Calvinists have forgotten that this is grace and run right back to the law and said that we must keep it. Unbelievers are said to be condemned because they are "law-breakers." It ceases to be grace.
Calvinists go to certain passages which you mention, point to them, and then make up their own "law" and say that unless you keep these demands, you are not really a Calvinist (and by extension, not one of "the elect" nor a believer at all!!)

Are you getting what I am saying?

So . . . what are the "ethics" of the New Covenant? The old "ethics" are passed away, destroyed on the Cross by Christ, and the Old Covenant has ceased. What demand does the New Covenant make on us. I am going to suggest that it is love . . . as indicated when Christ answered the question "What is the greatest of all the laws?"

"Love God with all your heart, mind, and being, and your neighbor as yourself. Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

The Jews missed this entirely and became hung up on the minutiae of keeping the tiniest of demands. We see how this overwhelmed their thinking when instead of rejoicing that a man was healed, they were incensed because the man picked up his cot and carried it on the Sabbath. Keeping rules overruled the most important aspect of our covenant relationship with God - that of love for God and neighbor.

Does this make sense? I hope so.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So . . . what are the "ethics" of the New Covenant? The old "ethics" are passed away, destroyed on the Cross by Christ, and the Old Covenant has ceased. What demand does the New Covenant make on us. I am going to suggest that it is love . . . as indicated when Christ answered the question "What is the greatest of all the laws?"

technically not correct. the Old ethics remain, only fulfilled in Christ and looked at through what He did on the Cross.

"Love God with all your heart, mind, and being, and your neighbor as yourself. Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

and these are also found in the Law.
 
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Nj_

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I have found that in approaching the Sacred Scriptures, it is always best to go to the original Greek. Some of the Western translations are ATROCIOUS! Just as one example, the word "aion" which means "age," is translated as "world" in Matthew 24:3, and has led to the rise of the goofy and unbiblical idea of Matthew 24 and 25 speaking about a pre-millennial end of the world, with a tribulation and a "rapture of the church" eschatology.

Your question is of high interest to me, so let's see what Strong's has to say about this passage:
  1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
    1. of public decrees

    2. of the Roman Senate

    3. of rulers
  2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment

  3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living
Blue Letter Bible online is a nice study tool. It gives a multitude of translations, including Young's Literal. It also gives cross-references:

Eph 2:15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,

Col 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

Col 2:20 If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?

So what are these "ordinances" or "the law" that Calvinists are so fond of pointing to?


Heb 9:1 It had, indeed, then (even the first tabernacle) ordinances of service, also a worldly sanctuary,

Heb 9:10 only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances -- till the time of reformation imposed upon them.

It is the ethics of the Old Covenant. Now go back to first century Israel and put yourself in the church then. What was the big -- BIG -- issue for the Church? What was the very first church council called about?

CIRCUMCISION!!! The keeping of the ordinances (the "law") was being demanded by the Judaizers. They taught that unless you whacked off a bit of your flesh, you couldn't really be a believer. The whole point of Galatians was Paul speaking against this idea that any of the Old Covenant ordinances were required of believers in "The Way." Christ took the ordinances of the Old Covenant, which were part of keeping covenant with God and remaining in good stead as an Israelite, and nailed them to His Cross, thus destroying them and the need to keep them. Christ didn't "Keep the Law for us" and we are still under condemnation if we don't keep the law - HE DESTROYED IT!!!!

But Calvinists have forgotten that this is grace and run right back to the law and said that we must keep it. Unbelievers are said to be condemned because they are "law-breakers." It ceases to be grace.
Calvinists go to certain passages which you mention, point to them, and then make up their own "law" and say that unless you keep these demands, you are not really a Calvinist (and by extension, not one of "the elect" nor a believer at all!!)

Are you getting what I am saying?

So . . . what are the "ethics" of the New Covenant? The old "ethics" are passed away, destroyed on the Cross by Christ, and the Old Covenant has ceased. What demand does the New Covenant make on us. I am going to suggest that it is love . . . as indicated when Christ answered the question "What is the greatest of all the laws?"

"Love God with all your heart, mind, and being, and your neighbor as yourself. Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

The Jews missed this entirely and became hung up on the minutiae of keeping the tiniest of demands. We see how this overwhelmed their thinking when instead of rejoicing that a man was healed, they were incensed because the man picked up his cot and carried it on the Sabbath. Keeping rules overruled the most important aspect of our covenant relationship with God - that of love for God and neighbor.

Does this make sense? I hope so.
It does actually make sense, I think that at this point having read quite a bit about this issue and after reading the verses used to prove Sola Fide in their correct context I can no longer hold to a Reformed soteriology. I do have a question regarding the Orthodox Church though, what do you guys believe happened to those who died before Christ? How were Old Testament believers saved? And what happens to those who die nowadays without ever hearing the Gospel?
 
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Nj_

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and these are also found in the Law.
Do the Orthodox agree with the understanding that the Law is divided in Moral Law (The Ten Commandments, eternally binding) and the Ceremonial and Judicial Law for Israel that were given specifically to the Israelites and we no longer have to follow?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Do the Orthodox agree with the understanding that the Law is divided in Moral Law (The Ten Commandments, eternally binding) and the Ceremonial and Judicial Law for Israel that were given specifically to the Israelites and we no longer have to follow?

yes, that’s what we see in Acts.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I do have a question regarding the Orthodox Church though, what do you guys believe happened to those who died before Christ? How were Old Testament believers saved? And what happens to those who die nowadays without ever hearing the Gospel?

those who died before Christ or who die now not knowing Christ are judged based on what they were given, according to St Paul in Romans.
 
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Nj_

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those who died before Christ or who die now not knowing Christ are judged based on what they were given, according to St Paul in Romans.
I am aware, but he also says that there are attributes of God that are made known to all men, yet men reject God and choose to worship His creation instead of Him so there is none without excuse. Does this mean that they are judged based on what they're given, but fail to follow even this? Just as Israelites failed to follow the Law. Also, I've heard some people say when Christ descended to Hades and preached He actually preached to people such as Plato who had been long dead, is this correct? Did Old Testament believers also go to Hades or did they make it to Heaven directly?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I am aware, but he also says that there are attributes of God that are made known to all men, yet men reject God and choose to worship His creation instead of Him so there is none without excuse. Does this mean that they are judged based on what they're given, but fail to follow even this? Just as Israelites failed to follow the Law. Also, I've heard some people say when Christ descended to Hades and preached He actually preached to people such as Plato who had been long dead, is this correct? Did Old Testament believers also go to Hades or did they make it to Heaven directly?

OT went to hades since everyone went to hades before Christ’s resurrection. yes, He preached to all those who had died according St Peter’s Epistle.

yes, those attributes are made to all men, but God alone knows when and how to make Himself known.
 
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