Question on the Holy Spirit and Biblical Interpretation

[The Liturgist]

Just a quick word of caution here. The Holy Spirit is one of three persons of the Holy Trinity along with the Father and the Son. He is not the spirit of Jesus.

In 1 Pet 1 the third person of the Godhead is in fact referred to as "the Spirit of Christ"

To clarify this issue while avoiding Nestorianism and Arianism and Pneumatomacchianism, and all other errors concerning Christology and the Trinity, let us just review a few maxims:

1. God exists in three coeternal and coessential persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Father unoriginate, the Son and Holy Spirit uncreated
2. The Only Begotten Son and Word of God, Jesus Christ, is God Incarnate as we see in John 1:1-18 ,and is begotten of the Father before all ages, as we see from the same, and other verses. He is of one essence with the Father, and is also consubstantial with humanity, having in His incarnation without change, confusion, separation or division become fully man, by means of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, becoming impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Thus, Christ is consubstantial with God the Father according to His divinity and consubstantial with us according to His humanity (see the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon)
2A. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God, God the Son, and the Son of Man, the Only Begotten Word of God, by Whom All Things Were Made.
3. The Holy Spirit is the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who spoke by the Prophets, and is worshipped and glorified together with the Father and the Son.

So, since on the third item I just quoted the Nicene Creed, from the CF.com Statement of Faith, everything else just comes together if I quote that again for us:

Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

So, therefore, in conclusion, the Holy Spirit can be of Christ in the same way Christ can be of the Holy Spirit. They are both two persons of one Godhead. God is a unity of three persons existing in perfect love eternally, having created this universe, and everything in it, including space, time, the planet Earth, the human race, the angels, the Heavens and so on. We are created in the image of God and restored to that image from our fallen state by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, who trampled down death by death.

Jesus Christ is God, the Holy Spirit is God, the Father is God; Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but was sent to us by Christ to serve as our Paraclete and Comforter, on the Third Hour of the Feast of Pentecost in the year 33 Anno Domini, when he appeared to the Apostles as Tongues of Fire descending on them, breathing new life into the world, enabling the Church, the Body of Christ, to proceed with the Economy of Salvation.

 

[The Liturgist]

Did you mean to write Jesus Christ of Nazareth AND God the Father? That's the "we" Jesus spoke of rather than Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God the Father?

I have the Spirit of God in me which Jesus received from the Father and sent in His name and would represent the mind and presence of Christ Jesus in the believer. Hence Spirit of Christ. The eastern church still holds that the Spirit proceeds from the Father which I agree with but would add is only given through the Son and is sent in Jesus's name. Acts 2 -the Spirit Jesus poured out He received from the Father.

Fathers promise - In the last days I will pour out "My" Spirit...
Jesus-And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—The Spirit of truth.

The Spirit in me remains silent unless Jesus wills otherwise. (Speaks what He hears)

I believe you misunderstand what the Eastern Church teaches about the Holy Ghost, as my Eastern and Oriental Orthodox friends @GreekOrthodox @prodromos @dzheremi and @Pavel Mosko can confirm.

The Holy Spirit is not an attribute of Jesus Christ, but rather one of three divine persons of the Holy Trinity. The primary creed in the Eastern churches is the Nicene Creed (although there is a version, I suspect the original version, of what we mistakenly call the Athanasian Creed, without the filioque, which appears in some Eastern Orthodox prayer books), and it says this about the Holy Spirit:

We believe (in one God, the Father almighty...and in one Lord Jesus Christ...and) in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

So, it can be very helpful I think to remember you have God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, who are yet One God, the Holy Spirit and the Son being of one essence with the Father, uncreated and coeternal and coequal. The Father is unoriginate, and the uncreated Son and Holy Ghost are uncreated, and these three Persons share one essence, and as Metropolitan Kallistos Ware wrote, exist eternally in a union of perfect love, which we are called to iconographically emulate in our own relations with other humans, in our families, in the Church, and in Society as a whole.

 

[The Liturgist]

It is the Fathers deity that dwells in Jesus and in fact it was the Father living in Jesus doing His work.

It looks like you are making a specific Christological error rejected at the Council of Constantinople in 381 and incompatible with the Nicene Creed, called Apollinarianism. Basically, its the idea that Jesus Christ had a human body but a divine soul. The problem with this is it renders Christ neither fuooy God nor Human, but rather something else.

We have to reconcile John 14:10 with John 1:1-18, which makes it clear that Jesus Christ is also God, a fully divine person, and the correct interpretation comes through with John 10:30 - Christ and the Father are one, that is to say, God the Son is of one essence with God the Father, and likewise the Holy Spirit is of one essence with God the Father.

In becoming man, by the Virgin Mary, God the Son, Jesus Christ, also became of one essence with us, without change, confusion, division or separation, for as the ecumenical councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon affirmed, His humanity and His divinity were united in one hypostasis and one person, while remaining completely distinct and not intermixed or compounded.

 

[The Liturgist]

"the scriptures" - are my Bible.

The thing is, when the Noble Bereans searched the Scriptures, almost nothing which is now in your New Testament, including that very Epistle, had been written.

 

[The Liturgist]

So Jesus Christ of Nazareth is not God in the Flesh ? He does not hold the identity of Diety?
I do not subscribe to thus.
Thanks for sharing!

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is definitely God in the Flesh, holding the identity of Diety, so you are fully correct in subscribing to the traditional Christian doctrine of the Incarnation of Christ, which was the main controversy at the Council of Nicaea in 325 between the Christians and the Arians, where Athanasius defended Christianity, and later wrote a book, On The Incarnation, in which he systematically refutes the error Arius and his followers made.

Later, Athanasius became the Patriarch of Alexandria, and in 367 defined the 27 book canon of the New Testament in a letter to the bishops of the Egyptian church, and his canon was adopted by the year 500 as the standard by the other Christian churches around the world.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Is it time to count the number of Trinitarian and Christological heresies that have been presented here? Oy vey!

 

[Randy777]

It looks like you are making a specific Christological error rejected at the Council of Constantinople in 381 and incompatible with the Nicene Creed, called Apollinarianism. Basically, its the idea that Jesus Christ had a human body but a divine soul. The problem with this is it renders Christ neither fuooy God nor Human, but rather something else.

We have to reconcile John 14:10 with John 1:1-18, which makes it clear that Jesus Christ is also God, a fully divine person, and the correct interpretation comes through with John 10:30 - Christ and the Father are one, that is to say, God the Son is of one essence with God the Father, and likewise the Holy Spirit is of one essence with God the Father.

In becoming man, by the Virgin Mary, God the Son, Jesus Christ, also became of one essence with us, without change, confusion, division or separation, for as the ecumenical councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon affirmed, His humanity and His divinity were united in one hypostasis and one person, while remaining completely distinct and not intermixed or compounded.

The name Jesus "inherited" is mighty God. The Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact imprint of Gods being. Jesus is all that the Father is.

Col 1:19 Because in Him was pleased all the fullness to dwell. - Gifted and from the will of another.

It is the Father Deity in fullness that dwells in Jesus. In that context Jesus is God and He and the Father are one.

Jesus=>Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[The Liturgist]

The name Jesus "inherited" is mighty God. The Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact imprint of Gods being. Jesus is all that the Father is.

Col 1:19 Because in Him was pleased all the fullness to dwell. - Gifted and from the will of another.

It is the Father Deity in fullness that dwells in Jesus. In that context Jesus is God and He and the Father are one.

Jesus=>Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

What you are saying sounds like Arianism, which is not Christianity. What you need to do is read this CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums which explains, with Scriptural citations, the Christian faith as defined by our Statement of Faith on Christian Forums, which is the Nicene Creed and a few other critical elements added as a result of people not understanding them, specifically, for example, it is part of of the statement of faith that we do not argue against St. Paul being a valid Apostle or suggest his epistles do not belong in the New Testament canon. Bizarrely, there are people who think this, and the problem is if you take out St. Paul, its like taking out the doctrine of the Trinity, in that it guts the Gospel of Christ and the Christian religion, because the Epistles are not only in all probability the oldest part of the New Testament, but also critical for the exegesis of the Gospel message.

So please read and learn the Statement of Faith and the Scriptural References it provides. Also if you do affirm the Nicene Christian faith and the Trinity and the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the doctrine of the Incarnation, my apologies, because I am clearly not understanding you.

 

[The Liturgist]

Is it time to count the number of Trinitarian and Christological heresies that have been presented here? Oy vey!

Well I joined ChristianForums.com largely because it has the Nicene Creed as the statement of faith, and while I try to encourage people to reject, for example, Nestorianism, my view is that Nestorianism is still allowed under a literal interpretation of the Nicene Creed and is still recognizably Christian; indeed I myself was accidentally Nestorian in my youth because my Parochial school did not properly emphasize the fullness of their denominational beliefs, which were Lutheran, but rather they were kind of focused on the Old Testament, the Exodus in particular, and also on Sola Fide and Law vs. Gospel, although the Pastor worked to correct this, and taught us about the liturgical seasons, Christology, and so on; the problem was the curriculum in our religious ed textbooks was not well planned and all of the teachers, while loving, were not equally intelligent (but one of our teachers was amazing; I credit her with making me into every good thing I am). Ironically both doctrinaire Lutheran concepts I have since moved beyond, even though I love Lutheranism and I did love that school.

But to stress how much I love that school and what it did for me: We were shielded from a lot of the nastiness of 1970s culture. The whole time I was there no one ever hit me, which is remarkable for being in elementary school, and only on one occasion did any of the boys get in a fight, when there was an incident I think when I was in the third grade which was evocative in terms of the visual madness, in that practically every third grade boy other than myself (all four of them) were suddenly in the midst of what looked like a tornado, or the scenes involving the boys from the Walt Disney animated film Peter Pan, but no one was hurt, and we all remained friends; the pastor sat us all down to ask us our side of the story and really chewed out the instigator, but he was swiftly forgiven and when you consider a lot of Christian schools in the 1970s, including a Baptist school I nearly went to, used the paddle, the way everything including discipline was handled was very good.

 

[pdudgeon]

Are they both spirit filled believers, are they actually listening to the Spirit and is the difference beytween them important?

Some people say that demonstrating the gifts of the spirit is vitally important, others concider it unimportant.
Do these two views matter?

Yes to both questions.
Here's the difference: yes, demonstrating ( and having it confirmed) is important because the Spirit of God is One Spirit, not divided against itself, but always united with God.
So if there is a difference between believers on Spiritual matters, it is because of three possible things:
1. What they were taught.
2. Are they listening to the Spirit?
3. Are they submitted to the Spirit?
And that's the order in which anyone should handle disagreements about what the Spirit says/does.
And remember one last thing.
Check everything that you see or hear, with the Holy Spirit that is within you before agreeing with it.

 

[Albion]

What you are saying sounds like Arianism, which is not Christianity. .

Maybe Swedenborgianism?

 

[klutedavid]

To clarify this issue while avoiding Nestorianism and Arianism and Pneumatomacchianism, and all other errors concerning Christology and the Trinity, let us just review a few maxims:

1. God exists in three coeternal and coessential persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Father unoriginate, the Son and Holy Spirit uncreated
2. The Only Begotten Son and Word of God, Jesus Christ, is God Incarnate as we see in John 1:1-18 ,and is begotten of the Father before all ages, as we see from the same, and other verses. He is of one essence with the Father, and is also consubstantial with humanity, having in His incarnation without change, confusion, separation or division become fully man, by means of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, becoming impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Thus, Christ is consubstantial with God the Father according to His divinity and consubstantial with us according to His humanity (see the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon)
2A. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God, God the Son, and the Son of Man, the Only Begotten Word of God, by Whom All Things Were Made.
3. The Holy Spirit is the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who spoke by the Prophets, and is worshipped and glorified together with the Father and the Son.

So, since on the third item I just quoted the Nicene Creed, from the CF.com Statement of Faith, everything else just comes together if I quote that again for us:

Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

So, therefore, in conclusion, the Holy Spirit can be of Christ in the same way Christ can be of the Holy Spirit. They are both two persons of one Godhead. God is a unity of three persons existing in perfect love eternally, having created this universe, and everything in it, including space, time, the planet Earth, the human race, the angels, the Heavens and so on. We are created in the image of God and restored to that image from our fallen state by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, who trampled down death by death.

Jesus Christ is God, the Holy Spirit is God, the Father is God; Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but was sent to us by Christ to serve as our Paraclete and Comforter, on the Third Hour of the Feast of Pentecost in the year 33 Anno Domini, when he appeared to the Apostles as Tongues of Fire descending on them, breathing new life into the world, enabling the Church, the Body of Christ, to proceed with the Economy of Salvation.

How does the Nicene Creed not mention the word, 'grace', even once?

The word, 'grace', is mentioned around 114 times in the New Testament.

It is probably the most important single word in the New Testament.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

How could the Nicene Creed neglect the very word that explains the gift of God, to the underserving. A seriously flawed creed.

You are saved by the grace of God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Maybe Swedenborgianism?

Didn’t Swedenborg actually claim to be the Second Coming?

However I think you are technically correct in terms of the theological construct itself, if we set aside all of the additional revelational and soteriological aspects of Swedenborgianism.

As a man with Swedish American ancestry, Swedenborg really embarrasses me both because of his name and his founding a cult; I just have to think “well at least we had Buxtehude” Danish and Norwegian members who we Swedes have a rivalry with over which nations’ MorMors make the best meatballs, since Danish and Norwegian meatballs as well as Swedish meatballs are exquisite and all are slightly different, each in a specific way, will doubtless understand my uncharitable wish that he had been named “Daneborg” or “Norskberg” (or however one would have the equivalent of Swedenborg in Nynorsk or Bokmal; also, why is the guy named Swedenborg and not Sverigeborg? It seriously makes it worse that his name features the English name of the country, since at least you know people might not recognize it otherwise.

Conversely Danish members know I have serious Soren Kierkegaard-envy, and Norway has this incredible seafood soup usually made with scallops, which can also include clams, salmon and other fish, in a cream stock like Boston Clam Chowder, but without any pesky potatoes. A dream of mine is actually to combine them, since the Norwegians do not tend to have it with crushed pepper or the acoutrements of clam chowder we have in America.

 

[The Liturgist]

How does the Nicene Creed not mention the word, 'grace', even once?

The word, 'grace', is mentioned around 114 times in the New Testament.

It is probably the most important single word in the New Testament.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

How could the Nicene Creed neglect the very word that explains the gift of God, to the underserving. A seriously flawed creed.

You are saved by the grace of God.

Because everyone agreed we are saved by the grace of God.

The creed was drawn up to defend the portions of the Christian faith which were attacked by Arius, and later expanded to defend against the portions which were attacked by the very closely related cults known as the Semi Arians, Pneumatomacchians, Adoptionists and Apollinarians.

And the whole point there is basically, the denial of the Trinity or the deity of Christ causes one to worship a different God.

The Creed is not supposed to be the Statement of Faith entire, or replace the Bible; it does not even define the canon of Scripture. It was rather intended specifically as a confession of who God was and what He did that was a specific act of Grace; that we are saved by grace is evident and implied from the words of the Creed and does not need to be stated.

And there has never been a cult, heresy, sect or heterodoxy in the history of Christianity that denies the salvific nature of divine grace. Even Pelagius believed in grace to a limited extent.

 

[Albion]

Didn’t Swedenborg actually claim to be the Second Coming?

He claimed that it happened during the 1750s and he was a special witness to it.

Swedenborg held that the doctrine of the Trinity amounted to tri-theism and said that Jesus Christ was the only God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ah so he was semi-Sabellian or Modalist it sounds like?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This is mainly for protestants as the High Church folk believe that the Spirit guides their church hierarchy into all truth rather than the individual. What I do not understand and would like a well-reasoned answer to is that if the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth then why do two genuinely Spirit-filled believers come to differing interpretations of the Bible and theology? Related to this, why do genuinely Spirit-filled believers seem to come to interpretations that are objectively wrong? How does the Holy Spirit guide believers into truth and what role do reason, study, and Biblical scholarship play in all of this?

I think for the same reason that four Gospel writers wrote about the same life of Jesus in four different ways.

 

[The Liturgist]

He claimed that it happened during the 1750s and he was a special witness to it.

Swedenborg held that the doctrine of the Trinity amounted to tri-theism and said that Jesus Christ was the only God.

Ah ok, thank you for clarifying that for me. I love and admire your posts so much, Albion, because you provide so much useful information, and you also represent so splendidly traditional liturgical Protestantism. You’re a 1928 BCP guy, right?

 

[Albion]

Ah so he was semi-Sabellian or Modalist it sounds like?

That's probably correct to say, but with a lot more mysticism.

 

[Albion]

You’re a 1928 BCP guy, right?

Oh yes.

And thanks for the kind words.