I absolutely agree that God is love, but what is love with force? And if He was just going to force us to love Him why let Adam fall?
I'm not sure who you're responding to, but I believe I can answer this one.
Often arminians mistake Calvinism as fatalism. This pits human will
against Divine will much as the sinful human is always opposed to God.
That misrepresents the Calvinistic model. This model is one of
re-creation in the model of Christ.
You don't resist creation, because you're dead before you're created. It's not "love with force". It's "love with transforming power."
So God only loves some of us?
God only graces some of us. If by giving you something you don't deserve, that's your only concept of love, then I guess that'd be "only loves some of us."
Why not "recreate" all of us? Why aren't we all going to heaven then? If God is love why not love all and let all go to heaven?
But that's an issue with
every non-universalistic view -- that is, every Scriptural view. Why are you complaining to us? Why not go to Soteriology forum and complain there?
God can save every one of us,
and God doesn't. Your complaint isn't with me. It's with God.
It's God Who really has this option. You're proposing to second-guess God on what God should do with evil people.
But if you begin with evil people, it's no wonder God doesn't save all. In fact the greater wonder is that God saves any.
How is it compassionate to create a three year old and burn him alive? Which is worse?
Hang on. When you ask "which is worse?" normally you propose something to compare it with. It's as if you think creating someone with free will is an actual option for an omnipotent God. You know -- creating a will so powerful God cannot turn it.
No one has said God can't change any will. So your question again explodes in the face of free will as well. You're left with no options. The argument opposes all sides.
From a moral standpoint it's far worse to create an evil person and leave him around for an eternity. And it's clear evil three-year-olds are created.
I just don't think it is love if you create something to love you.
Then you've generated a view where the love of God can't possibly be an aspect of religion.
And I do think that God has given us enough information to find our way out of the jungle. He sent prophets, Jesus, we have the Bible. If God informed us in every way possible we would probably still be living in the garden of Eden or something like that where we saw and spoke to God daily. But then we would all love Him and it wouldn't be us having to have faith it would be just general knowledge. This is obviously not the reason He created us...or Adam would never have eaten from the Tree.
Yes, God gave us enough information. But even after He gave us enough information to find Him, God observed it Himself -- "No one seeks God." (Rom 3:9-19) So God gave us enough, and no one looked for Him. The result -- we're all guilty. We're all condemned. We're all nailing Jesus to the Cross. When we don't get to that, we don't realize the depth of our sinfulness. It's pervasive. It's systemic.
It is not cruel to create people He knew would choose against Him because it was their choice not Gods.
It's every bit as cruel. Why create people you know you only intend to torment forever?
He is not making them for the sole purpose of suffering.
Well, yes He would be. What other purpose does God have once God knows they would choose against Him?
Plus the way I see it is that in a way we were already created because God had to see what was coming. (I already warned you that I am a bad explainer!) It's like God didn't come up with the entire history of the world and think "shoot, I don't want those people to go to hell" and then recreate and recreate and recreate. I think that before He created us He knew what would happen but that did not make Him want to stop and do it differently. That is why it is our choice.
God had the option of not creating. He still created. Your argument against any deterministic view assails this view exactly the same.
God could make a world which in your view is "better" than what we have.
But that's essentially the problem. You aren't God. Your view of "better" doesn't take God's nature fully into account. It demotes God to only looking a little past His wants. The "downsides" to creating this way "didn't make Him want to stop and do it differently." I want you to think about that clearly. That's neglect on God's part. Because if this had happened, God could've done better, yet didn't.
That's not the God I worship. God is good and God is great. He wouldn't have left out the possibility of making a better world. He would've only brought up temporary evil if its creation were ultimately good. So I'm a Calvinist.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is the one that came to my mind too. That is actually how I came across this site. I could not remember the names in the story let alone the verse, so I was looking it up online and came across this site. I totally believe that hell is a place and that if you do not believe in Jesus you will go there and it will be torture to know that you are in hell and not with God and that will probably be the worst feeling but I also believe that there will be other horrible things that will happen to you.
And it sounds nice that you would try to defend this rationale of hell, but that is not what they are saying. Some people have this idea that when the Bible talks about women submitting to men it is referring to the mind submitting to the spirit. I do not know much about this because I am not into it, but there are referneces in the Bible that refer to the spirit as masculine and the mind or soul as feminine. And they say that the Spirit always wants to do God's will but the mind often fights it, so what we need to do is have the mind submit to the Spirit and to God's will. So they are saying that Satan lives in our minds and that is why they are not in order with our spirit. I believe that Satan can lead us to have thought that we should not but I think he lives in hell and that there is an actual place that is hell.
The problem is that, not Satan, but we ourselves live in our thoughts and wills. And we are evil. We like to think that we're not. But we are.
