Question on Predestination

[SeRapH&CheRi]

Let me see, that was 28 hours and 35 minutes...

....but who's counting right?? STALKER! LOL!

 

[rnmomof7]

Like Behe's Boy, I am fairly new to the reformed doctrines and in truth, my head feels like it's going to explode with trying to comprehend the ordo salutis. A good friend of mine is a Calvinist who attends Westminster Seminary and does a great job in explaining the reformed doctrine to me. The whole concept of free will vs. predestination is something that I go back and forth with. In fact, I really struggle with the whole concept of election and the fact that God chooses those to come to faith in Him. I grew up with the whole Armenian (sp?) frame of thought, but am now currently attending a PCA church. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if God loves all, then how is it that He "elects" those to come to Him in faith?

I have only been a Calvinist a couple of years.
I fought very hard against it for a long time, but one night I was doing my bible reading and it jumped off the pages at me. Suddenly i started to see it clearly in scriptures where i had never seen it .
It is in scripture. We just "choose" not to see it.

The foundational difference is that Arminianism believes that man is good enough that God owes them a "chance"

Calvinism says man is only worthy of judgment . If God is 'fair" then every one of us belong in Hellsfire.

Read John 6 , that is the great predestination and election chapter. It is foundational


Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


There is a real sense of peace in the doctrine of predestination and election.
We know that indeed it is god that works all things together for the good for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose

He directs the steps of a righteous man , He hold us and keeps us as the author and finisher of our faith.

There is a great peace in allowing God to be God and praising Him for it >


I will suggest 2 books to you that explain it well.

Chosen by God ( sproul)

And
Putting the amazing back into grace (Horton)

 

[RobNJ]

The short & overly simple balace of predestination & free will:
YOU might have agonized long and hard to reach a decision, it might have been a shocker for YOU & those around you....GOD already knew

I figure that if I belive in God that is (among other things) Omniscient & Omnipotent..... Ya think I can actually put one over on Him??? NOT LIKELY!!

 

[SeRapH&CheRi]

I have only been a Calvinist a couple of years.
I fought very hard against it for a long time, but one night I was doing my bible reading and it jumped off the pages at me. Suddenly i started to see it clearly in scriptures where i had never seen it .
It is in scripture. We just "choose" not to see it.

The foundational difference is that Arminianism believes that man is good enough that God owes them a "chance"

Calvinism says man is only worthy of judgment . If God is 'fair" then every one of us belong in Hellsfire.

Read John 6 , that is the great predestination and election chapter. It is foundational


Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


There is a real sense of peace in the doctrine of predestination and election.
We know that indeed it is god that works all things together for the good for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose

He directs the steps of a righteous man , He hold us and keeps us as the author and finisher of our faith.

There is a great peace in allowing God to be God and praising Him for it >


I will suggest 2 books to you that explain it well.

Chosen by God ( sproul)

And
Putting the amazing back into grace (Horton)

thanks rnmomof7! i appreciated your post and your input as i "wrestle" with predestination and election. a good friend of mine is a calvinist and he has lent me one of the books you suggested - sproul's "chosen by God". i am slowly reading through the book. anyway, this friend of mine has played an integral part as i've scrutinized predestination. this guy is nothing short of amazing as he can back it all up with scripture!

 

[tigersnare]

The short & overly simple balace of predestination & free will:
YOU might have agonized long and hard to reach a decision, it might have been a shocker for YOU & those around you....GOD already knew

 

[rnmomof7]

thanks rnmomof7! i appreciated your post and your input as i "wrestle" with predestination and election. a good friend of mine is a calvinist and he has lent me one of the books you suggested - sproul's "chosen by God". i am slowly reading through the book. anyway, this friend of mine has played an integral part as i've scrutinized predestination. this guy is nothing short of amazing as he can back it all up with scripture!

St Augustine and luther and all the reformers saw it in scripture.

It is not hard to "back up" because it is a biblical principle taught by Jesus and the disciples.

You know after I realized it was true , I remembered how many times i had been in a bible study where the instructor would try to explain away obvious predestination and election texts.

No need to explain them away , they are there , all we need to do is not try to reword Gods words:>)

Have a good search and study.

This doctrine is not a salvation issue, but it is one that helps us to understand the enormity and sovereignty of God .

We are not elect because we "chose Christ"

We "chose Christ " because we are elect.
God worked 1st

This is an old Reform question

Did Jesus die for


1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.



In which case it may be said:



1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?



You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

 

[tigersnare]

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Can you rephrase this for my feable mind? I want to understand, as I have been coming up against this answer alot from a group of Charasmatics that have taken a liken to me, for some strange reason.

 

[rnmomof7]

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

If unbelief is a sin, then Jesus dies for that sin too .
So why would that one sin not be forgiven if all the others have been?

If it is not forgiven , then Jesus did not really dies for all his sins

 

[tigersnare]

If unbelief is a sin, then Jesus dies for that sin too .
So why would that one sin not be forgiven if all the others have been?

If it is not forgiven , then Jesus did not really dies for all his sins

Beautiful, thank you!

 

[rnmomof7]

Beautiful, thank you!

Don't thank me, thank an old Puritan named Owen I believe :>)

 

[tigersnare]

Don't thank me, thank an old Puritan named Owen I believe :>)

Haha, I need to read some of those guys. I gotta finish the surface stuff though, almost done with Sproul's Chosen by God.

 

[rnmomof7]

Haha, I need to read some of those guys. I gotta finish the surface stuff though, almost done with Sproul's Chosen by God.

Are you liking it? he is one of my favorite writers.

i strongly suggest 'Putting the Amazing back into grace " by Michael Horton .

It can be bought used on Amazon (that is where i get most of my books ).

His study is an easy read and reader friendly , Longer than CBG , with a deeper look into the reformation doctrine

 

[tigersnare]

Are you liking it? he is one of my favorite writers.

I'm loving it! I finally understand how John 6:44 is a very bold statement for depravity and election.

 

[rnmomof7]

If you like him I would suggest " The holiness of God"

 

[tigersnare]

If you like him I would suggest " The holiness of God"

I will get around to reading it I'm sure, my Pastor who's office is next door, has a vast library of Reformed Guys, Puritans, and the other side's books.

My library currently consist of, 5 Points of Calvinism by Steele & Thomas, and Calvin's Institues. They are on their way from Amazon as we speak!

 

[rnmomof7]

The Holiness of god is more reflective than doctrinal.
It is a good read for helping to have a clearer understanding of God.

I read it over an Easter Season for reflection