Question re: living together before marriage

[Caedmon]

Think of it this way - If there is a non-christian neighbor to the couple living together and he has been on the fence and seriously coming to God, and then he sees a couple of Christians living in what appears to be a sinful way. Then that neighbors thinks to themselves "I thought they were Christians and supposed not to do things like that! If being a Christian means you can just keep acting however you want then what's the point?" and hardens his heart against God.

Wouldn't that dismay you to know that you and your apparent actions were the thing that drove someone away from God? if you some day stood before God in Heaven while that neighbor was enduring an eternity of torment in Hell what would you say to Him?

How about this:

A non-Christian neighbor who was brought up in a fundamentalist Christian environment is seriously considering reconciling, but he sees me in my backyard drinking beer with friends and thinks, "Christians aren't supposed to do that! If being a Christian means you can just keep acting however you want, then what's the point?" and hardens his heart against God.

Am I not allowed to drink beer because of potential "scandal"?

 

[NPH]

How about this:

A non-Christian neighbor who was brought up in a fundamentalist Christian environment is seriously considering reconciling, but he sees me in my backyard drinking beer with friends and thinks, "Christians aren't supposed to do that! If being a Christian means you can just keep acting however you want, then what's the point?" and hardens his heart against God.

Am I not allowed to drink beer because of potential "scandal"?

Boo on you for trying to spoil my great analogy But, since you mention that the person was brought up in a fundamentalist church (let's say Baptist for sake of argument, they are very strict regarding alcohol usually) his more likely thought would be "There go the Catholics boozing it up again!"

More serious though, drinking beer would be more of a difference between religions. Sexual intimacy outside of marriage is generally frowned on by all Christian religions, whereas alcohol consumption is more of a faith-specific belief. Because as a Catholic you do not recognize the consumption of alcohol (in moderation hopefully) as inherently sinful, then there can be no sin of scandal since the Church acknowledges that you can indeed drink alcohol. It fairly similar to someone turning from religion because they think that Catholics are cannibals. Even so, it is still better not to drink alcohol anyway and if you feel that drinking it in public might turn someone away from God then you probably shouldn't. It would be up to you but it wouldn't be considered scandalous (well, except to some fundamentalists of course).

back to lightheartedness, maybe it'd be a good way to witness to that neighbor. "Come on over, have a beer and let's talk about God and Jesus. BTW, did you know He doesn't mind if we have a beer?"

 

[Caedmon]

Boo on you for trying to spoil my great analogy But, since you mention that the person was brought up in a fundamentalist church (let's say Baptist for sake of argument, they are very strict regarding alcohol usually) his more likely thought would be "There go the Catholics boozing it up again!"

More serious though, drinking beer would be more of a difference between religions. Sexual intimacy outside of marriage is generally frowned on by all Christian religions, whereas alcohol consumption is more of a faith-specific belief. Because as a Catholic you do not recognize the consumption of alcohol (in moderation hopefully) as inherently sinful, then there can be no sin of scandal since the Church acknowledges that you can indeed drink alcohol. It fairly similar to someone turning from religion because they think that Catholics are cannibals. Even so, it is still better not to drink alcohol anyway and if you feel that drinking it in public might turn someone away from God then you probably shouldn't. It would be up to you but it wouldn't be considered scandalous (well, except to some fundamentalists of course).

back to lightheartedness, maybe it'd be a good way to witness to that neighbor. "Come on over, have a beer and let's talk about God and Jesus. BTW, did you know He doesn't mind if we have a beer?"

Mmmmm... beeeeer...

Well I understand your statements, and I agree that it's not as big a potential for scandal, since cohabitation is more widely viewed by Christians as a whole as sinful. I guess this was more of an issue while I was still a baptist. There was a whole lot of debate over whether drinking alcohol was wrong because other baptists would see you doing it, but what the issue really boiled down to was, "Is drinking alcohol a sin?" IMO, this is somewhat similar to the cohabitation-without-sex issue, although those tolerant of such a thing would amount to a much smaller group. I hope this makes sense. It's past midnight.

 

[Miss Shelby]

If anyone can find me a priest who would okay a couple living together even if they promised to refrain from sex, and the priest still agreed to marry them, then I might consider changing my opinion.

Until then I say it is a no no to live together, especially when one has the aforethought to consider whether it is permissable or not, and should be able to come to the conclusion that it's wrong. For heaven's sake the OP is actually saying that theoretically the couple could just not tell anyone they are living together, or not tell anyone whether they are married or not... in such a way to insinuate that the potential observers would be the one's sinning in the matter! ay yi yi!

This is definitely a question for a priest.

Michelle

 

[Caedmon]

If anyone can find me a priest who would okay a couple living together even if they promised to refrain from sex, and the priest still agreed to marry them, then I might consider changing my opinion.

Until then I say it is a no no to live together, especially when one has the aforethought to consider whether it is permissable or not, and should be able to come to the conclusion that it's wrong. For heaven's sake the OP is actually saying that theoretically the couple could just not tell anyone they are living together, or not tell anyone whether they are married or not... in such a way to insinuate that the potential observers would be the one's sinning in the matter! ay yi yi!

This is definitely a question for a priest.

Michelle

I'm not trying to live with a woman, mommy, don't worry.

My argumentative side... aside ( )... I don't want to live with a woman before I marry her. I would always help us find a way to take care of our relationship that didn't involve cohabitation, if just to eliminate the near occasion of sexual sin for us. Oh man, I would love her so much, if only I knew her... and part of that love would be helping us to avoid sin, because sin keeps us away from God, and God is how we would stay together and love each other so much in the first place. I would want our relationship centered around our Faith. I would talk to a priest with my girlfriend and see if he could help us find a way to solve any problems that we might have, whether it was our ability to see each other on a regular basis, or financial things, or whatever. And of course, if two dedicated Catholic people love each other enough, they will always find a way. *love moment* [/violins]

 

[Miss Shelby]

I'm not trying to live with a woman, mommy, don't worry.

My argumentative side... aside ( )... I don't want to live with a woman before I marry her. I would always help us find a way to take care of our relationship that didn't involve cohabitation, if just to eliminate the near occasion of sexual sin for us. Oh man, I would love her so much, if only I knew her... and part of that love would be helping us to avoid sin, because sin keeps us away from God, and God is how we would stay together and love each other so much in the first place. I would want our relationship centered around our Faith. I would talk to a priest with my girlfriend and see if he could help us find a way to solve any problems that we might have, whether it was our ability to see each other on a regular basis, or financial things, or whatever. And of course, if two dedicated Catholic people love each other enough, they will always find a way. *love moment* [/violins]

I wasn't directing that at you Caedmon, just spouting off in my ususal opinionated, bombastic form.

I got your note by the way, thanks. It inspired me to go out and buy postcards.

Michelle

 

[Caedmon]

I wasn't directing that at you Caedmon, just spouting off in my ususal opinionated, bombastic form.

I got your note by the way, thanks. It inspired me to go out and buy postcards.

Michelle

It's OK. I'm glad you got it. I wanted to help you feel a little bit better, and keep myself sane, since I won't be able to talk to you here again in the near future.

 

[zhilan]

on a seperate note, one should remember that the majority of people who cohabitate premaritally end up divorces while couples who live seperately til marriage have the greatest success rate...

Does anyone have any page with stastics on this. I hear this a lot but have not found any stastical information on it. Thanks!

 

[Llauralin]

Does anyone have any page with stastics on this. I hear this a lot but have not found any stastical information on it. Thanks!

You may be able to find it in the July (I think, could be June) issue of Psychology Today; they had an article involving this very issue as the cover story.

 

[zhilan]

You may be able to find it in the July (I think, could be June) issue of Psychology Today; they had an article involving this very issue as the cover story.

Is that online?

 

[Llauralin]

Is that online?

Try these:
http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030807-000001.html
http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20050614-000001.html
http://www.civitas.org.uk/hwu/cohabitation.php
They don't have a lot of the specific study statistics, but do cite them so that you could probably look those studies up, and are otherwise quite interesting, though they have pretty much no moral position.

 

[Acceptance]

If anyone can find me a priest who would okay a couple living together even if they promised to refrain from sex, and the priest still agreed to marry them, then I might consider changing my opinion.

Hi guys, sorry I've been away for a while, you've all probably grown sick of this thread by now But I wanted to comment on this, that a priest will not marry a couple living together and if he does, that you'd have to lie to him to get him to do it. All the priests I've talked to about this (3) and of the priest I heard on the Catholic radio station (a representative from Catholic Answers), a priest should not with hold the sacrament of marriage from two people who want it just because they have lived together. By getting married, the couple is seeking to progress their relationship to one that is blessed by God (vs. whatever sin they would currently be in by living together).

 

[zhilan]

Hi guys, sorry I've been away for a while, you've all probably grown sick of this thread by now But I wanted to comment on this, that a priest will not marry a couple living together and if he does, that you'd have to lie to him to get him to do it. All the priests I've talked to about this (3) and of the priest I heard on the Catholic radio station (a representative from Catholic Answers), a priest should not with hold the sacrament of marriage from two people who want it just because they have lived together. By getting married, the couple is seeking to progress their relationship to one that is blessed by God (vs. whatever sin they would currently be in by living together).

Ya, actually this is something I was wondering about. What if a couple has been living together, but wants to get married and make things right with God. Will the priest deny them the chance to ammend their sin?

 

[zhilan]

bump