I do not want to see decent people who do not have the Catholic cross excluded from discussions and debates on general issues. Nor do I want to see anybody excluded from discussions or even debates about church teaching as long as their contributions are not attempts to tear down what the church teaches. It would be a shame to lose people like LoAmmi and Antigone; they are positive contributors who benefit us all.
I do not want a Baptist to come in here and make threads telling us what we should do
this is a Catholic subforum
I might have misunderstood the meaning of a "no" because I thought it was a vote for keeping the simple affirmation of the creeds (Apostles and Nicene) as the statement of faith. I am all for the creeds. But I don't want anybody to get booted out of OBOB just because they want to discuss some political or news issue and don't have a Catholic cross. That'd be a real shame.Kind of confused as to your vote then, because you voted the opposite way.
I might have misunderstood the meaning of a "no" because I thought it was a vote for keeping the simple affirmation of the creeds (Apostles and Nicene) as the statement of faith. I am all for the creeds. But I don't want anybody to get booted out of OBOB just because they want to discuss some political or news issue and don't have a Catholic cross. That'd be a real shame.
Can I change my vote?
you have allways been most respectfulI believe you may be mistaken about what is being said. Nobody can come here and tell you anything against Church teaching or that you shouldn't be a Catholic whether this change happened or not. It would mean that someone who is not a Catholic could discuss freedom of speech with a Catholic but have a differing point of view.
If you are against that, I completely understand.
Do that please. Change my vote to a vote that supports non-catholic cross bearers being able to debate for or against any topic except Authoritative Church Teaching.I can note your vote changed. Basically no change is that no one can debate anything in OBOB even if it is not related to Catholic dogma.
Yes means they can have discussions where they have a counterpoint if the issue is not a matter of Authoritative teaching.
And the options are no change, change it general and political area, change it in only one or the other.
Do that please. Change my vote to a vote that supports non-catholic cross bearers being able to debate for or against any topic except Authoritative Church Teaching.
I believe you may be mistaken about what is being said. Nobody can come here and tell you anything against Church teaching or that you shouldn't be a Catholic whether this change happened or not. It would mean that someone who is not a Catholic could discuss freedom of speech with a Catholic but have a differing point of view.
If you are against that, I completely understand.
you have allways been most respectful
and I do love when people come here and fellowship or ask questions
also, it is understood that some Catholics do not use the Catholic Icon because they prefer the black Christian Cross icon
that is also ok
but I do have a problem with Protestants and/or lapsed Catholics coming into OBOB and debating
because then the thing will be "is this a Church teaching that they are debating or just something that happens to be popular with Catholics that they are debating"
or they will debate Politics with us
they HAVE their own forums!
a Baptist Forum, a Lutheran Forum, a Liberal Forum
let us have our forum
I normally do not report people, but i think that it is good to have this as a rule so it can be delt with easily if it does get out of hand
so many times I have seen members of the EO come in to OBOB and debate
LoAmmi, I have always felt that you have posted as one who fellowships, and I really, really like your posts because of that--they inform and do not prosyeltize. That wouldn't change, as far as I can see. However this is an oasis for Catholics--one where other Catholics understand where we are coming from and that our Faith intergrates *every* part of our lives. We don't even need to defend it. It is just known. Our Faith will color what we say. I would hate to see that end in the name of "tolerance" and "freedom of speech". I really fear that we would not only be seeing many different Faith icons, we would be subject to prosyeltizing, and OBOB would no longer be a peaceful oasis for most of us.
I have a question then, what about when the non-Catholic or lapsed Catholic is the one defending authoritative teaching.
Should they be given a violation then for debating?
The change would mean this: A post that opposed Catholic teaching or mocks Catholics would be a violation no matter who makes it...Catholic or not. A post that supported or did not oppose Catholic teaching or mock Catholics would not be a violation...no matter who makes it, Catholic or not.
Right now, as written non-Catholics can fellowship but they can not debate any issue in OBOB; even if it not opposing dogma or teaching. That is as written.
In practice the members have let many people debate issues that are not dogma or teaching. Some of these threads have gone on hundreds of posts and no reports. No problems.
Then at other times someone beats someone in an argument and blam...report because they are non-Catholic. Or someone just does not like someone and reports them while have no trouble with other non-Catholics doing the same thing. At times non-Catholics are even being given warnings for defending the Catholic faith from the Catholics who are opposing it.
So I have a poll, do you want to make the SOP fit the practice and non-Catholics can engage in some debate here as long as it does not oppose dogma or teaching. Or do you want strict enforcement of no debate on anything only fellowship.
If you want to loosen it...do you want it for the main area and the political area or just the political area.
Because it can not continue in inconsistency and spite being how it is decided who is given what privilege and not.
Remember this is not about dogma and teaching. People can not in any way oppose what is proclaimed by the Magisterium or mock Catholicism. And Abortion can never be promoted.
This concerns debating issues that are not Teaching.
So only Catholics vote in the poll. Do not make the thread a battle ground. Vote. If you want to...post stating your opinion.
But currently it is more of a who we like and who we don't to report them and that is not going to continue. Either you allow respectful debate on issues of non-Dogma and Teaching or we do not. We do not allow it for some and not for others.
the change would read (highlighted):
if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues that are Dogma or Authoritatively taught by the Magisterium or teach against Catholic theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.It currently reads:
if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.
Problem #1: Where do we go to discuss and debate Catholic teachings if not here? It sounds like there will be no debate here at all, since no one will be able to dispute any "official" Catholic teaching, whether they are Catholic or not. And you shut down the "Table of the Lord" sub-forum, effectively discouraging any freedom of speech regarding many issues that millions of Catholics (including the ordained, scholars and theologians) are discussing.
Problem #2: I agree with your point that sometimes Catholics and non-Catholics who argue FOR actual Church teaching are reported by those who think they are in tune with current Catholic teaching but are not, and condemn someone for defending current teaching against the Catholic position from the Council of Trent. And many people interpret that teaching, such as found in the Catechism, differently. So who is to decide what the actual and correct teaching of the Church is, and therefore what is allowed here?
Problem #3: Who is a member of this faith group? People can self-report what they will. Some people are in the process of entering the Catholic Church or exploring it, but are not yet full members. What about them? Some Catholics choose not to identify themselves as such in their on-screen profile (me, for example); will they be shut out as well?
Problem #4: Almost everything in the Church is covered by a dogma, doctrine or rule of some kind, so what would be left to discuss? The appropriate attire your children should wear to Mass? And people who discuss something may not know that the Church has a teaching about it; even a lot of Catholics are quite clueless about what their Church teaches. It sounds like instead of reducing the reporting and warnings, they will increase.
Problem #5: What does "post in fellowship" really mean?
Final Point: The Catholic Church has been spectacularly unsuccessful in controlling and limiting debate on "settled" doctrinal topics; I doubt that this forum will have better success, unless the members are restricted to only those who think exactly alike. And that will make it about as interesting, informative and exciting as a basket weavers' forum.
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