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Question on Scripture in Matthew and Ephesians

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DawnTillery

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In Matthew 12:40 - I am assuming Jesus is talking about Hell?
In Ephesians 4:7-10 (read further if you wish)
Where i talks about the "ONE" who does ascend also decended.
He lead captives (those in hell?) in his train and gave gifts unto men?
I am assuming he gave those in hell the chance to accept salvation?
If they did they went with Jesus?

I would really like to hear your opinions on this.
 
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DawnTillery

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My basic thought on this was a little over the edge, but still same principle. Those awaiting (going to heaven or to hell) was given a chance to accept salvation? Why when it talks about lazarus and the rich man -- The Rich man was in Hell and Lazarus was in the Bosom of Abraham?





PaladinValer said:
Jesus is referring to sheol, not hell. Sheol is the abode of the dead; where all our souls will go to upon death.

Upon the Resurrection of Jesus, the righteous dead were also Resurrected and ascended to heaven.
 
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DawnTillery

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PaladinValer said:
Jesus is referring to sheol, not hell. Sheol is the abode of the dead; where all our souls will go to upon death.

Upon the Resurrection of Jesus, the righteous dead were also Resurrected and ascended to heaven.

I dont know if I agree with the last sentence. Do you have some scripture, if what your saying is true. .then there are two raptures?
I havent seen that in my Bible. Thanks
 
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PaladinValer

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DawnTillery said:
My basic thought on this was a little over the edge, but still same principle. Those awaiting (going to heaven or to hell) was given a chance to accept salvation?

Once you are dead, your eternal fate is basically sealed. Those who've been faithful and true to God's sight will be Judged worthy of heaven and those who haven't will go to hell. Is it possible God will give a soul one last chance? I don't know; the evidence for this idea while souls are in sheol is nill. The very fact however that our God is literally chuck-full of mercy however gives hope to those who will be found unworthy; perhaps at the Judgment, He might give a person "one last chance" to accept Truth or to confess. Then again, this is all up to God.

Why when it talks about lazarus and the rich man -- The Rich man was in Hell and Lazarus was in the Bosom of Abraham?

Soul is divided into two areas: hades and paradise (also called "Abraham's Bosom"). Upon death, souls are given a "particular judgment" to decide whether they will wait in paradise or hades. Paradise is for the seemingly faithful, while hades is for the seemingly unfaithful (notably, most likely most non-Christians or Christians who died in grave sin). However, this doesn't mean that all in paradise go to heaven and all in hades go to hell. Jesus makes it clear in the Gopsel according to St. Matthew 25:31-46, St. Paul makes it clear in his Letter to the Romans 1:18-23, and the ECF like St. Justin Martyr and others in Holy Tradition make it clear that many who do go to hades will probably end up in heaven. Likewise, many who seemed to be faithful were, in reality, wrong in either behavior or doctrine, and could go to hell.

The rich man in the parable went to hades, while Lazarus went to Abraham's Bosom. Both places are meant to be a "foretaste" of the real heaven and hell, but they are not the same.

I dont know if I agree with the last sentence. Do you have some scripture, if what your saying is true. .then there are two raptures?
I havent seen that in my Bible. Thanks

There is no "rapture" in the chiliast/Dispensationalist/premillennialist idea. That was declared heresy a long, long time ago.

The fact that there are saints in heaven assumes that Jesus took up the righteous, including Moses, the Prophets, the righteous and those kings who repented (Manasseh, for example), and all other Jews (and Gentiles if they followed the Noahide Covenant, to which was with all people) who were decided to be righteous to God. Shoul has filled up however since, and will not empty again until the Second Coming. This time, sheol will be emptied permanently and will disappear as there will no longer be a use for it.
 
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Edial

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DawnTillery said:
In Matthew 12:40 - I am assuming Jesus is talking about Hell?
In Ephesians 4:7-10 (read further if you wish)
Where i talks about the "ONE" who does ascend also decended.
He lead captives (those in hell?) in his train and gave gifts unto men?
I am assuming he gave those in hell the chance to accept salvation?
If they did they went with Jesus?

I would really like to hear your opinions on this.
There are actually 2 "hells" that the Scriptures talk about. 2 distinctly different words.
1. Hades/Sheol (the immediate afterlife). It will last until the Great Judgement and then destroyed.
REV 20:11 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

2. Then there is the Lake of Fire - after the judgement.


Within the container of the Hades/Sheol there appears to be a place for "people of faith" of the OT. Some call it the Abraham's Bosom.

LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Jesus descended and emptied at least that "Abraham's Bosom" section.
Since Abraham is the "father of faith" it is reasonable to assume that people at his side were the departed OT "people of the faith".

Since they were waiting for (looking forwards to) the Messiah (Christos) from the "other side of the cross", it appears that the Christ identified himself to them and collected them to the heaven.

Since that time the heaven was open for the masses.

However, you might also be pointing to the idea whether it is possible to be saved from the other section of the Hades/Sheol.

I had studied this topic diligently and will state that there are no verses that state that one cannot be saved from the Hades/Sheol.
Yet there are verses that state that one can be saved from the Hades/Sheol.

Thanks,
Ed

 
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Edial

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PaladinValer said:
Except that Sheol was never considered to be "hell" to the Jews.
Irrelevant really, since Hades is not considered to be hell either.

These were just translations and I enquoted the word hell.

Ed
 
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Rapha

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DawnTillery said:
I dont know if I agree with the last sentence. Do you have some scripture, if what your saying is true. .then there are two raptures?
I havent seen that in my Bible. Thanks
There are two resurrections - the first to everlasting life, and the second to the Great White Throne judgment of the unrighteous who died without the covering of Jesus' blood.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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Adoniram

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Mt. 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In my opinion this verse refers to nothing more than that he was in the grave.

Eph. 4:7-10
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says: “When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.” 9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

This passage and the following pertain mainly to the various gifts which the Lord bestows on his faithful so that they might serve him.


As per the discussion on Jesus going into the lower parts of the earth, I know, but cannot find at the moment, that there is a verse somewhere in the NT that alludes to his ministering to the OT faithful, assuring them that their faith was/is not in vain and that he is the one to whom they looked forward to for salvation. If anyone is familiar with that verse, please help.
 
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DawnTillery

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Just cant agree with the fact that the "heart" of this Earth is the ground..

Sorry!



Adoniram said:
Mt. 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In my opinion this verse refers to nothing more than that he was in the grave.

Eph. 4:7-10
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says: “When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.” 9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

This passage and the following pertain mainly to the various gifts which the Lord bestows on his faithful so that they might serve him.


As per the discussion on Jesus going into the lower parts of the earth, I know, but cannot find at the moment, that there is a verse somewhere in the NT that alludes to his ministering to the OT faithful, assuring them that their faith was/is not in vain and that he is the one to whom they looked forward to for salvation. If anyone is familiar with that verse, please help.
 
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Edial

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Adoniram said:
Mt. 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In my opinion this verse refers to nothing more than that he was in the grave.
But the language does not agree with that.
In the case of Jonah, he was in Sheol (although some translations say "grave"). There is a different Hebrew word for grave, which is kevar.
Therefore, "the heart of the earth" should also point to the Sheol/Hades.

Adoniram said:
Eph. 4:7-10
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says: “When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.” 9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

This passage and the following pertain mainly to the various gifts which the Lord bestows on his faithful so that they might serve him..
True. However, the OP was probably pointing to "the lower, earthly regions", which is somehow "below the earth".
Phil.2 also captures a certain "under the earth term" -

PHP 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, PHP 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,


Adoniram said:
As per the discussion on Jesus going into the lower parts of the earth, I know, but cannot find at the moment, that there is a verse somewhere in the NT that alludes to his ministering to the OT faithful, assuring them that their faith was/is not in vain and that he is the one to whom they looked forward to for salvation. If anyone is familiar with that verse, please help.
The verse that you probably mean is -

1PE 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


Thanks,
Ed
 
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