question on total deprravity.

[Reformationist]

Well, about 6 months after buying the business it ws not doing great and I was a little disappointed, but then I thought, "Well, God does know what is best and He has always taken care of me." And now the business is doing great and I opened a second location! (Yay! Praise God!)

First, let me congratulate you on your success and encourage you to always give thanks to God for all of the ways in which He blesses you, regardless of whether the events that transpire are enjoyable. I don't mean to imply that you are like this but far too often Christians are all about praising God for the things they enjoy and thinking that if things become unpleasant that it cannot be what God wants for us. It's as if they think that God only wants us to experience the joys of life. The Book of Job reveals a remarkably different picture of God. There is great sanctifying value in hardship. Think of how you deal with others for example. So many times the trials in our life are the very means that God sovereignly ordains to equip us for the bigger plan He has for us. Aside from the suffering of Christ Himself, the most profound example of this very truth is the case of the OT saint Joseph. Not only was the suffering in his life used by God to prepare him for his role of authority, it was ordained by God from the start as the means by which God had determined to bring about His plan.

All I'm saying is that, whether your business thrives or goes under, your goal should always be, first and foremost, to glorify God in obedience. The success of your business, as pleasurable as that may be from our perspective, may be more harmful than it going under and it should never be viewed as the litmus test in determining whether God's will is going to be done. That was the same error that Job's friends and wife made. Only God knows what we most need and that is why we trust in Him that He will complete the good work He starts in us and give us exactly what we need to be conformed to the image of Christ, for that is true love.

So I 1)am submitting to God's Will by the simple act of praying to Him 2)Acknowledge His Holiness 3)Admit that I am a sinner and ask Him to make me more like Jesus through praising Him 4)Thank Him and I do ask for what I want...but as long as it is what He wants for me.

Sounds good.

I am definately not saying that I agree 100% with all the things my husband comes up with...he found God not too long ago and I think there are some things he says that I am like "WHAT?!?"

No wife agrees with their husband 100% of the time. Truth is, "WHAT?!" is as common a response from wives, whether it is verbal or not, as any other. Men have a tendency to think their insight is beyond reproach. In this case though, I'd say your husband was right, at least with respect to the course of history already being determined, even if it has not yet come to pass.

What do you mean here?

"If God based His elective choice on His knowledge of what you or I would do, Scripture which debunks that very theory would be meaningless, and a lie, and it would give those whom God chooses a foundation for boasting. After all, their eternal reward is ultimately granted because they were wise enough to make the right choice."

I don't quite get what you mean by God's elective choice? Are you saying that He chooses who is going to Heaven?

Of course He chooses:

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Romans 9:10,11
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

I definately don't think that anyone should boast about being saved. Just curious, could you maybe point out some of that scripture? I am not trying to be one of those people who are like "Ooh I am so right and you are so wrong and you cannot back up your claims" because I am not saying that anyone is right or wrong. I just don't quite get your view on the idea and would like to hear what you have to say.

The above verses are just a couple of many that the Scriptures give us. As you can see from the passage in Ephesians, He chose His elect before the foundations of the world. Both it and the passage from Romans reveal that His choice is based on the purpose of His will, not on whether we do good or evil. Again, in Romans 9:16, Paul reveals that God's choice does not depend "on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." If God's choice is based upon our choice for Him, He is not showing mercy. He is rewarding proper choice which gives reason to boast. Salvation may still be mercy in that case but God's elective purpose would be based on our actions, a theory which contradicts other explicit Scripture. Your faith icon marks you as a Lutheran though you may not be familiar with your denomination's views. Lutherans also believe in and endorse the sovereign election of God.

So do you think that we choose to believe, or before the beginning of time God decided who was going to believe, or that before the beginning of time God knew who would choose to believe and who wouldn't but that it was our free will that let us decide if we believe in God?

We exercise our will, which is our mind choosing. However, the reason we believe is because God changes our hearts such that before we were slaves to our fallen nature and morally incapable of submitting to God by faith, we are now born anew and willingly acknowledge God as our Lord. Our exercise of faith is the manifestation of the change He has already wrought in us through regeneration from death in sin to life in Christ. In answer, we choose to believe but we do so because He has given us faith.

God Bless you too!

Thanks!

 

[jenlovesgod]

I would almost take that verse to mean that He chose us (humans) to be holy and blameless before Him, because any person in the whole world could believe in Him and therefore be holy and blameless.

But doesn't seem terrible that God created certain people specifically to go to hell? Why did he create people to begin with? I thought (again I am definately no expert) He created us to have free will to choose Him, but if He has already decided who gets to go to heaven what's the point? I guess I look at it as He lets us decide what we will choose, but He knew what we would choose before he created us.

So if He already picked the people He would let into heaven it seems pointless to try to help others find God orJesus because He may have already sentenced them to hell.

I pretty much agree with my husband about the praying and I usually model my prayers around the Lord's Prayer, but here is an idea his pastor and a group of some other people have been tossing around that doesn't really make sense to me...
It all started when my husband brought the fact that too many people "give" Satan more power than he deserves to his pastor. He goes to a really small church (no real denomination though it started as a 4-square church) and people are always like "I rebuke Satan! He is making my cousin sick and I am calling on Jesus to put an end to this." (Which always makes me...a lutheran...feel weird when people in his church get this way), but it turned into an idea that Satan exists in our mind...and that "the bottomless pit" is our mind. And that if you go to hell it is not like an actual place where you are burning and suffering but the actual "suffering" is just the fact that you cannot be in heaven.

Again, I am probably not doing a great job explaining their idea, but this is really the main reason I wanted to join this site because I do not know all the Bible verses and I figured that someone here might be able to give me a good idea or a way to show him something different. Sometimes I really question his "pastor" who is a wonderful man but never even went to Seminary, he just went through a series of in-depth classes at a church and is now branching off from their views and following a "Kingdom" message and I feel like he doesn't know what he is talking about most of the time, and it just infuriates me that he takes what this guy says as goespel all of the time.

Anyway, gotta go, my daughter is in dance tonight.

Thanks for all the responses! I really enjoy reading what everyone says here!

 

[Reformationist]

I would almost take that verse to mean that He chose us (humans) to be holy and blameless before Him, because any person in the whole world could believe in Him and therefore be holy and blameless.

The entire book continues on in this fashion but I draw your attention to the context:

Eph 1:1-12
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,


To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

I ask you, who are the faithful in Christ Jesus? The letter, and the context of Paul's claim in verse 4 is about believers.

But doesn't seem terrible that God created certain people specifically to go to hell?

Why?

Why did he create people to begin with?

That He would be glorified.

I thought (again I am definately no expert) He created us to have free will to choose Him, but if He has already decided who gets to go to heaven what's the point?

Creation was not about us and it certainly wasn't about our free will.

I guess I look at it as He lets us decide what we will choose, but He knew what we would choose before he created us.

So you see God as more an observer of history than the One who establishes the course history takes?

So if He already picked the people He would let into heaven it seems pointless to try to help others find God orJesus because He may have already sentenced them to hell.

It's only pointless if you see your obedience in spreading the Gospel as something that is worthwhile if it is effective by the power of your, and their, free will. It is exactly because God ensures that those He has set apart to the glory of His Son will respond positively to the message of the Gospel and submit to Him as Lord and Savior that your efforts are never in vain.

The question you need to answer is, why is spreading the Gospel only worthwhile if man is sovereign over his own destiny?

Make no mistake, there isn't a single person that will ever exist that desires to be a child of God that will not be a child of God. You see, apart from the regenerative work of God, no one seeks to be His. Rejection and rebellion is our natural response to the things of God.

It all started when my husband brought the fact that too many people "give" Satan more power than he deserves to his pastor. He goes to a really small church (no real denomination though it started as a 4-square church) and people are always like "I rebuke Satan! He is making my cousin sick and I am calling on Jesus to put an end to this." (Which always makes me...a lutheran...feel weird when people in his church get this way), but it turned into an idea that Satan exists in our mind...and that "the bottomless pit" is our mind. And that if you go to hell it is not like an actual place where you are burning and suffering but the actual "suffering" is just the fact that you cannot be in heaven.

Again, I am probably not doing a great job explaining their idea, but this is really the main reason I wanted to join this site because I do not know all the Bible verses and I figured that someone here might be able to give me a good idea or a way to show him something different. Sometimes I really question his "pastor" who is a wonderful man but never even went to Seminary, he just went through a series of in-depth classes at a church and is now branching off from their views and following a "Kingdom" message and I feel like he doesn't know what he is talking about most of the time, and it just infuriates me that he takes what this guy says as goespel all of the time.

Sounds like this Pastor isn't someone you or your husband should be listening to with regard to the truth of the Gospel. Satan is real and he is powerful. As believers we are not to fear Him (2 Tim 1:7) but neither are we to deny the destruction he wreaks upon even the faithful. My suggestion, get away from the teaching your husband is attending and find a good, bible based church. Maybe even a Lutheran church, though I am partial to the PCA or OPC myself.

Anyway, gotta go, my daughter is in dance tonight.

Thanks for all the responses! I really enjoy reading what everyone says here!

Good luck and feel free to come back for any clarification you need. Some of my brethren here in this forum are wonderfully edifying and learned in the Scriptures.

God bless

 

[jax5434]

What if you sin and die right away afterwards...before you have a chance to repent, are you going to hell?

NO, Scripture teaches eterenal security of the believer. If Mr. Robinson never repents and dies does he go to heaven because God likes him anyway?

Jax

 

[jax5434]

[

quote=bradfordl;43647589]Gee, that Mr Smith is a smart guy! And a good guy, too, because we'd all agree that to do this is both smart and good, right?
Gee, that Mr Robinson sure is a dumb guy! And bad, too, because we'd all agree that to reject Christ is both dumb and bad, right?

NO not dumb. Prideful, arrogant and stubborn perhaps. But not dumb

From jax's position, it appears that the difference is that Mr Smith is simply an independently smarter and better son. That kinda guy surely deserves the great reward of heaven, right?

If you have read anything i said here you already know that I do not believe that anyone " deserves the great reward of heaven "

So by jax's premise, Paul must not be saved, because he rejected the idea that before God intervened in his heart there was anything smart or good about him.

Maybe we're getting somewhere now. Are you saying that God chose his elect because they were extra smart or good?

And that's what this debate all boils down to, isn't it? Jax wants to hold on to the notion that there is just something better about Mr Smith than Mr Robinson.

Could you point out to anything That i have said anywhrere in these posts that would lead you to say that?
Incidentally does God see something different in them when he elects them as you say. Or is He just "coin flipping"

If God intervenes to the same extent for both men, then the deciding factor must be something independently and intrinsically different in themselves.

The different exercise of their God given will

But if God intervenes in Mr Smith's heart only, then the deciding factor lies in God's choice, or election, of one over the other not founded on anything He sees to be different in either man. Which of these comports with scripture?

[/quote]

It must comport with all of scripture not a few select verses. Everything God said, the prophets said, jesus said and the apostles said.Scripture does not conflict. One should always interpret less clear passages in light of the more clear. Once again, in many places God tells his people they do have the capacity and the obligation to choose. He speaks clearly and unequivocaly. These are the verses by which we should interpret all of pauls writings.

Jax

 

[jenlovesgod]

I'll probably regret not readin the rest of your post or anyone elses, but where's the glory in God purposely making certain people glorify Him? You can't make someone love you and I think God knows this. It doesn't make any sense that God would have let Adam fall then. If He made us JUST to glorify Him why not leave everyone in the garden? God knew Adam and Eve would fall. I think He wants us to choose Him but He will not force someone to. By that I mean I think it IS our choice God just knew what we would choose.

And how can you not think it is sad that certain people would be destined to go to hell? Not to sound terrible but what if one of your children were one of the people God chose at the beginning of time to suffer in hell? Isn't it terrible to think that there is nothing you can do about it?

So why did God make angels? And after that He made people? I just don't get why He would have given Adam a choice to eat or not to eat. And it's not that I see God as an observer, He just wants those who actually did choose Him to be rewarded with eternal life in Heaven.

 

[jax5434]

Therefore, in your supposition Mr. Smith has room to boast, which is diametrically apposed to the word of God.

I suppose no such thing anymore than the calvinist would boast of being so special that God exempted him from the penalty of sin

I'll believe what the word of God teaches. If Mr. Smith is saved, it is all of God, from start to finish.

Absolutely

All Glory to God!

Amen!

And with that, there is really nothing else for me to say.
The truth remains the truth.

Everywhere, at all times and all places.

Jax

 

[jenlovesgod]

By the way, I am having a really good time reading all you are writing. I appreciate the time you are taking and you seem like a very interesting person...also you have a beautiful family!

So what about the people who don't "desire to be a child of God" because they have never heard of Him. I suppose you would say that these people are not important because they are just bodies that God decided would go to hell.

I actually love the church I go to, but sometimes go to his church because we are friends with the pastor and his wife and children. I prefer my church's 8:30 traditional service, and his starts at 10:30.

"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses," but in Him EVERYONE has redemption and forgiveness. Each and every single person in the entire world has the opportunity to be saved (or should) and doesn't God love everyone and didn't Jesus die for the sins of the world?

What is a PCA or OPC church?

 

[jenlovesgod]

I'm right there with you Jax. I think that sometimes people get this fear about having to be perfect in order to gen into heaven but God already knows we are not perfect that's why He gave us Jesus.

That makes me think, Reformationist, if creation isn't about us and is pretty much just about glorifying God why would He send Jesus to die? We didn't need Him in order to glorify God. We could have just gone on the way we were, which probably glorified Him more with all those sacrifices and stuff that people were supposed to do (which I guess God was quite pleased by the smells of burning animals).

Anyway, I totally think that once you believe in God and Jesus as you savior there pretty much isn't anything you can do to go to Hell. It took me a long time to be able to say that but that is what I believe. But I also believe that if you believe in that way you won't want to commit sin...you see the problem I used to have with that idea is that it seemed like a free pass to sin to me, but that's not how I see it now. I do stuff that I know isn't great...I have road rage and blurt out words unbefitting of a lady from time to time, but I feel like my relationship with God has strengthened so much that I just don't have the desire to do that anymore.

I've got another question...Jax, do think once you're saved you're always saved? My husband used to agree with me that the answer is no, but now he has changed his mind. Let me clarify...he thinks that once you admit that Jesus is your savior there is nothing you can do to ever go to hell. I believe the exact same thing but I believe that if you ever got to a point in your life that you said "I was wrong, there is no God or Jesus," then you will go to hell. I think that if you were a child and believed in God and as you age maybe you stop going to church and don't seem to have a relationship with God you would still go to heaven. I just think once you believe the only thing you could do to not make it to heaven is "un"believe.

 

[jenlovesgod]

So Jax, do you think that we choose to believe in God? That's what it sounds like to me. I just cannot imagine a God who would pick certain people to make it to heaven and certain people to be condemned to hell.

It certainly doesn't take a smart person to believe in God...that's not how you're going to get saved.

 

[jax5434]

I'll probably regret not readin the rest of your post or anyone elses, but where's the glory in God purposely making certain people glorify Him? You can't make someone love you and I think God knows this. It doesn't make any sense that God would have let Adam fall then. If He made us JUST to glorify Him why not leave everyone in the garden? God knew Adam and Eve would fall. I think He wants us to choose Him but He will not force someone to. By that I mean I think it IS our choice God just knew what we would choose.

And how can you not think it is sad that certain people would be destined to go to hell? Not to sound terrible but what if one of your children were one of the people God chose at the beginning of time to suffer in hell? Isn't it terrible to think that there is nothing you can do about it?

So why did God make angels? And after that He made people? I just don't get why He would have given Adam a choice to eat or not to eat. And it's not that I see God as an observer, He just wants those who actually did choose Him to be rewarded with eternal life in Heaven.

Jen

I think you have already figured out the flaw in calvinism. they confuse foreknowing with controlling.As a logical consequence of this they have to view god as capricous,uncaring and misleading. They have no problem believing God created people especially for hell,anymore than they have in believing that they were so special God exempted them from the penalty of sin.
Bear in mind however that this is not a salvational issue.It is merely a disagreement about the "how"of salvation.

I do share the other posters concern about your husbands pastor. Encourage your husband to check what he says against the entirety of scripture."Proof texting" with out context can be very misleading,especially for a new believer.Remind him that he must always believe the word of God over that of any man if they are in conflict.

Jax

 

[jenlovesgod]

I have heard of Calvinists but didn't realize what it was.

I mean I know I learned about it in college but I didn't remember that is what they thought.

Thanks!

 

[UMP]

I suppose no such thing anymore than the calvinist would boast of being so special that God exempted him from the penalty of sin

My "calvinist" salvation is based solely on the work of Jesus Christ. How is the calvinists' "exemption from the penalty of sin" different than yours?

Please remember, I love God and have chosen Him. However, I place the foundation of that choice, and my actual willingness to do so in God alone, not in myself.
God MADE me willing.

Phil 2:
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[heymikey80]

I am not going to pretend that I am any expert here, I was just wondering about what you said when you said:

"I'll believe what the word of God teaches. If Mr. Smith is saved, it is all of God, from start to finish."

My husband was talking last night about how everything is already decided for us anyway, so why pray unless you are going to 1) praise God or 2) just ask for God's will to be done.

Um, I get heartburn whenever I hear this. I'm glad later postings expand on the fact that it's your relationship with God, not asking God for things, that is important in prayer.

Either we submit to God or we don't. And when is non-submission to God a good thing?

 

[heymikey80]

I think you have already figured out the flaw in calvinism. they confuse foreknowing with controlling.As a logical consequence of this they have to view god as capricous,uncaring and misleading. They have no problem believing God created people especially for hell,anymore than they have in believing that they were so special God exempted them from the penalty of sin.

You say the thing that is not so.

Hence it clearly appears that those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:

--that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold of Satan where he lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;

--that this teaching makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism;

--that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;

--that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.
Canons of Dordt, 1618​

What you've stated is false. I get tired of hearing it after 500 years. It's no more the truth then than now.

 

[heymikey80]

The problem here is that the understanding you present is not the same understanding that the people then would have gotten from these words. The problem is that God does not lie and your understanding places him into the position of lying to those people at that time.

I must point out, you've now changed theories of semantics.

Either God is telling people truths within limits of what they can understand and within the limits of what He seeks to accomplish by telling them -- or God is telling them everything without reservation.

My point here is the former.

At which point the argument you're proposing really doesn't accomplish what it intends.

The words of God, consistent with the purposes of an accomplishing, purposeful communication, are Calvinistic.

If you have a specific question bring it back up.

 

[heymikey80]

I'll probably regret not readin the rest of your post or anyone elses, but where's the glory in God purposely making certain people glorify Him?

Uh, projecting this over human realities, where's the glory in humans actually accomplishing something with their abilities? Should Edison be commended for accomplishing his inventions?

You can't make someone love you and I think God knows this.

I'm utterly amazed when people say this. Of course humans can't make other humans love them.

But God isn't limited to humanity.

Humans don't make their own wills.

But God does.

If the Creator of this universe, God, is love, then we've got a lot to learn about how this all works. And it would be absurd to think we can love without God, if God is love.

It doesn't make any sense that God would have let Adam fall then. If He made us JUST to glorify Him why not leave everyone in the garden?

Is it loving to leave those whom you love the way they are? Isn't there some point about love being transforming to us humans?

How's that transformation work if we're not really aware of the depth of love given to us?

God knew Adam and Eve would fall. I think He wants us to choose Him but He will not force someone to. By that I mean I think it IS our choice God just knew what we would choose.

I think it IS our choice and God RE-CREATED (ie, "made", not "forced") us to do so, but not with force, with the transforming power of the Spirit of God.

And how can you not think it is sad that certain people would be destined to go to hell? Not to sound terrible but what if one of your children were one of the people God chose at the beginning of time to suffer in hell? Isn't it terrible to think that there is nothing you can do about it?

Sure. It is. It's terrible. It's reality. It's the truth. It's not evil, though.

It is horrific. If I could convert one person by crawling on my hands and knees over hot coals I'd do so. My burns would pass with my passing. But theirs would last forever.

But that's the point. I would follow the Spirit wherever He takes me to those He will save. He brings them to life, not me.

So why did God make angels? And after that He made people? I just don't get why He would have given Adam a choice to eat or not to eat. And it's not that I see God as an observer, He just wants those who actually did choose Him to be rewarded with eternal life in Heaven.

Doesn't that leave us with the tyranny of our own limited knowledge? With free will God essentially doesn't assist the one good thing we can choose. Plus, God doesn't inform us in every way He knows He could. How is that compassionate, to leave your three-year-old in the midst of the jungle, and tell him to choose the right path to get outta there?

It doesn't even make God a Savior.

But doesn't seem terrible that God created certain people specifically to go to hell? Why did he create people to begin with? I thought (again I am definately no expert) He created us to have free will to choose Him, but if He has already decided who gets to go to heaven what's the point? I guess I look at it as He lets us decide what we will choose, but He knew what we would choose before he created us.

Then wouldn't it be just as cruel to create those He knew would choose against us. Job's response would be truth: "I should never have been born!"

So if He already picked the people He would let into heaven it seems pointless to try to help others find God orJesus because He may have already sentenced them to hell.

Picking and knowing are the same. If God already knows, why try to help others? God already knows.

... it turned into an idea that Satan exists in our mind...and that "the bottomless pit" is our mind. And that if you go to hell it is not like an actual place where you are burning and suffering but the actual "suffering" is just the fact that you cannot be in heaven.

Again, I am probably not doing a great job explaining their idea, but this is really the main reason I wanted to join this site because I do not know all the Bible verses and I figured that someone here might be able to give me a good idea or a way to show him something different. Sometimes I really question his "pastor" who is a wonderful man but never even went to Seminary, he just went through a series of in-depth classes at a church and is now branching off from their views and following a "Kingdom" message and I feel like he doesn't know what he is talking about most of the time, and it just infuriates me that he takes what this guy says as goespel all of the time.

Hell is "both / and" intense suffering for evil and the absence of a relationship with God.

The pastor is probably making the point that, if you can't get at the concept of Hell from one side, get at it from the other. This is CS Lewis' approach as well. Ultimately, if we truly believe that suffering is soothed with the knowledge that God means more to us than any suffering, then we have to admit that the worst part of Hell is the absence of God, not the intensity of suffering.

But both exist in Hell. The story of the rich man and Lazarus comes to mind. So does the punishment of evil throughout Scripture, Rom 1:18, Mt 25:41, Mt 18:18, Jude :13, Heb 10:29

 

[jax5434]

43683090My "calvinist" salvation is based solely on the work of Jesus Christ. How is the calvinists' "exemption from the penalty of sin" different than yours

In application none. As I sais earlier this is not a "salvational" issue. In understanding however you believe you were"made Exempt" (not a very good term but since i first used it I"ll continue with it) prior to the work of Christ, and made necessary because God authored the sin which seperated us from him.The cross then was just " for show" to mislead people into thinking that God loves all of his creation when in reality he loves only some.

However, I place the foundation of that choice, and my actual willingness to do so in God alone, not in myself.
God MADE me willing.

I do not doubt that you love God.Nor do I cast any doubt on your salvation.Though I realize that you do not mean it so Your statement could be seen as "God made ME willing".Either way the same question arises. Why you? Was their a reason God chose you, or did you just win a lottery ticket into heaven?

Phil 2:
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

[/quote] The question is how God chooses to work His will in us. By your own statement you love God only because He made you do so. Is this the kind of love that God desires?

Jax

 

[ReformedChapin]

The question is how God chooses to work His will in us. By your own statement you love God only because He made you do so. Is this the kind of love that God desires?

Jax

We have no idea why God does everything. He makes it more than clear that he choose is elect for his won Good pleasure. Even in the arminian system , He made you the way you are and placed you were you are at. Why on earth would you choose him? Arbitrary choice? Can't be intellgence, can't be culture, can't our feelings (if it was then it would be arbitrary as well). In the end it's the same a mistery. We cannot understand why God choose to give grace to some and no to others. Make sure you ask him after the ressurection.

 

[jax5434]

I must point out, you've now changed theories of semantics.

How so? In fact I have never viewed this as a semantical issue.

Either God is telling people truths within limits of what they can understand and within the limits of what He seeks to accomplish by telling them -- or God is telling them everything without reservation.
My point here is the former.

A couple of questions.

What then is God seeking to accomplish in the verses I cited?

How does this in anyway bear on my arguement? If their understanding is limited it is because He limited it. Since they did not know their understanding is limited they believed that what God said was what He meant.If God did not really mean what he said then He was misleading them. The issue is not what understanding you take from these words today,but what understanding those people at that moment would take from god's words.

At which point the argument you're proposing really doesn't accomplish what it intends.

The arguement remains the same. Are God's word true,or only half true? Did jesus say "I am the way,the half truth,and the life?"

The words of God, consistent with the purposes of an accomplishing, purposeful communication, are Calvinistic.

So as long as the communication is purposeful it doesn't matter if their misleading?

If you have a specific question bring it back up.[/

The specific question is still this. Does God lie?

jax