Question regarding baptism

[oneshot012]

I have a question regarding baptism. I have gotten into this debate here about twice and I was thinking let's put our theology to the test. Some people say that you must be water baptized to be saved others say that that is not the case. I am really addressing those who do believe that water baptism is a necessity for salvation.

Here is our senario:

Let's say you are a missionary going to this remote village in the amazon and two things happen one you preach the gospel message to these people and 12 of the 100 accept it. So now you have these twelve believers and of these 12 there are 6 that are warriors and 6 that are elderly. That night before they are baptized another village hears of the preaching of this person who was raised from the dead and they don't like it so they come and attack this village. Now of these 6 warriors 2 die in defending the village and one of the elderly die in from the stress of all the fighting. My question is now this, because they were not baptized in water are they going to go to heaven?

 

[QuantaCura]

Since they desired Baptism but could not receive it because of forces outside their control, they would qualify under "Baptism by desire."

 

[Jig]

Since they desired Baptism but could not receive it because of forces outside their control, they would qualify under "Baptism by desire."

What if they believed in Jesus and what He came to do, but the preacher forgot to address the topic of water baptism. Thus, they do not know of it. Obviously, you can't desire something you don't understand or know about. Don't tell me there is a baptism of ignorance.

 

[Rebirth In Flames]

The baptism that truly matters for salvation, is the baptism of the soul… the physicality of the water is an expression of you making the choice to be born again. To say that one cannot go to heaven unless he physically gets water thrown on him, is ludicrous as you’d then be saying that salvation is purely works based. It’s by faith alone that we are saved, all acts and physicality of ritual and worship are outward expressions of what’s within.

 

[eoe]

Let us all pray that in situations like this that God shows his incredible mercy and love toward mankind.

Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.

 

[ThreeAM]

Luke 23:42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Looks like its OK with Jesus.

 

[Maximus]

What if they believed in Jesus and what He came to do, but the preacher forgot to address the topic of water baptism. Thus, they do not know of it. Obviously, you can't desire something you don't understand or know about. Don't tell me there is a baptism of ignorance.

You are committing the fundamental error of making an exception the rule.

Those who have faith in the Lord but through no fault of their own die before baptism, either because they were not told about it or because it was unavailable for some reason, will be saved. If they had true faith they would have obeyed the command to be baptized. That qualifies as a "baptism of desire," whether the desire was explicitly present or not. There is also the case of those catechumens who are martyred prior to baptism but who fully intended to be baptized. Theirs is the "baptism of blood."

It is unwise to reason from these rare exceptions that baptism is not necessary for the salvation of those who are able to be baptized, since Christ Himself commanded it.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Baptism is the new birth of regeneration, the "first resurrection."

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This has also been the teaching of the Church from the very first. I will post some of what the early Christians had to say in a follow-up post.

 

[Maximus]

Here is a small sampling of what the early Christians had to say on the subject of baptism.


Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian

"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

The Recognitions of Clement

"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Testimonies Concerning the Jews

"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Carthage VII

"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).

Athanasius

"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).

Basil the Great

"This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).

"The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.
. . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).

"You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).

John Chrysostom

"[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory of Nazianzen

"Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths" (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).

The Apostolic Constitutions

"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Baptism, therefore, washes away indeed all sins--absolutely all sins, whether of deeds or words or thoughts, whether original or added whether such as are committed in ignorance or allowed in knowledge; but it does not take away the weakness which the regenerate man resists when he fights the good fight, but to which he consents when as man he is overtaken in any fault; on account of the former, rejoicing with thanksgiving, but on account of the latter, groaning in the utterance of prayers" (A Treatise Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 3:5).

"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’" [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).

 

[WilliamRoper]

The Catholic Church has always taught that those who desire to be baptized, yet who are for some reason unable to receive the Sacrament, can be regenerated by an implicit "baptism of desire."

This is what the Catechism says:

VI. The Necessity of Baptism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[James1979]

Water baptism is an outward sign of our sins be cleanse by the word of God(Christ). Water baptism is not required by anyone to show that you're a child of God. Only you yourself know that you're a child of God as the Holy Spirit bear withness with our spirit that we are a child of God Romans which is through the word of God. Romans 8:16, 1 Peter 1:23.

1 Peter 3:21 shows that the like figure that we are saved not physical water but by the word of God.

 

[Stinker]

I have a question regarding baptism. I have gotten into this debate here about twice and I was thinking let's put our theology to the test. Some people say that you must be water baptized to be saved others say that that is not the case. I am really addressing those who do believe that water baptism is a necessity for salvation.

Here is our senario:

Let's say you are a missionary going to this remote village in the amazon and two things happen one you preach the gospel message to these people and 12 of the 100 accept it. So now you have these twelve believers and of these 12 there are 6 that are warriors and 6 that are elderly. That night before they are baptized another village hears of the preaching of this person who was raised from the dead and they don't like it so they come and attack this village. Now of these 6 warriors 2 die in defending the village and one of the elderly die in from the stress of all the fighting. My question is now this, because they were not baptized in water are they going to go to heaven?

When I was in my former church, which believed that water baptism is necessary unto the remission of sins, I followed the implication of this teaching to the letter. The implication was that there is no salvation outside of the (body) (church) (kingdom) and the only way in was via water baptism. Therefore, the logical implication for those 3 villagers was that they died outside of Christ because they were not all immediately water baptized when they first came to belief. They waited too long and they paid the eternal price and their blood would have been on your hands.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have a question regarding baptism. I have gotten into this debate here about twice and I was thinking let's put our theology to the test. Some people say that you must be water baptized to be saved others say that that is not the case. I am really addressing those who do believe that water baptism is a necessity for salvation.

Here is our senario:

Let's say you are a missionary going to this remote village in the amazon and two things happen one you preach the gospel message to these people and 12 of the 100 accept it. So now you have these twelve believers and of these 12 there are 6 that are warriors and 6 that are elderly. That night before they are baptized another village hears of the preaching of this person who was raised from the dead and they don't like it so they come and attack this village. Now of these 6 warriors 2 die in defending the village and one of the elderly die in from the stress of all the fighting. My question is now this, because they were not baptized in water are they going to go to heaven?

I'll come back to this one...

Good night.

Forgive me....

 

[Delta38]

To Maximus:

I believe that you have made a mistake with your interpretation of John 3:5. Quite some time ago I came across an "Exegetical Commentary on John 3" available at bible.org and this is some of what was written about verse 5 and 6:

3:5 In reply, Jesus answers (verse 5): “Except one is begotten of water and wind [u{dato" kaiV pneuvmato"], he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.”

The concepts of water and wind are linked to a[nwqen (v.3), because water and wind come from above. Isa 44:3-5 and Ezek 37:9-10 are pertinent examples of water and wind as life-giving symbols of the Spirit of God in his work among men. Both occur in contexts that deal with the future restoration of Israel as a nation prior to the establishment of the messianic Kingdom! It is therefore particularly appropriate that Jesus should introduce them in a conversation about entering the kingdom of God.

Note that pneuvmato" is anarthrous in v. 5. We are not saying that pneuvmato" in the verse should be read as a direct reference to the Holy Spirit, but that both water and wind are figures which represent the regenerating work of the Spirit in the lives of men and women, a truth pointed to by the OT passages mentioned above. These were passages which should have been familiar to Nicodemus as “the teacher of Israel” (cf. 3:10).

3:6 But lest Nicodemus misunderstand again and take the figure literally (!) Jesus adds v. 6 [toV gegennhmevnon ejk th'" sarkoV" savrx ejstin, kaiV toV gegennhmevnon ejk tou' pneuvmato" pneu'mav ejstin] to clarify that what he has been talking about is, again, not physical but spiritual (the figures of water and wind being indicative of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit).

So when we see this, Jesus was not talking about baptism leading to salvation. In fact, baptism isn't even mentioned at all by Jesus in this particular passage. I believe that baptism as mentioned in other parts of the New Testament are references to spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit (although others are physcial baptism by water). Of course, I don't particularly care whether people have baptism or not as it does not matter. What matters more: If I live out my promise to God saying that I am all His and so on without being baptised, or not living out the same promise but being baptised? With or without water, you are making the same promises. I don't believe that God is concerned with people's religiousness so much as the condition of their heart and their relationship with Him.

It is clear that baptism has nothing at all to do with salvation as Jesus, Paul, John, and others, have claimed time and time again - we are saved (justified) by faith alone. Baptism is an outward expression (or reflection) of your willingness to be used by God and be a submissive follower of Him.

From,
Delta 38.

 

[Maximus]

That "water and wind" interpretation is pretty far-fetched given Jesus' commandment to baptize and all the rest of the scriptural passages on baptism.

It also runs counter to what the Church Fathers had to say about the new birth passage in John 3. They universally agreed that John 3:5 refers to baptism.

The "water and wind" idea sounds like an attempt to explain away a verse that is obviously difficult for those who deny both the necessity and efficacy of baptism. It is readily apparent that it is a reading into the Gospel of a preconceived notion.

Where else is "water and wind" used to describe the Holy Spirit?

Nowhere. Water refers to baptism. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

BTW, nowhere does the Bible say we are saved by "faith alone."

In fact, the only place in all the Bible where faith and alone are used together is James 2:24, and that verse says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[KEPLER]

I have a question regarding baptism. I have gotten into this debate here about twice and I was thinking let's put our theology to the test. Some people say that you must be water baptized to be saved others say that that is not the case. I am really addressing those who do believe that water baptism is a necessity for salvation.

Here is our senario:

Let's say you are a missionary going to this remote village in the amazon and two things happen one you preach the gospel message to these people and 12 of the 100 accept it. So now you have these twelve believers and of these 12 there are 6 that are warriors and 6 that are elderly. That night before they are baptized another village hears of the preaching of this person who was raised from the dead and they don't like it so they come and attack this village. Now of these 6 warriors 2 die in defending the village and one of the elderly die in from the stress of all the fighting. My question is now this, because they were not baptized in water are they going to go to heaven?

YES - water baptism is necessary

YES - all the people will go to heaven

Cheers,

Kepler

 

[KEPLER]

You are committing the fundamental error of making an exception the rule.

Those who have faith in the Lord but through no fault of their own die before baptism, either because they were not told about it or because it was unavailable for some reason, will be saved. If they had true faith they would have obeyed the command to be baptized. That qualifies as a "baptism of desire," whether the desire was explicitly present or not. There is also the case of those catechumens who are martyred prior to baptism but who fully intended to be baptized. Theirs is the "baptism of blood."

It is unwise to reason from these rare exceptions that baptism is not necessary for the salvation of those who are able to be baptized, since Christ Himself commanded it.

Baptism is the new birth of regeneration, the "first resurrection."

This has also been the teaching of the Church from the very first. I will post some of what the early Christians had to say in a follow-up post.

Bravo! A Most Excellent and thoroughly Biblical answer! Reps, reps, reps...

Kepler

 

[KEPLER]

1 Peter 3:21 shows that the like figure that we are saved not physical water but by the word of God.

Uh...Peter says EXACTLY the opposite: the Holy Spirit, coveyed by means of the water, saves you -- not by the water (but definitely through it) but by the promise of a clean conscience. IOW, if you have been water baptized, you have assurance that your conscience is clean.

K

 

[eladoni]

That "water and wind" interpretation is pretty far-fetched given Jesus' commandment to baptize and all the rest of the scriptural passages on baptism.

It also runs counter to what the Church Fathers had to say about the new birth passage in John 3. They universally agreed that John 3:5 refers to baptism.

The "water and wind" idea sounds like an attempt to explain away a verse that is obviously difficult for those who deny both the necessity and efficacy of baptism. It is readily apparent that it is a reading into the Gospel of a preconceived notion.

Where else is "water and wind" used to describe the Holy Spirit?

Nowhere. Water refers to baptism. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

BTW, nowhere does the Bible say we are saved by "faith alone."

In fact, the only place in all the Bible where faith and alone are used together is James 2:24, and that verse says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

I would disagree with that last paragraph you wrote. Paul says in ephesians 2:8 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Therefore it is not by work, but Grace, through faith, that we are saved.

As far as the works, our works do not save us, our works are the fruit of the spirit, which result, and spring from our faith. If we have faith with out works, it is not faith at all, but if you have works without faith, they are no longer good works, infact, it is sin. paul says in romans 14 23b: everything that does not come from faith is sin. romans 11:1-6 is also a good passage to read.

Now, to address the baptism issue.

It is only unbelief that condemns.

how do we know this? mark 16:16 whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Then, who shall be saved?

Acts 16: 31-34 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.

This passage states that if you believe in Jesus, you are saved.

BUT let us look at what his did in verse 33. He was baptized. So, as a result of the faith That he had, he wanted to be baptized, and that is how it should be.

If a person does not want to be baptized, then their faith is dead, as james points out. Can such a dead faith save that person? the bible says no. James 2:14 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Therefore, all who truely have faith will want to be baptized, but not being baptized does not condemn you, it is unbelief (dead faith) that condemns.

 

[Jig]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

• The thief on the cross was not baptized, yet was saved. (Luke 23:43)
• The Gentiles in Caesarea were baptized AFTER they were saved. (Acts 10:44-48)
• Jesus Himself did not baptize (John 4), a strange omission if baptism were essential for salvation.
• Paul thanked God that he baptized very few of the Corinthians (1 Cor. 1:14-16), an impossible thanksgiving if baptism was necessary for salvation.
• Baptism is connected with death and burial in the NT, not with spiritual birth.

Now lets focus on context.

Concerning the above verses.

• Concerning John 3:5: If water can mean the Holy Spirit in Chapter 7 way not in Chapter 3?
• Concerning Acts 22:16: It's not the baptism in this verse that is washing away sins, it is the calling on the name of the Lord. We see this proved in Acts 2:21 and Rom. 10:13.
• Concerning 1 Peter 3:21: Peter was right, there is a baptism that now saves it happened on Calvery 2000 years ago. This is why Jesus said "I have a baptism to be baptized with..." (Luke 12:50). The last few words in that verse prove it is Jesus, not water, it is refering too.
• Concerning Mark 16:16: Baptism is not a condition of salvation, but is an outward proclamation that the person has been saved.

 

[Delta38]

Maximus:

That "water and wind" interpretation is pretty far-fetched given Jesus' commandment to baptize and all the rest of the scriptural passages on baptism.

There is a difference in being born of "above" and being baptised with water.

It also runs counter to what the Church Fathers had to say about the new birth passage in John 3. They universally agreed that John 3:5 refers to baptism.

Well then they are universally incorrect and misunderstood just like the "teacher of Israel" did.

The "water and wind" idea sounds like an attempt to explain away a verse that is obviously difficult for those who deny both the necessity and efficacy of baptism. It is readily apparent that it is a reading into the Gospel of a preconceived notion.

Where else is "water and wind" used to describe the Holy Spirit?

Go back and read my post properly. For one, I never said that the water and wind are a direct reference to the Holy Spirit. The article said:

"We are not saying that pneuvmato" in the verse should be read as a direct reference to the Holy Spirit, but that both water and wind are figures which represent the regenerating work of the Spirit in the lives of men and women, a truth pointed to by the OT passages [Isa. 44:3-5, Ezek. 37:9-10] mentioned above. These were passages which should have been familiar to Nicodemus as “the teacher of Israel” (cf. 3:10).

Please read my posts properly before you respond. I have a zero tolerance attitude for people who post tripe out of misreading my posts.

BTW, nowhere does the Bible say we are saved by "faith alone."

eladoni has already addressed this, but consider the following verses:

Romans 6:23,
For sin pays its wage - death; but God's free gift [i.e. can't be earned through works, baptism, religiousness, etc, etc] is eternal life in union with Christ Jesus, our Lord.

John 3:16,
For God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not die but have eternal life.

John 3:18,
Whoever believes in the Son is no judged; but whoever does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in God's only Son.

1 John 5:13,
I am writing this to you so that you may know that you have eternal life - you that believe in the Son of God.

Among others. If baptism is SOOOO important, then why doesn't John (in these cases) write:
"For God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes, is baptised, does good works and is religious, mya not die but have eternal life."?

The very notion that people can somehow add to their salvation or earn it destroys the very reason why Jesus came to die on the cross.

In fact, the only place in all the Bible where faith and alone are used together is James 2:24, and that verse says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

You've taken the entire passage out of context. James is asked:

But someone will say, "One person has faith, another has actions." (James 2:18).

His response is nothing short of amazing that set's the right meaning of this passage:

My answer is, "Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions."

What James is saying is that it is impossible, literally impossible, to have true faith and not have your actions show/prove/justify it. In fact, James is so confident in his conviction that he challenges people to prove him wrong and show how one can have true faith in Christ without having your actions reflect this. You see, it is made clear throughout the Scriptures that our actions are a reflection of our faith and its sincerity. You cannot have true faith and have your actions not be a reflection of the joy in your heart. Added onto this, the Holy Spirit comes in at conversion and starts the process of discipleship - which is going to happen no matter what in a real true follower of Christ.

The example of Abraham is used time and time again Scripture as an example of a man of great faith. What if, when he was called by God to leave his home and everything that he loved/owned, etc, and told to follow God Abraham said that he believed God's promise yet stayed at home? What does that show us of his true belief in God's promise and the sincerity of it? That he didn't really believe God with any sincerity. But of course, Abraham left his home and followed God, through which his actions showed that he truly believed God. You see, his actions proved/showed/justified his belief.

James isn't saying that actions save, rather that if you're a true believer of Christ then your actions will reflect the level and nature (sincerity) of your faith. Jesus also talked about this point.

I hope that this clears it up for you...

From,
Delta38.